Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
01-20-23, 03:03 PM
#426
DVD Talk Special Edition
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by rw2516
The charges also presume any actor would have the knowledge and experience in firearms to determine if the gun is safe or not. What if Baldwin had checked the gun and as far as he could tell, with his knowledge, it was safe.
What if the particular gun had a clip with 32 rounds? Is it the responsibility of the actors to remove all 32 rounds in the clip, apply their very limited expertise in firearms to determine the rounds and gun are safe for discharge?
The opinion of “Every person that handles a gun has a duty to make sure that if they’re going to handle that gun, point it at someone and pull the trigger, that it is not going to fire a projectile and kill someone,” she said. She added, “An actor does not get a free pass just because they are an actor. That is what is so important. We are saying here in New Mexico, that everyone is equal under the law.” is an interesting one.
This law was written in the context of a firearms user being responsible for their own individual choices. In the unique context of an actor who is instructed by the director under the guidance of a firearms expert, this is certainly a good counter-argument.
Also, in the context of a movie where the firearm is in the care of an onset expert, does the gun become classified as a "prop" rather than a firearm?
Last edited by orangerunner; 01-20-23 at 04:21 PM.
01-20-23, 03:33 PM
#427
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by Decker
“The prosecutor’s contention that an actor has a duty to ensure the functional and mechanical operation of a firearm on a production set is wrong and uninformed,” says the statement. “An actor’s job is not to be a firearms or weapons expert. Firearms are provided for their use under the guidance of multiple expert professionals directly responsible for the safe and accurate operation of that firearm. In addition, the employer is always responsible for providing a safe work environment at all times, including hiring and supervising the work of professionals trained in weapons.”
01-20-23, 03:41 PM
#428
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Not sure. But the point is that it isn't the responsibility of the actor on set.
And if the fault lies at the feet of the Producers, it should be the responsibility of all of the producers. And really it's the responsibility of the Producers to makes sure they have an armorer on the set, which there was.
And if the fault lies at the feet of the Producers, it should be the responsibility of all of the producers. And really it's the responsibility of the Producers to makes sure they have an armorer on the set, which there was.
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GoldenJCJ (01-20-23)
01-20-23, 05:00 PM
#429
Moderator
Thread Starter
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by GoldenJCJ
So who is the “employer” that the SAG is referring to? Is that the producer? Director? Studio head? CEO of the armorer company?
From Wiki:
Responsible for overseeing all weapons on set was the production's property key assistant and armorer, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, daughter of long-time industry armorer Thell Reed.[6] Rust was Gutierrez-Reed's second film serving as lead armorer. On her first film, The Old Way, several crew members complained about her handling of firearms, including an incident in which she discharged a weapon without warning and caused lead actor Nicolas Cage to walk off set.[7]
David Halls was the assistant director. In the aftermath of the incident, former colleagues reported that Halls faced complaints in 2019 about his behavior on two episodes of Into the Dark, in which he disregarded safety protocols by ignoring blocked exits and a fire lane.[8][9] In the same year, Halls had been fired from working on the film Freedom's Path after a firearm discharged unexpectedly on set, wounding a crew member.[10][11]
On the set of the independent film One Way, a crew member warned producers about Halls's disregard for safety measures and said, "That man is a liability. He's going to fucking kill someone someday, and you're going to be responsible." However, the film's digital imaging technician disputes this claim, saying he knew Halls to be conscientious about safety.[12] The Hollywood Reporter reported a number of complaints raised during the production of 2019's The Tiger Rising, which also featured Rust executive producers Ryan Donnell Smith, Allen Cheney, Emily Hunter Salveson, and Ryan Winterstern.[13]
David Halls was the assistant director. In the aftermath of the incident, former colleagues reported that Halls faced complaints in 2019 about his behavior on two episodes of Into the Dark, in which he disregarded safety protocols by ignoring blocked exits and a fire lane.[8][9] In the same year, Halls had been fired from working on the film Freedom's Path after a firearm discharged unexpectedly on set, wounding a crew member.[10][11]
On the set of the independent film One Way, a crew member warned producers about Halls's disregard for safety measures and said, "That man is a liability. He's going to fucking kill someone someday, and you're going to be responsible." However, the film's digital imaging technician disputes this claim, saying he knew Halls to be conscientious about safety.[12] The Hollywood Reporter reported a number of complaints raised during the production of 2019's The Tiger Rising, which also featured Rust executive producers Ryan Donnell Smith, Allen Cheney, Emily Hunter Salveson, and Ryan Winterstern.[13]
I remember when this happened, some industry people were saying that because of the amount of content being produced these days, there just aren't enough people to crew for everything. Productions (especially small ones like this) will cut corners and hire people who don't know what they are doing.
Originally Posted by Decker
And if the fault lies at the feet of the Producers, it should be the responsibility of all of the producers.
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GoldenJCJ (01-20-23)
01-20-23, 05:01 PM
#430
DVD Talk Special Edition
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Someone else has probably already said this but I'm of the opinion that this DA is just using this to garner some publicity. Maybe she has some political aspirations or something and feels that by going after a well-known celebrity (and yes, a divisive one at that, even though I like him) will garner some goodwill with voters down the road (NOTE: I have no idea about her political leanings or anything like that, but it just seems like something a DA would do if they wanted to run for something like governor down the road). Like, it was pretty interesting that I think Baldwin's team found out about this from the media, and were notified like 15 minutes later (that's what they say, anyway), and yet the DA was all ready to go with a little sit-down interview with the press like right-away.
I also have to say that I think the case is pretty ridiculous to begin with; it's a tragedy all-around but I do not think you can say that Baldwin committed "involuntary manslaughter". And I wasn't sure what the pundits would say, but watching CNN and MSNBC and hearing various opinions from lawyers, gun experts, weapons safety experts, set weapon advisors (whatever they're called, I can't remember at the moment), and pretty much all of them said that this case really shouldn't go through, and it's hard to actually pin this on Baldwin. They almost all sounded pretty sure the case is going to be almost impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and they question why the DA would even attempt this (although, unlike myself they haven't really speculated on her motives; I will once more: publicity. That's the only way this makes sense to me...even though the whole thing is non-sensical). I probably listened to 12-15 different so-called "experts" yesterday and today, and I can't remember one of them saying these charges are legit...
That said, most do point out about those issues with safety on the set, and how that had been a pretty big issue. In which case, that doesn't justify going after Baldwin personally for this (and I know he's also a "producer", but like many of those pundits pointed out, as everyone knows, just because someone is named a "producer" on a movie doesn't mean they have actual "producing responsibilities"...as most know, almost every popular actor/actress becomes a producer on the movies they star in, and there's been many instances where people will give their spouse or their kid or their f**king nanny a "producer" credit).
I also have to say that I think the case is pretty ridiculous to begin with; it's a tragedy all-around but I do not think you can say that Baldwin committed "involuntary manslaughter". And I wasn't sure what the pundits would say, but watching CNN and MSNBC and hearing various opinions from lawyers, gun experts, weapons safety experts, set weapon advisors (whatever they're called, I can't remember at the moment), and pretty much all of them said that this case really shouldn't go through, and it's hard to actually pin this on Baldwin. They almost all sounded pretty sure the case is going to be almost impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and they question why the DA would even attempt this (although, unlike myself they haven't really speculated on her motives; I will once more: publicity. That's the only way this makes sense to me...even though the whole thing is non-sensical). I probably listened to 12-15 different so-called "experts" yesterday and today, and I can't remember one of them saying these charges are legit...
That said, most do point out about those issues with safety on the set, and how that had been a pretty big issue. In which case, that doesn't justify going after Baldwin personally for this (and I know he's also a "producer", but like many of those pundits pointed out, as everyone knows, just because someone is named a "producer" on a movie doesn't mean they have actual "producing responsibilities"...as most know, almost every popular actor/actress becomes a producer on the movies they star in, and there's been many instances where people will give their spouse or their kid or their f**king nanny a "producer" credit).
01-20-23, 05:03 PM
#431
Moderator
Thread Starter
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by Goonies85
In which case, that doesn't justify going after Baldwin personally for this (and I know he's also a "producer", but like many of those pundits pointed out, as everyone knows, just because someone is named a "producer" on a movie doesn't mean they have actual "producing responsibilities"...as most know, almost every popular actor/actress becomes a producer on the movies they star in, and there's been many instances where people will give their spouse or their kid or their f**king nanny a "producer" credit).
01-20-23, 05:34 PM
#432
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by Count Dooku
Pretty obvious neither of you will make it through jury selection.
Originally Posted by Decker
#1 : Presumption of Innocence
#2 : Do you feel like answering the question? Isn't a film director ultimately responsible for the actions on the set rather than the producer, who is the financial backer?
#2 : Do you feel like answering the question? Isn't a film director ultimately responsible for the actions on the set rather than the producer, who is the financial backer?
#1: The presumption of innocence for the purpose of a fair trail is a legal concept, and if you were called as a prospective juror, you would be asked if you could listen to the evidence and enter deliberations with that presumption in mind. However, if you were honest, when questioned, you would admit to have preconceptions about the case. For example, wondering why the director and other producers did not share the responsibility for the shooting that the prosecution is charging to Baldwin. They don't like jurors to come to the trial having already formulated counter-arguments to the prosecution's case.
#2: The director was one of the people shot. It seems like it would be very difficult to convince a jury that the director shared responsibility for the criminal negligence that led to his own shooting. I'm not saying it is not so, but that charging him does seem like a waste of time. But again, my mildly humorous observation was that by having already thought enough about the DA's charges to ask your question, you disqualified yourself from the jury.
Allow me to add, that I once helped out on the set of an independent movie shot here in Austin, and a responsibility of one of the producers was to make runs to Walmart for water and snacks, and to do the lunch runs. Some producers just write checks and others are hands on during production.
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Goonies85 (01-21-23)
01-20-23, 05:37 PM
#433
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
I seriously don't think George Clooney was running around the Argo set, making sure everything was safe and running smoothly on a day-to-day basis. Same for Brad Pitt for 12 Days a Slave, though both won Oscars for their participation.
I suspect that a lot of the work that credited producers do actually gets handled by production assistants on set.
I suspect that a lot of the work that credited producers do actually gets handled by production assistants on set.
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Goonies85 (01-21-23)
01-20-23, 05:39 PM
#434
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by dex14
Exactly. I don't understand why it is solely Baldwin.
01-20-23, 05:44 PM
#435
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by Count Dooku
Because he is the guy who was holding the gun, and folding his "producing responsibility" into the mix is an attempt to deflect from exactly what immediately happened when the charges were announced: SAG/AFTRA defending Baldwin by saying that actor's are not responsible for checking their prop firearms.
01-20-23, 06:33 PM
#436
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Since all the actors eat at craft services, is each one going to be responsible for checking to ensure correct food preparation was observed? Or just turn it into a daily potluck or BYOB. One less union to worry about. Next is getting rid of grips.
01-20-23, 07:44 PM
#437
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by General Zod
I would watch that.
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General Zod (01-20-23)
01-20-23, 08:08 PM
#438
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Charges are often announced against accused on shaky grounds and then dropped before it ever goes to trial. I bet this DA will let these charges simmer for a bit for publicity and then ultimately drop them with some kind of bullshit reasoning.
01-20-23, 10:03 PM
#439
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
I know the incompetent head armorer was also listed as being charged, as she should be, but would she have been charged if they weren't going after Baldwin? IMO if there's anyone that should be held criminally liable it would be her. But why wait until now and charge them at the same time?
01-21-23, 06:09 AM
#440
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Could be DA is feeling pressure to file charges from some faction. Her ass is covered when judge dismisses case. It won't be her fault.
01-21-23, 10:07 AM
#441
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by rw2516
Could be DA is feeling pressure to file charges from some faction. Her ass is covered when judge dismisses case. It won't be her fault.
Do they ever do that in a criminal case besides when a defendant's Civil rights are violated or when someone else confesses to or is convicted of the crime?
01-21-23, 10:16 AM
#442
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Great article published yesterday in Slate :
The Manslaughter Charges Against Alec Baldwin Truly Make No Sense
What reasons are prosecutors giving to support issuing this charge related to Baldwin’s role as a producer?
They’re saying that because he’s a producer, he’s in charge of the production, of set safety, of making sure that there’s enough personnel to be able to govern safety, [that] there’s no shortcuts in spending and corners cut, things like that. I’ll equate it to a premises liability type of situation, just that he was in charge of set safety.
There are other producers on the film. Why is he the only one being charged?
Listen, I think that’s a very problematic argument for the prosecution. First of all, “producer” is a credit. And you can get a producer credit or an executive producer credit for raising money, for making an introduction of a celebrity, for adding something to the film. And when it comes to producers, there are certain producers that have responsibility for the physical production of the film, [that are] in charge of the filming, the shooting, the locations, the editing, delivering and broadcast quality, print, etc. And there are other producers that have absolutely no responsibility whatsoever. They just got the credit. And a lot of times you will see Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt, superstars like that, they always have a producer credit or an executive producer credit because they’re just an actor in the film. And as part of their deal they want to get a credit.
So it is really presumptuous to just assume that because he’s a producer that he has any responsibility. Being a producer doesn’t mean you’re a partner, and it doesn’t mean you have the title, or level of responsibility, of production—that’s governed through the production agreements, through the operating agreement with the LLC that’s set up for the company, other things like that. I don’t know the details, but there is a strong chance that he’s credited as a producer because he’s an actor and that’s it. You know, sometimes his production company, even if they’re not doing anything, may even get him a banner credit. You just don’t know. But yeah, you really have to see what his role was as a producer to be able to pursue that theory under the prosecution.
They’re saying that because he’s a producer, he’s in charge of the production, of set safety, of making sure that there’s enough personnel to be able to govern safety, [that] there’s no shortcuts in spending and corners cut, things like that. I’ll equate it to a premises liability type of situation, just that he was in charge of set safety.
There are other producers on the film. Why is he the only one being charged?
Listen, I think that’s a very problematic argument for the prosecution. First of all, “producer” is a credit. And you can get a producer credit or an executive producer credit for raising money, for making an introduction of a celebrity, for adding something to the film. And when it comes to producers, there are certain producers that have responsibility for the physical production of the film, [that are] in charge of the filming, the shooting, the locations, the editing, delivering and broadcast quality, print, etc. And there are other producers that have absolutely no responsibility whatsoever. They just got the credit. And a lot of times you will see Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt, superstars like that, they always have a producer credit or an executive producer credit because they’re just an actor in the film. And as part of their deal they want to get a credit.
So it is really presumptuous to just assume that because he’s a producer that he has any responsibility. Being a producer doesn’t mean you’re a partner, and it doesn’t mean you have the title, or level of responsibility, of production—that’s governed through the production agreements, through the operating agreement with the LLC that’s set up for the company, other things like that. I don’t know the details, but there is a strong chance that he’s credited as a producer because he’s an actor and that’s it. You know, sometimes his production company, even if they’re not doing anything, may even get him a banner credit. You just don’t know. But yeah, you really have to see what his role was as a producer to be able to pursue that theory under the prosecution.
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Goonies85 (01-21-23)
01-21-23, 10:36 AM
#443
Senior Member
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by dsa_shea
Charges are often announced against accused on shaky grounds and then dropped before it ever goes to trial. I bet this DA will let these charges simmer for a bit for publicity and then ultimately drop them with some kind of bullshit reasoning.
01-21-23, 11:35 AM
#444
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by GoldenJCJ
I’m also fairly certain that those DA’s trying to make a name for themselves have pretty much guaranteed nobody will want to film a movie in NM ever again.
01-21-23, 11:44 AM
#445
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by northeast11
Maybe Baldwin pleas guilty to a lesser charge. Perhaps negligent homicide. As for why the DA pressed these charges, maybe she felt people would think Baldwin was given special treatment because of his fame if no charges had been brought against him.
01-21-23, 11:46 AM
#446
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by Nick Danger
That would suck. The state government has been working for over twenty years to make New Mexico good location for making TV and movies.
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Goonies85 (01-21-23)
01-21-23, 11:57 AM
#447
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by Count Dooku
Imagine when the defense has Cranston and Paul on the stand to testify that they never double-checked their guns on the set fo Breaking Bad.
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Toby Dramit (01-21-23)
01-21-23, 01:20 PM
#448
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by Nick Danger
Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Chevy Chase!
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Toby Dramit (01-21-23)
01-21-23, 01:29 PM
#449
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Originally Posted by General Zod
I guess your choosing to ignore the fact that he's a producer as well. It's very possible he was told there were dangers on the set and he didn't want to pony up the dough to ensure things were being done safely. If that happened - would he not bear some responsibility for this? As an actor only I agree and I've said from the start an actor being handed a prop shouldn't be responsible for something like this in my opinion.
Also the production did "pony up the dough" to ensure things were being done safely. They had an armorer on set whose main responsibility was to make sure that the prop guns were unloaded. She is also charged, and should face charges. The fact that no other producers face charges really weakens the argument that it's the producer's job to maintain safety on set. The director who instructed Baldwin to pick up a gun and point it at or near the camera should bear some responsibility as well, since nobody is debating that Baldwin was doing what the director told him to do.
Why nobody is being charged for bringing live ammo on the set, let alone shooting the prop gun during a lunch break (which was the initial story I read) just demonstrates what a terribly weak case this is.
01-21-23, 03:42 PM
#450
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
I feel some in here have a personal beef with Baldwin and it obscures how much he is responsible, he really isn't, in this unfortunate tragedy.
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