Runaway

That's right, the scene is awsome, but that's about it.

fujishig

Ah, ok.
Agreed that part 4 and returns are trash. For Returns in particular, though, I'd say it has more to do with them not only making a direct continuation of a decades old movie, but also changing Superman up, most notably the whole "abandon Earth for a few years" thing and the super stalker routine. Them continuing the old movies' fear of using the rest of Superman's rogue gallery didn't help.

I'm not saying Superman can't kill, I'm saying maybe don't do that in his first outing in the red and blue. But even beyond MoS I was willing to give Cavill's Superman a try going forward, since Pa Kent was gone and he was a full fledged superhero now, and instead of a Superman followup we got BvS which basically minimized the entire supporting cast of Superman (including the whole thing with Olsen) so that he could fight Batman, meet Wonder Woman, meet Lex, fight Doomsday, and die. I kind of feel like Cavill's Superman never really got a chance to shine, and even if this trilogy was made, he'd return from the dead in the first one and be evil in the second one, so I highly doubt we'd get a satisfying Superman story anywhere in there.

Why So Blu?

Returns also had Son of Superman shoehorned in. I agree to a certain extent that BVS rushed things, it had no choice but to do so. That's why a MOS 2 should have come after instead of BVS. I don't blame ZS for that, though. That was the studio. Also, I'm also sure that Christopher Nolan was no longer even participating at any capacity (executive producer credit only), like he did in MOS (MOS is even produced by Syncopy, Nolan's company).

IBJoel

One thing I think would have made a big difference in BvS is changing the trial. LET Superman tell his side. Allow the character to express some earnestness: "Hey, I just want to help people. I'm still new at this, I'm still learning, and I'm just a guy. I'm trying my best and I hope that I can be worthy of my name, not just physically, but in every way that matters."

Superman isn't boring, writers just forget that he's constantly living out the Overview Effect. He sees the world in the entire EM spectrum, hears plants growing, heartbeats, etc. There are tons of avenues to take that, but never should Superman be without a sense of wonder. Actually, an interesting idea would have been to dive deeper into his reaction to Zod's death (which I actually had no problem with). Not only did he kill the last other member of his race, but he would have experienced that on a different level than any human killing another person.

Then you can use that sense of wonder in contrast. Maybe just have Superman not die, but simply give up being Superman for a while. I've believed my whole life in great ideals of justice and freedom and helping others, but all I see everyday is war and maybe humans aren't worth saving and I should just enjoy my life. Snyder loves Biblical allusions, so pull from Ecclesiastes. Then at the end of the film, Batman regains his faith in humanity. JL could have the League trying to convince Superman that maybe you can't fix every problem, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to do something. But when you're going to subvert characterization, you have to do set up. Not of plot, not of origins, but of character and humanity.

fujishig

I'll agree with the point that it wasn't necessarily Superman killing Zod (though I still quibble that it shouldn't have been the first big thing he did as Superman) but rather the tepid reaction to it: the scream was fine, but then (IIRC) we cut to a comedic scene of Superman bringing down a surveillance satellite like nothing happened. I'm not expecting a full reenactment of Byrne's story where he exiles himself into space and then comes back with a fractured personality or anything, but like some self reflection or other effect would be nice, even the enactment of some set of codes he enacted for himself in response or something.

I'll admit, though, the picture of Snyder gleefully showing exactly how to snap the neck in that scene is always in my head when I watch it.

E Unit

Nevermind - scrapped post as it was posted yesterday for Fools Day.

Why So Blu?

To further clarify, Superman has been boring in the films leading up to MOS. As far as the comics go, I've probably read more Batman than Superman. The animated series is my favorite as to how they portray Superman in addition to his appearances in JL animated series and various other WB animated DTV films.

IBJoel

We're in agreement that Superman: The Animated Series is pretty f'n sweet. Ugh, now I want to watch the DCAU stuff haha.

Why So Blu?

I'm tempted since they're all on HBO MAX.

MysterioMan007

The DCAU is almost my favorite thing ever. Batman: The Animated Series, Superman: The Animated Series, Justice League, an Justice League Unlimited are all excellent. Static Shock is fun, too. I started Batman not too long ago, but the Justice League show is one of my favorite shows of all-time, animated or not.

fujishig

Dang, no love for Batman Beyond?

I like Batman Beyond as long as we take the comic as non canon and we never mention Batgirl's pregnancy. Shoot, I just did.

Xander

Wow, this thread took an interesting turn with that comment lol! I agree the challenge of writing Superman was not a uniquely Snyder problem. It's been a problem for years. At least, on the movie screen. But the comics have done it well, the animated series did it pretty well. It seems like it's Hollywood that has a problem with it, and Snyder's just the latest perpetrator of that. I do NOT agree with his comments about "you need to grow up and let me do whatever I want with these heroes". They've already written a Superman that does whatever he wants and kills whomever he wants. He's called Homelander. Go write for that fucking show if you want heroes like that. I have no interest in seeing Superman portrayed that way.

fujishig

I do think part of it is that there are way different standards for live action than for cartoons (and even comics), with the stakes having been raised a lot with the vast improvement in special effects.

I remember it being brought up in the MoS thread that in the Animated Series, Superman punches Darkseid in that last episode through a bunch of buildings and none of us batted an eye, whereas having a way more realistic depiction of destruction in the fight between Superman and Zod horrified some of us. And I can see that. I'm sure someone liked that Justice League Dark ending to the direct to video animated continuity, but I can't imagine many would like a live action version of that (though who knows).

I still would have loved Dini and co. to have had a shot to make a cinematic universe, though, or have someone do it in that style. Maybe it would've been boring and a flop anyway, but I would've liked it. For instance, Superman and Lois seems like a great reinterpretation of the character for live action in terms of personality and feel (and I realize some don't like that too).

Xander

That's fair. I guess to me it seems more like the MCU stole all the good writers lol. DC can't seem to figure out how to write a good superhero movie (mostly). Especially for Superman.

fujishig

It seems to me like the MCU has more of a concrete guiding vision (mainly Feige). In comics terms this would be a very strong editorial office where everything that ever happens goes through them to ensure strict continuity, even if that restricts the freedom of the creators. And I think we've seen a lot of directors leave projects because of this.

WB seems more loose, allowing the creators to have a bit more freedom (though this is a double edged sword because it seems like there's still corporate meddling, just at the tail end, which is often worse). This is probably why a lot of people in this thread seem to see the MCU movies as more bland and by the numbers and the WB movies as more unique.

Because of this, I'm ok with WB going with a disconnected multiverse: it worked for them for a long time with their non interconnected movies (back when they were soundly trouncing Marvel's offerings), and if they don't have a guiding visionary anyway, it's probably for the best, at least until they get one. I said it before but some of their movies like WW1984 would've been a lot better had we not been scratching our heads going "how is she staying hidden exactly?"

On a side note, superhero comic book nerds (myself included) love continuity, but most of the best superhero comics are basically loosely connected to actual month to month continuity and can stand alone. Watchmen, DKR, All Star Superman, Kingdom Come, New Frontier, Sandman, etc.

GoldenJCJ

Agreed. WB and DC have had some success with individual movies but not so much with a connected universe yet. Although, I am not a fan of it, I think Joker made them realize they had other options than just following the Marvel mold. The Pattinson Batman movie looks good. I don’t need it to spend a ton of clunky exposition explaining where it fits in with the other movies. We saw how well WB does that with the 5 minute Justice League “trailer” they shoehorned into the middle of Batman vs. Superman.

milo bloom

I still think they could have had a cohesive whole if they had planned it out like Marvel did, but now that they've done what they've done, they may as well make the most of it. Use the alternate universes explanation if you must.

Runaway

Was the MCU really so well planned as people say? Storywise most of the movies are hardly connected to each other at least until Phase 3. The Avengers and Avengers: Age of Ultron didn't finish up bigger story arcs. The movies have the same look and feel, the whole style is similiar and the formula connects with audiences. I'm not saying there wasn't a plan at all, Feige was definitely not winging it, but it's not like they told an epic story that strechted over several movies.

SmackDaddy

I think people have kind of blurred the entire spate of movies together. Most of what connected the early films was a credits scene. Give the MCU credit though, they found a nice, safe formula that pretty much every film follows. I enjoyed pretty much every film in the series, but never feel the need to revisit any of them save for the 2 Guardians and Ragnarok. I also think the success of the MCU makes people forget that they aren't without their own issues including the favorite of DC bashers, too much CGI.

Hopefully DC settles on some sort of direction. If they are going multiverse, then just do it. Flash can set that up perfectly. Put Snyder on HBO Max (or some other streaming service) and just get on with it.

fujishig

They acted like comics: largely independent stories in a connected universe, with an underlying thread going through them (the Infinity Stones), a team up, and then a big crossover that involved all of them. They are about as interconnected as you can make a couple dozen movies over the span of a decade. Heck, at one point there was connective tissue with the tv shows (which they quickly disavowed for... reasons). That first season of Agents of SHIELD was something else.

Runaway

What I'm saying is, they are not telling one big story. It's not Harry Potter, Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, not even the movies of one Superhero have a long arc. There are small connections here and there, mostly for the fans, but up to phase 3 there just wasn't the big great plan which DC should have followed.
They just made movies and Feige as kind of a showrunner was overlooking that they all used the same formula, so even the "bad" movies like Iron Man 2 weren't received as bad movies. Not having a big overlaying plan is best shown with Agents of SHIELD. The producers of the show just didn't know that there won't be SHIELD for that long, but while being suprised by the events of Winter Soldier, the adjustment was easy, since the movies don't have a big arc which has to be followed, they just had to throw in some references from time to time.

Feige had certain goals and Endgame was his (first) endgame, but it's not like you had big problems to understand The Avengers and Avengers: Age of Ultron if you hadn't seen any of the other movies.

fujishig

Right, it wasn't one big story, I don't think anyone was saying it was. It would've been suicide to have each movie be dependent on the previous one like a traditional trilogy.

It was still well planned/mapped out though. And the showrunners of Agents of SHIELD either knew the plans in advance or they were able to drastically alter the entire show, because Winter Soldier totally changed the dynamics of the entire show.

You could argue the whole thing was better planned then some of the recent trilogies that were direct sequels of each other...

mndtrp

I enjoyed Snyder's Justice League a lot more than the 2017 movie. Mainly because I felt like I understood what was going on a hell of a lot more. Knowing nothing about Darkseid or the mother boxes or any of that prior to watching the 2017 movie, I really didn't get what was happening. This time around, it made a lot more sense. Cyborg was definitely more interesting. It was long, but didn't feel overly long to me. I hope a sequel of some sort can be made.

As far as DC's overarching plans, while a cohesive universe is appealing, I don't mind if they abandon that idea. Giving directors and writers time to flesh out their stories would be nice, maybe as standalone trilogies or something.

MysterioMan007

I've only watched Batman Beyond once, about ten years ago. I wasn't familiar with the characters beforehand, so it may have tainted my perception of the show. I'll hopefully enjoy it more this watchthrough.

Xander

I'm totally fine with a more disconnected DCU if they get better storytellers. That's the biggest problem I have. 80% of them are just not good movies. And I agree that some of the best stories are one-offs.