When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
#1
DVD Talk Special Edition
Thread Starter
When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
When I watch movies from the 1950s and 60s credits are generally displayed before the beginning of the movie. I also noticed that in these movies only the major players are named in the credits. Nobody cared who the production accountant was. At some point this switched, eventually auguring in the modern practice of not only displaying credits after the movie, but also giving everybody and their pets a credit. About what timeframe, and why, did this change take place?
#2
DVD Talk Hero
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
I know exactly when network television figured out that it had happened. They were showing the movie Meteor about 1981 and the announcer said, "Stay tuned for the conclusion of Meteor!" After the commercial break, they broadcast ten minutes of credits.
They probably lost 90% of their audience. I watched the whole thing, because I couldn't believe they were actually going through with it.
They probably lost 90% of their audience. I watched the whole thing, because I couldn't believe they were actually going through with it.
#3
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
THE EXORCIST (1973) opened with only the title and had its credits at the end. When Friedkin wanted Bernard Herrmann to score it and screened it for him, Herrmann famously turned him down afterwards, declaring, "Only one great movie had its credits at the end--CITIZEN KANE!" Which, of course, Herrmann had scored.
The first film I remember where the credits at the end was an issue was THE TOWERING INFERNO (1974). It was the last show of the day and the projectionist closed the curtain on the end credits. Because of the wrinkles in the curtain, I could no longer read the projected credits, but I insisted on staying so I could listen to John Williams' closing music. I was the last one in the theater and the projectionist had to unlock the front door to let me out.
Of course, the end credits for that film only gave key production personnel and a complete cast. I believe it was some time in the 1990s when they started listing EVERYBODY in the end credits. I couldn't tell you exactly when. It's certainly something I'd like to know also.
The first film I remember where the credits at the end was an issue was THE TOWERING INFERNO (1974). It was the last show of the day and the projectionist closed the curtain on the end credits. Because of the wrinkles in the curtain, I could no longer read the projected credits, but I insisted on staying so I could listen to John Williams' closing music. I was the last one in the theater and the projectionist had to unlock the front door to let me out.
Of course, the end credits for that film only gave key production personnel and a complete cast. I believe it was some time in the 1990s when they started listing EVERYBODY in the end credits. I couldn't tell you exactly when. It's certainly something I'd like to know also.
#4
DVD Talk Godfather
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
There are definitely outliers here and there but accross the board? I'd have to imagine it correlates to the modern blockbuster (post Jaws/Star Wars) where production personnel grew exponentially.
Interesting question though. Count me as curious as well.
Interesting question though. Count me as curious as well.
#5
DVD Talk Hero
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
I wonder if some new union rules were created that states who exactly must be given a credit on movies? That would account for everyone and their cousin being listed.
#6
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
Yeah, in many movies in the past, even people with a few speaking lines would go uncredited. Now, the caterers and drivers are credited. If all of that was done up front, it would take forever.
You also need some kind of shit to overlay the “main” credits over (the ones that take up most of the screen), either with expository establishing shots, or with something to introduce your main characters or concepts - at least for the first couple minutes, then more credits can show up as music fades (the ones that show up on the bottom of the screen).
I think that can also relate to when people didn’t travel much, movies showed like 200 aerial shots of an exotic location, or spell out on a map exactly how a character traveled from Point A to Point B, like a mini travelogue. Now, you just show the name of the new country and move on.
If The Avengers were made in the 80s, you would see a map of the plane going from Stuttgart from NY, complete with ADR of Thor asking if he can pilot the plane or some shit.
If the story dictates that you just dive into the plot, that would also slow everything down and become unnecessary.
You also need some kind of shit to overlay the “main” credits over (the ones that take up most of the screen), either with expository establishing shots, or with something to introduce your main characters or concepts - at least for the first couple minutes, then more credits can show up as music fades (the ones that show up on the bottom of the screen).
I think that can also relate to when people didn’t travel much, movies showed like 200 aerial shots of an exotic location, or spell out on a map exactly how a character traveled from Point A to Point B, like a mini travelogue. Now, you just show the name of the new country and move on.
If The Avengers were made in the 80s, you would see a map of the plane going from Stuttgart from NY, complete with ADR of Thor asking if he can pilot the plane or some shit.
If the story dictates that you just dive into the plot, that would also slow everything down and become unnecessary.
Last edited by bluetoast; 06-09-18 at 07:56 AM.
#7
Moderator
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
If I reach way back into my film school days, there was sone sort of rule or law or union bargaining that happened in the 70s or so to make it not only required to have everyone in the credits but to also have theaters run the whole thing instead of turn off the credits and try to sneak in an extra showing or call it a night early. However, I only have a vague notion of this, can't remember details, but hopefully what I am remembering is accurate.
#8
DVD Talk Hero
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
eXistenZ has like 10 minutes of credits before and after the movie. So I don't know either
My copies of Persona (1966) and 2001 (1968) have after movie credit sequences, though the one for Persona may have been added by Criterion. The 2001 one is definitely part of the movie.
From Wikipedia:
I think it all comes down to contracts.
My copies of Persona (1966) and 2001 (1968) have after movie credit sequences, though the one for Persona may have been added by Criterion. The 2001 one is definitely part of the movie.
From Wikipedia:
The use of closing credits in film to list complete production crew and cast was not firmly established in American film until the 1970s. Before this decade, most movies were released with no closing credits at all. Films generally had opening credits only, which consisted of just major cast and crew, although sometimes the names of the cast and the characters they played would be shown at the end, as in The Wizard of Oz, Mary Poppins, Oliver! and the 1964 Fail Safe. Two of the first major films to contain extensive closing credits – but almost no opening credits – were the blockbusters Around the World in 80 Days (1956) and West Side Story (1961). West Side Story showed only the title at the beginning of the film, and Around the World in 80 Days had no opening credits at all.
Around the World in 80 Days had one of the longest and most elaborate closing credit sequences of any film. The credits took around seven minutes to finish. It provided an animated recap of the movie's three-hour storyline, identifying the actors in the order in which they appeared. Superman (1978) also had a very long closing credits sequence, which took nearly eight minutes to end, and was the longest end credits sequence ever recorded at the time of the film's release.[1]
Some live action/animated films' end credits later ran from seven to eight minutes in length, such as Space Jam (1996), Scooby-Doo (2002) and The Lego Movie (2014). The 2016 movie Assassin's Creed end credits extends for almost 15 minutes.
The British television series Spooks does not feature any credits, as a result of a decision made by the producers to add to the anonymity of the show's content (about the British Security Service). Instead, the credits appear as a special feature on the series DVDs, and also on the official website. Similarly, the British series Jam (2000) features a single title at the end of each episode reading only "jamcredits.com".
Around the World in 80 Days had one of the longest and most elaborate closing credit sequences of any film. The credits took around seven minutes to finish. It provided an animated recap of the movie's three-hour storyline, identifying the actors in the order in which they appeared. Superman (1978) also had a very long closing credits sequence, which took nearly eight minutes to end, and was the longest end credits sequence ever recorded at the time of the film's release.[1]
Some live action/animated films' end credits later ran from seven to eight minutes in length, such as Space Jam (1996), Scooby-Doo (2002) and The Lego Movie (2014). The 2016 movie Assassin's Creed end credits extends for almost 15 minutes.
The British television series Spooks does not feature any credits, as a result of a decision made by the producers to add to the anonymity of the show's content (about the British Security Service). Instead, the credits appear as a special feature on the series DVDs, and also on the official website. Similarly, the British series Jam (2000) features a single title at the end of each episode reading only "jamcredits.com".
Last edited by RichC2; 06-09-18 at 08:58 AM.
#9
DVD Talk Legend
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
I had always heard but had no facts to back it up that it was a union rule demand for the production crew. If you showed up and swept the floor around the snack table you got credit if you were in the union.
#10
DVD Talk Special Edition
Thread Starter
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
I just got done watching Rear Window, and besides the usual credits at the start of the movie I noticed that no character is listed next to the actor’s name. I suppose it would have been awkward to name characters before you see them. “Modern” credits, of course, always say what character the actor played.
#11
DVD Talk Hero
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
If I reach way back into my film school days, there was sone sort of rule or law or union bargaining that happened in the 70s or so to make it not only required to have everyone in the credits but to also have theaters run the whole thing instead of turn off the credits and try to sneak in an extra showing or call it a night early. However, I only have a vague notion of this, can't remember details, but hopefully what I am remembering is accurate.
#12
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
Though not everybody is listed. There’s been articles about lots of special effects people getting the shaft. Say the movie uses multiple effects houses, sometimes only the bosses or other higher up people get credited.
#13
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Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
At least the “odd job” people mentioned so far have been people who actually worked on the movie. I’ve noticed a trend of including the C-suite (CEO, CFO, etc.) and even administrative assistants from companies who worked on the film.
Best end credits: the original Planet of the Apes.
Best end credits: the original Planet of the Apes.
#14
DVD Talk Legend
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
There were a handful of them in the 40's and 50's. It was usually an artistic decision.
The Longest Day (1962) may have been the first movie that had fairly comprehensive credits with everything running at the end and nothing at the beginning.
The Longest Day (1962) may have been the first movie that had fairly comprehensive credits with everything running at the end and nothing at the beginning.
#15
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Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
There were early outliers that did it first, but the really long “list everyone” style of credits kicked in around the mid ‘70s. Compare Jaws and Close Encounters. Jaws is less than a minute and Close Encounters is exhaustive. The DVD Savant critic who works for this site says Close Encounters was the first to do it in our modern sense.
Regarding Existenz: David Cronenberg is well known for long opening credit sequences. He says he likes them because they lull you out of your current reality and prepare you for the movie.
Regarding Existenz: David Cronenberg is well known for long opening credit sequences. He says he likes them because they lull you out of your current reality and prepare you for the movie.
#16
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Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
I don't doubt that at all, it sounds exactly like the kind of thing Cronenberg would want to do.
#17
DVD Talk Legend
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
SW/TESB actually had Lucas getting fined 250,000 and later quitting the director's guild over the opening crawl/lack of credits.
#18
DVD Talk Hero
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
Makes sense, Mulholland Drive has a similarly long intro that works as a lull into dreamworld.
#19
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
I just got done watching Rear Window, and besides the usual credits at the start of the movie I noticed that no character is listed next to the actor’s name. I suppose it would have been awkward to name characters before you see them. “Modern” credits, of course, always say what character the actor played.
This is from ANIMAL CRACKERS (1930)
#20
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Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
And sometimes at the beginning and end.
“A Great Cast is Worth Repeating” James Whale would remind you.
“A Great Cast is Worth Repeating” James Whale would remind you.
#21
DVD Talk Legend
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
Under the studio system, everyone in the crew had steady year-round jobs at the studios, and were just assigned films to do as they came up. Even if, as a crew member, you wanted to switch studios, you could just put the years you worked at the previous studio as a reference. Nobody "needed" a credit to prove previous work.
When the studio system died, suddenly everyone was getting employed on a "per project" basis, and had to apply for each film to work on it. What's more, these movies were typically managed by production "companies" that were put together for just that particular film, and then essentially dissolved afterward. So to get a job, you now had to list the particular films you worked on, but there was no company to call for a reference and confirm your work.
So the various unions started insisting on crew being credited for their work, so there'd be a permanent, public record of their work on the film. Once enough people started getting listed that it became awkward to list everyone at the beginning, films started shifting the credits to the end. And once it was at the end of the film and the audience didn't "have to" sit through it, the number of people being credited exploded.
Of course, some people still wanted to be credited at the beginning, such as the producers, director, major stars, etc. So we now have it where we have "brief" opening credits, with a few notable exceptions, and "full" end credits.
Nowadays it seems half the credits for major blockbusters are the VFX credits, with the various companies and various employees of each. I stopped counting the number of VFX houses that worked on Avengers: Infinity War after reaching a dozen.
#22
DVD Talk Hero
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
I appreciate that answer Jay G.
#23
DVD Talk Reviewer & TOAT Winner
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
Seems like a current trend is to have NO opening credits at all, not even showing the movie's name onscreen until the end if even at all. Superman had pretty long opening credits as well as closing.
I remember reading something in the paper shortly after Ghostbusters first aired on network TV- as they were contractually obligated to run the full ending credits (even though they routinely cut movies for time, even if the content wasn't 'offensive') some executive type said he tuned in near the end waiting for the news and was flabbergasted at the amount of end credits being shown and what a waste of time it was (which of course could have better been used for more commercials). Eventually they started speeding up the end credits on TV versions to get them out of the way faster; no big loss as the movie was already edited to death anyways and I've heard it's only gotten worse as more commercial time has been added.
I remember reading something in the paper shortly after Ghostbusters first aired on network TV- as they were contractually obligated to run the full ending credits (even though they routinely cut movies for time, even if the content wasn't 'offensive') some executive type said he tuned in near the end waiting for the news and was flabbergasted at the amount of end credits being shown and what a waste of time it was (which of course could have better been used for more commercials). Eventually they started speeding up the end credits on TV versions to get them out of the way faster; no big loss as the movie was already edited to death anyways and I've heard it's only gotten worse as more commercial time has been added.
#24
DVD Talk Hero
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
Seems like a current trend is to have NO opening credits at all, not even showing the movie's name onscreen until the end if even at all. Superman had pretty long opening credits as well as closing.
I remember reading something in the paper shortly after Ghostbusters first aired on network TV- as they were contractually obligated to run the full ending credits (even though they routinely cut movies for time, even if the content wasn't 'offensive') some executive type said he tuned in near the end waiting for the news and was flabbergasted at the amount of end credits being shown and what a waste of time it was (which of course could have better been used for more commercials). Eventually they started speeding up the end credits on TV versions to get them out of the way faster; no big loss as the movie was already edited to death anyways and I've heard it's only gotten worse as more commercial time has been added.
I remember reading something in the paper shortly after Ghostbusters first aired on network TV- as they were contractually obligated to run the full ending credits (even though they routinely cut movies for time, even if the content wasn't 'offensive') some executive type said he tuned in near the end waiting for the news and was flabbergasted at the amount of end credits being shown and what a waste of time it was (which of course could have better been used for more commercials). Eventually they started speeding up the end credits on TV versions to get them out of the way faster; no big loss as the movie was already edited to death anyways and I've heard it's only gotten worse as more commercial time has been added.
Some of the rerun networks do the same thing with old television shows: they shrink the closing credits and put the beginning of the next show on the same screen. It keeps the viewers who would change channels if there were a pause between programs.
Last edited by Nick Danger; 06-10-18 at 06:34 AM.
#25
Re: When did credits switch to the end of the movie?
You don't watch movies on TV, so you haven't seen how they do it these days. They commonly run full credits sped up to about thirty seconds, and squashed to a quarter of the screen. It's so small that even if you recorded it and paused, it would still be unreadable. Sometimes they create a new credit sequence for TV, nonscrolling credits that flash by at 24 pages per second. Some people must include "credits are shown during TV broadcasts" in their contracts, because occasionally there is a full screen / slow credit sequence for the director and major actors, and then the window shrinks and the text becomes fast.
Some of the rerun networks do the same thing with old television shows: they shrink the closing credits and put the beginning of the next show on the same screen. It keeps the viewers who would change channels if there were a pause between programs.
Some of the rerun networks do the same thing with old television shows: they shrink the closing credits and put the beginning of the next show on the same screen. It keeps the viewers who would change channels if there were a pause between programs.