brayzie

Maybe. I can see Alien possibly being criticized if it came out today, all the men get killed off, only the woman survives. Then again, Ripley wasn't portrayed as a "bad ass" woman in that story. That film was more science-fiction/horror, and it played out more as truckers-in-space. She's the straight-laced square who's by-the-book. She gets shit by everyone, even from her fellow female co-worker. But I guess it's possible.

Then again, if those movies came out today, they'd be faulted by those on the left as well.

Jenette Goldstein, a white woman, donned "brown face" to play a Latina soldier and affects a Spanish accent.

The Terminator takes place in Los Angeles yet has no Mexicans or Latinos appear in the film? And it's about a literal white male savior?

Sarah Connor has to be rescued once again by a male figure in Terminator 2. Really? And it's not the woman who finally defeats the evil terminator but instead it's machine-man. And of course it's the woman who has the breakdown after trying to murder a man in front of his family. Thank goodness the little boy and his uncle are the more rational ones.

Alita: Battle Angel didn't seem to be met with any "save the males" criticism. Wonder Woman was free of that as well, but Captain Marvel wasn't. Another issue is that it seems like much of the criticisms about women-led films are in regards to reboots or sequels to old franchises. The all-female reboot of Ghostbusters (2016) for example.
Terminator and Alien weren't reboots. They were something brand new. In fact, I doubt The Terminator or Alien would be criticized had they came out today, because everyone would be preoccupied with this future world that Cameron came up with, and the groundbreaking special effects of the terminators and Skynet's army. People would be focused on this disturbing bio-mechanical, sexual-like creature in Alien, designed by some crazy Swiss artist.

What's the Terminator: Dark Fate bringing to the table that's new? Same old shit. Oh but hey, a Latina is now the savior of mankind instead of the white guy. There's a female Terminator too! Except we already saw that in T3, and in T:TSC. Okay...but the bad liquid-metal terminator can split himself into two terminators!!!

mcnabb

I don't know what you are so confused about as my answer is pretty simple. I enjoy Alpha Male characters in action movies, plain and simple. Never said once that I don't want strong/female characters, but Han Solo type characters are always popular for a reason (especially to men). What's the reason people love Diehard? Because Bruce Willis plays a cool/alpha character that resonates with men. In a sense, we all want to be like him.

Now if the narrative is about women like Thelma and Louise, then I have no problem with a girl power movie. I love Thelma and Louise as I think the movie is a classic and own it on DVD. That would be stupid to have some alpha male in that movie because it really doesn't fit the story, and that type of movie has a much broader audience, so it is not playing to a certain demographic. Action movies play to a certain demographic whether you like it or not (mostly men), so obviously a strong male character is something that would appeal to me.

Don't know why the 'white genocide' comment has to be made, as there was not one thing I said about race. I love Sam Jackson in pretty much every role he is in cause he's the ultimate Alpha/Bad Mother Fucker. Pulp Fiction is one of his best roles. As I said, I liked Rey in the new Star Wars Trilogy and never complained once about her as she was much better than Hayden Christenson playing Anakin. But keep throwing out your assumptions about everyone cause you aint talking about me.

Draven

I like action movies with kickass lead characters. Their gender doesn’t matter in the slightest.

brayzie

mcnabb
What did you think of The Sarah Connor Chronicles?

DJariya

Again, I'm not criticizing that you didn't the movie. It didn't work for you. Fine.

But, who says this movie needed another male hero lead? And technically you're wrong, even though he was the bad guy, Gabriel Luna was technically the male lead. I know Arnold's role was small, but he have a big presence in the last 2 acts. MacKenzie Davis did tremendous work in this and got into top physical shape and did amazing work as the co-lead with Linda. And who says this movie was designed to appeal to a mostly male audience? Yes, it's a Terminator movie, but the series as a whole has appealed to both men and women. Hell, the 1st movie aside from the science fiction and Arnold being a badass, was actually a time travel love story.

brayzie

I doubt many people view it at as a love story. Usually fans of Terminator like it because it's action or sci-fi. I don't know any women who love The Notebook or Somewhere In Time and simultaneously gush about The Terminator. But the supposed love story did give us some T&A in the first film. Almost obligatory for R-rated genre films back then.

DJariya

Michael Biehn and Linda Hamilton in interviews I saw have said that one of the reasons the 1st movie appealed to them was that it was a love story about their characters.

But, we all have different interpretations of movies.

This old article from CinemaBlend also thinks the 1st movie has an unexpected love story

https://www.cinemablend.com/new/Term...ies-41645.html

I mean it's about a soldier from the future who falls in love with a woman who he only knows through a photograph. Fate brought them together and then tore them apart.

I know I'm sounding cheesy, but seriously that's the gist of the 1st movie.

brayzie

I'm not trying to down your interpretation of it. It's always great when a film has different layers to it. But I think "love-story" is stretching it as far as how the general public perceives it. I love the movie, but I felt the "love" aspect of it was very forced. "I came through time for you Sarah." I think it was done very awkwardly, even poorly, just to provide the time-paradox necessary for the story. Doesn't the story take place over two nights? Sarah's told that she's going to give birth to the savior of mankind. And yet she has unprotected sex with this soldier from the future? Neither one of them thinks this might jeopardize EVERYTHING? They even joke around the next day like a regular couple? Usually a one night stand involves some kind of regret. Here...nothing. And I kind of hate the idea that the male lead and female lead have to get together. In fact, their love never felt believable in any of the sequels or spin-offs. And the dude that played Kyle in T:SC was way too young for the more mature looking Lena Headey.

The Fly is also described by Geena Davis as a love-story. That's slightly more plausible because it takes place over a long period of time but even then, I didn't see both characters being in love. Davis's character was using Brundle to get a story. Brundle was an awkward dude who probably had limited experience with women, and was desperate to use his top-secret technological discovery to get laid. Veronica wants to help Brundle after it turns out something is seriously wrong with him, but at this point it's more about human empathy than it is love.

A better and more believable love-story is that in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Straight up martial arts flick, but I can see the love-story in that one, and is much better demonstrated.

mcnabb

No offense, but you're living in fantasy land if you think a Terminator movie is going to appeal to a majority of women in this world. Not of one of my friends wife's said to me, "Did you hear they are making a new Terminator movie!!!!!" last year. Now I love that the first Terminator movie has a love story an isn't your standard action film, but I vividly remember back in 1984, it was the GUYS in my class who raved about it. Just like Rom-Com's appeal to a more female audience, and that's the way it is. Now of course there are exception when they are a great movie as When Harry Met Sally appeals to both men and women, Thelma & Louise is a girl power movie but did like gang busters at the Box Office.

So if a movie is really great, and the characters are well done, it can get away with anything because great is great. But 99% of the films in that come out aren't considered 'classics' so they have to rely on something that gets people interest: Nostalgia, Big Action Scenes, Great One Liners, Cool Characters, etc. This sort of goes to my point that Hollywood is overthinking it sometimes as they are going for the masses instead of catering to their base of fans, and the movie doesn't appeal to either group. Terminator Dark Fate flopped first because it's a bad film, and flopped second because they tried to cater to the masses.

I thought it was pretty good and had potential after Season 1. I don't remember if they had a Season 2 or if it got cancelled? I do remember watching Season 1 and liking it, not loving it.

OldBoy

i wouldn't say that. we have the female superhero movies that are sole now. Wonder Woman, Black Widow, Captain Marvel, others... I think the days of sole male white action heroes has been long gone. sure we have John Wick (debatable) and Ethan Hunt still, Bond, of course and many Marvel characters, but even they have implemented fine, strong female characters. no more Arnold, Sly or Willis white male action heroes no more imo. Sly tried to with Expendables, but even 3 and none really panned out...

EddieMoney

Finally saw this and it was much better than I expected. The only Terminator movie I absolutely hated was Genysis; while Salvation had some good sequences, it was mostly weak. I moderately enjoy T3 as well. That being said, I found this to be the third best of the series, behind of course 1) T1 and 2) T2.

eXcentris

I also saw this recently. Not only was it terrible but Linda Hamilton was excruciatingly bad.

wearetheborg

Here is my view on what makes this a lame girl power movie (as opposed to a movie with great female leads).
Mackenzie was fantastic, no complaints.
Midget girl as the future savior of humankind was ridiculous. Her stature/demeanour was completely unsuited for the role. The girl power lens: there is a scene set in the future where a gang is about to beat up young Mackenzie's character, and midget girl takes on the gang barehanded, and subdues them with barely any effort, followed by a lame short speech after which the gang decides to become her disciples. A scene like THAT is what makes it a lame girl power movie and takes the audience out of movie magic.

They first kill of John Connor on whom the Terminator universe rests, and replace him with midget girl. Bah.

This seemed also a girl power movie from the eyes of male directors. Linda has talked about how she was told to wear butt (and maybe boob?) padding because she didn't have a butt due to her training. WTF.

brayzie

The first two films were great when they came out, but the concept is dated. The savior of humanity is a white man. The female main character's purpose is to survive just so she can give birth to said white male. Sarah Connor's importance is based on her ability to bear a male child.
Even in the second one where she gets to be a bad ass, she still plays second fiddle to Arnold, who's the star and eventual hero of the franchise.

So Terminator Dark Fate tries to modernize this stale, outdated property by doing away with the white savior trope and women-are-good-for-birthing-male-heroes idea.
So Dani's not the mother of the savior of humanity, she is the savior of humanity. But to do that, the writers have to diminish John Connor, Sarah Connor, and everything that happened previously. And yet it's the same damn story from 1984.

A woman as the savior of humanity? Cool! But might as well make a new story and new movie with that idea. Instead it's used as a superficial makeover for an old 80s action franchise.

wearetheborg

Having a non-white person as the savior of humanity is perfectly fine, so is it being a woman. BUT the person being a woman cannot override other attributes. For example, if it had been a midget white boy instead of midget girl, I would have the same problem. You cannot have Seth Green playing Thor. You cannot have midget girl being Wonder Woman instead of Gadot.

And the other thing you mentioned - to make Dani the central character, they have to do away with the previous savior. But it's still a Terminator movie. So they're banking on the franchise, but shitting on it's history at the same time. This does not work.

brayzie

I'm re-watching that scene now. Yeah, it was kind of laughable.
Linda Hamilton was only 5'6'' but she didn't necessarily look short in every scene. Natalia Reyes, who's 5' 1'', looks really small in that future scene, like a teenage kid. Nick Stahl was also bad in his future scene from T3.
I guess if they put an athletic, taller woman in the role, audiences might guess the twist. Putting someone petite like Reyes in the role fools them into thinking she's just going to be mom to the next JC.

Yup.

Mr. Flix

This, exactly. The reason Ripley and Sarah Conner resonated is because they were well written characters in good movies. Not just because they were women.

There seem to be some in Hollywood that think simply putting a female in a hero role is all the effort needed. Nope. Ghostbusters proved that.

Make a GOOD movie with a female hero -- like Wonder Woman -- and both men and women will enjoy it. But if the script comes across like it's making inorganic efforts to check off PC boxes, fans will reject it (Dark Fate).

wearetheborg

Screenshot I took from the movie

wearetheborg

In case I gave the impression I don't approve of tiny girls in lead roles, I have loved Veronica Mars (which lasted unfortunately only for three seasons). The character was written well, and Bell was convincing as a leader. At the same time, the show did not ignore Bell's size. There is a scene in a gang bar where Liam just hug-grabs her and she can't do jack because of her size.

Toddarino

Bought this a while back and finally popped it in. Thought it was decent but I’d probably rank it in fourth place.
1. Terminator
2. T2
3. Salvation
4. Dark Fate
5. T3
6. Genesys

Four and five could easily flip flop.
I don’t necessarily think this shit all over John Connor. Genesys already did that. My main problem was it more or less made T2 useless in a way.

Josh-da-man

I've said this for a while, too. Salvation wasn't a particularly good movie, but at least it tried to do something new with the franchise instead of just regurgitating the old time travel plot.

I'd much rather see the post-Judgement Day future, the war against the machines from a ground-level POV, the story of John Conner and how he became humanity's savior, and the ultimate defeat of Skynet, than another "send a terminator back in time to kill someone" plot of the umpteenth time. There's plenty of room there for several movies that tell an actual story rather than just shitting out more of the same.

Maybe audiences would reject those concepts, but they seem bored with the old formula.

Runaway

I totally agree. Salvation did a lot wrong, but it tried to further the story and had some nice ideas. McG wasn't the right director and the movie didn't seem to be planned through, but a copy of Terminator 1 and 2 will never be a good idea. I do understand the decision to bring back Arnie, since he is 'The Terminator' but an actor should never be more important than the story.

MLBFan24

I thought McG was a great director for Salvation. The Bluray behind-the-scenes documentaries really show his creative commitment to the Cameron theme/movies.

Some people complain that Salvation didn’t get it right because the weapons weren’t the same as the future war weapons in T1 and T2. Let’s not forget, Salvation was suppose to be the first of a new trilogy (I know they say that all the time now). So we would have seen the progression into the future war plasma weapons in the follow-up movies.

mcnabb

I agree with many here that Salvation atleast tried to take the franchise in a different direction, as I still can't believe they never took advantage of that time period with more movies. The problem with directors like McG is they are terrible with character development as it's non existent in Salvation. I see this same problem with most modern blockbusters (I blame the rise of CGI) as these directors have so many tools for big action scenes they forget it's the small scenes that are the most memorable.

IBJoel

I think the best post-T2 movie was the opening 5min of Genesys