brayzie

The Force is Female, we're going to have a strong female protagonist, women-can-be-bad-asses-too, a role model for little girls, but the finale is going to involve the Prince bringing Snow White back to life, complete with a kiss. But for an added twist, the prince is a mass murderer, killed the heroine's father figure, had her abducted, restrained, and subjected to interrogation, mentally violated her in the process, while also physically attacking her on multiple occasions.

fujishig

Oh, ROTJ is definitely ridiculous and throws in as much fan service as they possibly could.

Hey, I heard you guys didn't like the last movie! Don't worry, we'll retcon the crap out of it with a nod and a wink.
You guys didn't like Rose, let's give her less to do.
You guys didn't like the whole "not special lineage" let's change that up
You want shipping? We have shipping. Also let's give Poe a love interest too.
More actors from Felicity? Why not Felicity herself, but the kicker: we won't show her face.
You like Lost? Here's an actor from Lost.
Evil Rey with double bladed lightsaber? I mean we can't really turn her evil but you got it!
Remember those Knights of Ren? They're back! Where were they? Who knows?
Remember Wicket? Here you go.
Force Lightning? we have force lightning.
You know how we have the good guys vastly outnumbered but they find some way to win with lesser technology? Here have some horses.
Lando flying in for the save with the cavalry? Yup.

Despite all my complaining I still enjoyed it. The whole trilogy was basically fanservice, subvert expectations to the disappointment of some, then more fan service.

mcnabb

No doubt as I agree with you there. That's what so weird about the PT and ST. I enjoy the ST movies and they are really well done, but there is nothing really there and they didn't need to exist. The PT movies are utterly frustrating to watch and lack alot of execution problems, but have a cool story and have a reason to exist.

Josh-da-man

Yeah, there's a really great story in the PT, but, my God, the execution was terrible. The films, especially AOTC and ROTS, are like watching a two hour cutscene from an old Playstation Game: a bunch of fake-looking CGI, cheap sets, acting so stiff the actors might as well be CGI creations in the uncanny valley, and bad writing.

If only George had executive produced these things instead of doing it all himself, you have to wonder what could have been.

And the ST has the opposite problem, where the films are competently made from an acting, direction, and art design standpoint, but there's just no goddamned story there. J.J. Abrams came on with TFA and the whole thing basically him remaking ANH, which is like the ultimate fanboy indulgence. Then Johnson comes along and just tears down the few interesting things that Abrams set up (Luke on a sabbatical, the lightsabre mystery, what is Snoke, Rey's identity) without adding anything to the greater story, and the Abrams comes back and tries to tie everything together, but it's still just ROTJ redux.

As shitty as the prequels were, I'd still rather watch them than the sequel trilogy, as they at least tried to tell a story and weren't just Another New Hope, The First Order Strikes Back, and The Jedi Returns Again.

mcnabb

fujishig

If you look at it from a standpoint of modernizing the series for a new generation, I think they had a decent idea. Kids don't care that much about the plot holes, inconsistencies, and repetition, just like we didn't when we were kids. And let's be honest, Star Wars nerds were going to watch this anyway. If you just made three straight fanservice films, I mean you'd still get the complaining because what is the internet if not to complain, but from a merchandising and refresh standpoint I think it would've been fine. It probably is still fine. I think it was a better refresh than, say, Star Trek which seemed to have just fizzled out.

From an artistic standpoint, well, there's much to be desired but as much as I love Star Wars it's not high art that drove me to it when I was a kid, it was the cool laser swords and space ships.

milo bloom

I mean, if TLJ hadn't been so badly out of step with not only TFA, but the entire rest of the saga, then several of those things up there wouldn't have been necessary. The thing that stood out to me the most about TROS was the JJ was basically telling two stories: what he thought Ep 8 should have been, then doing his follow up Ep 9. They just got smushed into one movie. Imagine how much cooler Ep 8 would have been with Kylo Ren on that quest for the GPS device and Rey getting more in-depth Jedi training. The Force-skyping scenes could have still been in there, but we could have lost the casino planet scene instead.

I'll take fanservice over somebody trying to be clever by subverting expectations any day.

Jay G.

And I'll take something that's clever and trying to be different and do something new over unoriginal fanservice. Different tastes and all.

milo bloom

I haven't seen it yet, but I understand that Rian Johnson's Knives Out is a very clever and fun murder mystery that's different from other murder mystery movies. And that's great. I kinda look forward to seeing it.
But something like Star Wars (at least the main Episode saga films) isn't the place to be clever and inventive. The Mandalorian was the place, and it worked out great. The middle movie of the sequel trilogy to one of the most beloved film sagas is not the place for that. At the most, you can get a Irvin Kershner who pushes the edges a bit with their personal style, but still remain within the boundaries of the story.

I guess what really bums me out about TLJ is that it feels like a wasted 2.5 hours when these movies didn't have a minute to spare plus it wastes Carrie Fisher's last performance by not giving her a more spectacular send-off.

And I can't completely hate it because it contains several well-done scenes and sequences. They just don't add up to something completely enjoyable.

Jay G.

Again, disagree. Honestly, I can't think of a creative work that isn't the place to be clever and inventive.

I think this statement underplays how much Kershner and Kasdan changed up the formula from what came before and reshaped what was considered "Star Wars." 40 years later, ESB is firmly "canon," but at the time it was taking huge risks and expanded the universe in interesting ways. A puppet as a major character, a much darker theme where the good guys fail several times and arguable "lose," introducing a love triangle, a dramatic twist that subverted expectations of the Luke v Vader confrontation, etc. Compare that to ROTJ, which retreated from such risk-taking and opted instead to tie up the story in the simplest, safest way possible.

I honestly don't understand this aversion to risk taking. People place too much reverence on Star Wars. It isn't a religion though, it's a film series. Movies have be constantly taking risks and try to be clever and inventive, even sequels, or even especially sequels, else you end up with bland retreads.

Pointing to the TV shows as a place for actual creativity and inventiveness, or even the spin-off movies, maybe makes sense from a risk-adverse financial sense, i.e. "give the people what they say they want," but I don't think it's a good plan for making great movies from a creative and critical angle. And I'll take an interesting and creative flop over financially successful drivel any day. But again, personal preferences.

mcnabb

I think these 2 posts pretty much sum up why Star Wars is handcuffed in it's storytelling (I'm not singling you guys out personally, as I am just making a broader point). I think Disney made Episode 7 simply to get back the fans who were turned off by the Prequels, so they played it safe and made it as unoriginal as possible. Rian Johnson took the other extreme and said, "They expecting are A,B,C, well then I'm going to give them N, R, and Z instead D,E,F." When JJ made Episode 9, he was probably thinking with pressure from Disney, "OK, how do I get a certain segment of fans back who were pissed off with TLJ?"

This is what happens when you have fans of the films making the movies as they are constantly thinking about the fans and just don't make an original story (There is nothing original about TFA, TLJ, or TROS). You shouldn't need to result to fanservice or subverting their expecations, but that's where were at with this franchise. I always look at Superman 1978 and Richard Donnor directed the movie, written by Mario Puzo. I don't know if Puzo was a comic book reader, but Donnor was not a comic book geek like Kevin Smith so he just made a movie that everyone could enjoy. He was thinking about the Superman Comic Book fans when he was making it and wondering whether they would love this and that, again it was made for anyone. I think Star Wars would benefit from someone who wasn't a fan of the franchise and just made the movie they wanted to make so they would have no idea what the fanboys wanted.

IBJoel

I think it's just that Star Wars has so much stuff going on, there's something for everyone to grab on to. Some people love the world building and don't even want the Skywalkers involved. Some people like the characters, so they want the cast interaction. Some people are really into the lore. Some people like the more introspective/spiritual stuff. Some people like how Star Wars takes a bunch of ideas from media and puts them in a blender.

I think the issue with both the Prequels and Sequels is that they've (like a lot of other media) become so narrative-driven that most of that other stuff can't shine through. Things can't breathe, lessons can't be taught, everything just has to be about how this character reacts to that revelation or shocking the audience with twists. But it's like, OK, why do I care about this character's reaction? What do I care about them at all? I think the actors do a great job at oozing charisma to cover over a lot of that stuff and dare I say that casting and working with actors is a strong suit of Abrams and his team.

I also think there's increasingly the issue of Star Wars becoming self-referential. Lucas grew up on pulp serials, westerns, car culture, and samurai films. The current directors of Star Wars grew up on Star Wars. So there's not so much of the "Oh wouldn't it be cool if I brought in bits of this film/show/book that was a big inspiration to me?" There's a bit of that on The Mandalorian, but I have fears that next season will be bringing in too much of Dave Filoni's work on the franchise.

GoldenJCJ

It does make you wonder if they had just a little more forethought into the PT what could have been. Imagine if they had take the story by George Lucas, or even the script and allowed it to be given a thorough polish with a better writer. Or if they chose to use different directors for each film like they did with the OT?

As it stands in hindsight, it was like a perfect storm of shit.

- Star Wars was still the “Holy Trilogy” and people just wanted Lucas to come back to the franchise to gives us more. Nobody was going to say “No” to him at that time.
- George Lucas was already transitioning from being a director to pushing his ILM side of things. I also think he oversold the quality of his team’s CG. It not only aged poorly but it looked cartoony even up one initial release. As a bonus to this, Lucas was rusty as fuck at directing and didn’t know how to direct actors, especially in front of green screen.
- It was the mid to late 90s when studios were already changing their mentality from practical effects to CGI. Not knowing (or caring) that CG still wasn’t where it needed to be to be effective in such a large quantity in movies.

Put it all together and you have the PT in its current form.

Chrisedge

I think this describes Rian?

I think directors should sign up for total standalone stories OR commit to leading a trilogy. Rian's TLJ isn't bad, it just doesn't fit TFA. And JJ trying to tie it together managed to possible make the worst SW out of the nine.

I 100% blame Disney for not having an decent outline of the 3 movies, prior to releasing TFA. Heck, even write 2 (TLJ) and 3 (TROS) after you release TFA but have a coherent plot/story/outcome.

milo bloom

I've tried to make the following point before and I think it bears repeating. Rian made a more-or-less "good" Star Wars movie. If it were on it's own, or part of his own trilogy, it might have been a masterpiece.
The problem comes down to following JJ's TFA that established a very specific tone and feel that Rian was not able to follow (either due to the rushed production schedule, or even if he was able to see dailies from TFA, which seems pretty likely, he just chose not to follow). But it's still hard to imagine DIsney not looking at early footage and seeing a problem coming.

As it stands, it will always stand out. To a lot of fans it will stick out like a sore thumb between two fun adventure movies, and to others, it's some kind avant-garde work of art in between two derivative popcorn flicks.

Chrisedge

I loved TFA, was pretty cool on TLJ, but accepted the choices. TROS? I haven't watched the PT in years, but this sits in with the worst of that. Massively disappointed with what they had (Original cast and great new actors for the most part) and how they spent it.

brayzie

I completely agree. That's what made Star Trek "ours" in that it was doing away with traditional approaches to heroic fantasy stories. The hero makes the wrong choices, loses to the villain, finds out he's not the orphaned stepchild revealed to be Arthur, son of King Uther Pendragon, but actually the potential anti-Christ. And he loses the girl to the pirate. I do believe, however, that the seeds of the love triangle was introduced in ANH.


I noticed that too and it shows on-screen.
The funny thing is that Lucas took his original inspirations and choices for the OT and ended up thinking it was some magic formula which ended up not working out out the second time around.
Hammer's Van Helsing in the OT=must have another Hammer alumni even if the villain is boring. And we have to make sure there's an obvious reference to him playing Dracula.
Akira Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress inspiration for ANH=lets do the same for Phantom Menace even though it's no surprise to anyone that the servent girl Padme is Queen Amidala.
Then there was doing his version of Ben Hurr but with space go-carts.


TFA was way too much like a ANH retread for me to re-watch it. It's so crazy that the director defended the film's lack of originality by saying something to the effect of, well, we had to get audiences back on board so they'll come back to watch the next two. THOSE one's will be more original.


The biggest problem, as most people have said, was not having the story for all three planned out more from the beginning. Yeah, they didn't do that for the OT but that was a different set of circumstances. The biggest one being that Lucas didn't think there was going to be a sequel. Disney knew they were doing a three-film story.

Mr. Flix

This will forever blow my mind. It's like Disney said, George didn't plan all three movies in advance, so we don't have to either!, and then hired a writer/director who decided to plant several mysteries/unanswered questions in a film that was not designed to be stand-alone, unlike A New Hope. You can't have it both ways, and it's amazing there wasn't a single person in the room smart enough to see they were setting themselves up for failure. It's like telling someone the set-up for a joke and then saying, "Now go ask someone else for the punchline. Hope it's funny."

mcnabb

I blame the audiences as they have forced most movie studios to play it safe these days. That's why all of the good quality material in the business have moved to the small screen, as it used to be the opposite. TV is where everyone is experimenting now as you are getting shows (since The Sopranos) that are cutting edge and constantly taking risks (There are so many more great dramas compared to 20-30 years ago). Where Hollywood has shifted more and more to the Blockbuster year round (it used to only exist from May to August), and the quality has suffered. I'll be honest, I hardly go to the movies anymore because I could care less about comic books, action, big budget flicks. I'd rather binge watch some cable/streaming show over the weekend instead of going/renting a movie.

What will be interesting to see is where the movie business goes after the pandemic? Nobody is going to movie theaters anytime soon (or atleast in crowds for awhile), so that is a game changer for big budget flicks. Can a 300 million dollar big budget comic book movie survive going straight to OnDemand? Will movie theaters shift back to targeting more smaller movies with smaller budgets because you won't be able to pack the theaters like before?

Mike86

Fan edit to the final confrontation between Palpatine and Rey. This could have been something simple to add, and would have been cool.

OldBoy

wow! that would have been amazing!!!

rennervision

I was more surprised that didn't happen actually. I predicted that's how the movie would end before I even saw it. Although nothing at this point in the film was going to save it for me as I was long past caring.

brayzie

That’s definitely a more satisfying end-battle. But it would also undermine the abilities of the first female Star Wars lead. She needs the help of four men to defeat Palpatine?

Mike86

Meh. We had Rey the almighty the entire trilogy. It wouldn’t have killed to show that she needed some help taking out the strongest of the Sith.

brayzie

They’re not going to promote “The Force is Female” and have the first Jedi Disney princess have to get bailed out by men in the finale. They’d get criticism from all corners of social media and we’d be getting articles from Vox on how backwards Disney was to do something like that.