TGM

They really need to either do a KOTOR or something hundreds of years in the future to distance themselves enough from established canon and give them some real flexibility.

Mondo Kane

If done well, this would get me back into Star Wars.

tanman

I think a majority of Star Wars fans have embraced the new characters especially the ones you mentioned.

To me it boils down to just a few things. Make a compelling story that's faithful to Star Wars and faithful to the characters. But of course that's easier said then done and "faithful" is different to each individual Star Wars fan.

Josh-da-man

I think a lot of fans want the same old shit repackaged in a way that makes it seem new, but isn’t. They have convinced themselves that they actually want something new, but deep down they just want to see the same story over and over again.

Hence the popularity of TLJ. It reinforces the Empire vs Rebellion conflict, a Jedi order that needs to recreated, yadda yadda yadda.

It’s like comic books, where Batman has been fighting the Joker over and over again for almost one hundred years with no resolution in sight.

brayzie

As you get older, it's comforting to see something that's some things don't change.
Like how newspapers kept shrinking the size of comic strips, but refused to get rid of the ancient, unfunny ones because older subscribers would complain.

Yeah, I'm surprised at just how cookie-cutter the Disney films are to the OT at times.
I thought it was cheap how we got Tattooine-lite, Darth Vader-lite, Emperor-lite, Death Star 3.0, etc in The Force Awakens...
but okay.
The prequels did a lot of damage to the Star Wars brand. They needed to make the first new one, in the a new series, feel closer to the cherished originals. Once they did that, then they could create their own path from there. I think J.J. Abrams said as much in an interview.
But The Last Jedi repeated a lot of the same.
ESB had an ice planet with attacking AT-ATs, TLJ had a salt planet with attacking AT-ATs.
Darth Vader-lite betrays and kills Emperor-lite in the throne room, just like in ROTJ.
We even get an updated version of the Crimson Guards from that film too, but this time we get to see them fight.

Join me, and we can rule the galaxy together...
.........-from The Empire Strikes Back (1980) and The Last Jedi (2017)

"It's like poetry...it rhymes"
-George Lucas

To be fair, they switched it up a bit at times.
The cranky old teacher, and the student who defies him.
But this time the student was right and the teacher was wrong!
And Emperor-lite gets killed a film early. Another switcheroo.


Once Batman became this big money maker, owned by a corporation, the story's never gonna end, it's never going to make any long lasting changes.
Batman is about selling merchandise and keeping the property as mainstream as possible.
Once Star Wars became this great big success, it seems like Lucas wanted to take less creative chances.
Once Disney paid $4 Billion for the property, creative, artistic risks are too risky to the shareholders.

brayzie

That's why I didn't like parts of Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade
Young Indy, in just one adventure, gets his chin scar, gets his weapon of choice the whip, develops his famous fear of snakes, and gets his signature hat.
Not to mention they had to bring in the Nazi's again from the first film.
And have it in the desert.

It's almost as if...not all Star Wars fans think alike.

Me personally, I just wanted a good Anakin Skywalker trilogy and didn't get it. Past that, I didn't need anything else.
Something I didn't ask for and wasn't expecting turned out to be awesome, and that was The Force Unleashed.
It had an interesting story, took place in between the two trilogies, and managed to have a likable hero.

I had no interest in a Harrison Ford-less Han Solo movie. Han Solo was cool because of Harrison Ford.
I didn't care about Rogue One or how Leia got the rebel plans. Supposedly it was a good Star Wars movie, but I didn't see it.
A Bobba Fett movie, Lando movie, Chewie Movie, Obi-Wan movie sound like their bleeding the franchise dry, and may oversaturate the market with SW films.
But then again, I thought the same thing about the Marvel and DC films 5 years ago and they're still going strong.

coli

This is a good post as this is EXAXCTLY what Disney said they would do back in 2012 when they started announcing Episode 7,8,9 and this is EXACTLY what many (not all) fans wanted. Just think back to the early days of 2013-14 when they started to promote Episode 7. You heard phrases like 'practical effects' or 'we want to get back to the spirit of the OT movies.' Then I remember reading 'off the record rumors' that there would be no political stuff like the PT (Fans didn't like the Senate Scenes or Taxation Plot Points), or they were scared that Lucas notes wanted younger/teenager protagonists for possibly Rey/Finn. Heck Lucas even said that Disney divorced him because he didn't want make a film for the fans. That is exactly what TFA is, a film for the fans that tugs at their OT heartstrings.

This was all leading to a repackaged/rebooted/retreaded OT (whatever name you feel is right for it as it is all a certain point of view). The characters Rey, Finn and Poe were going to be as likeable as Luke, Leia and Han. The look of them was going to have the same look as the OT, and not the PT. The 3 act structure was going to much the same with the first movie introducing the characters, the 2nd one is where everything goes to hell, and the 3rd movie will give them closure. Go back and read the comments from fans back in 2012, 2013, 2014, and this is exactly what most fans wanted.

I'm guilty of it so I can't be a hypocrite. But what changed everything for me was the standalones and how I didn't give a crap about them when they were announced and how they are the only movies I ended up really liking and want more. Now many will argue that the Standalones are just a greatest hits point for point from a certain OT subject, and they are correct from a certain point of view. What I like about the Standalones is they are able to have the freedom to make the overall plot something new, yet still be faithful to the OT. Rogue One for me is a War movie, and Solo is a Heist movie. The Saga movies keep retreading the same plot points of Resitance vs Empire, Going to the Darkside, Redemption from the Darkside, it just gets old after 9 movies just like any TV show that went 9 seasons.

I'd be interested in a Kenobi movie, a Boba Fett movie, simply because they could take the plot wherever they want, yet it still feels like SW to me. I know the standalones are not for everyone as the Saga movies appeal to the masses. But I think if they thought of those movies more like independent SW movies and didn't have this bloated budget, they could sustain the franchise for fans like me for a long time. I could care less about Episode 9 or even some different era because SW to me is the OT. I always say if someone wants something original, then why are you still hanging around a 40 year old franchise???


As I stated in my post above, I had NO interest in Rogue One or Solo, and ended up really liking them. My best friend pretty much dragged me to Solo and said he would buy my ticket for me cause he wanted to go and see it. I wish you would atleast give Rogue One and Solo a try (Rogue One is streaming on Netflix) as so many people (including me) who didn't care about Solo, ended up being pleasantly surprised. They're not 4 star movies as I don't even entertain the thought of a movie coming close to ANH or ESB these days, but they are good/fun SW movies, IMO.

story

A lot of good stuff here in the last few posts.

My only real wish for Solo? That it was funnier. Han is one of the funniest characters in the galaxy and the movie's laugh lines or funny moments were really sparse. By the time Lando flies away, I laughed really, really hard, not just because it was funny but I think I was desperate to laugh.

Mr. Flix

Forgive me if this is a lame question, but... is part of the overall problem that no one can agree on what constitutes a "Star Wars" movie? Like, what elements have to be present for it to take place in the SW universe vs. just being a generic sci-fi movie?

"Solo" (for better or worse) proved that you don't need to have Jedi, lightsabers, or Skywalkers -- elements that have appeared in all other SW movies. I guess Episodes I, II, and VIII proved SW can exist without Death Stars. But Solo, like every SW movie so far, did rely on established OT characters. Can we have a SW movie that doesn't mention the Empire, or showcase recognizable tech, or feature nothing but newly-designed alien species?

I'm curious what the balance is. Could there be a SW movie that has all original characters and zero Jedi and still be accepted as SW? Or would people say, "This is just a sci-fi movie with 'Star Wars' slapped on the title"? What elements have to be present to make it SW, but still give the writers freedom enough to break the cookie-cutter mold and venture into new territory?

Draven

I just think it has to exist in that world. So Jedi and lightsabers don’t have to be in it but they have to be part of the world. I don’t want a bad guy who can shoot lasers out of his eyes and fly like Superman because that doesn’t fit that world. And the ships and tech and droids should have some similarities to what exists. I don’t think they should make a droid that’s like Data from Star Trek, for example.

The EU did a great job expanding out stories that were non-Jedi and non-Skywalker. One of my favorite short stories was about an AT-AT pilot going through training. It just needs a few consistent elements to fit into that universe.

coli

I know they would never release the Lord & Miller cut (Much like Superman 2 Donnor Cut). From what I read, that was a much funnier/goofy (depending whether you think it is funny or goofy) take on Solo. That is why they were fired, so I assume Kathleen Kennedy wanted a more serious take on the movie (for better or worse).

This is sort of why I liked Solo cause it explored the underworld of SW as it was gritty and everyone had their own agenda. But I totally get that Lightsabers and the Force are what appeals to the masses, as the Saga movies are just 'bigger in scope and themes' then a movie like Solo.

Timber

I think there is a fear to go the KOTOR route because there is no Skywalkers, no Solo, no Falcon and would be just another SciFi movie. I would welcome it but I'll watch anything with the Star Wars name on it.

RichC2

They'd have to make an actual good movie with new, memorable characters without their crutches? Yeah that's not gonna happen.

coli

I agree. It would be no different then having a Terminator movie without John Connor/Sarah Connor being part of the overall plot, or Neo in the Matrix, or Marty and Doc in Back to the Future, or Harry Potter in Harry Potter. Why would anyone want to see a SW movie that doesn't tie into the OT Saga story? Why wouldn't you just look for a new Sci-Fi franchise that actually is original and fresh?

story

Is that the one where he leans it low because he sees the flaw with tow cables and his commanding officer says that's ridiculous? Yeah, love that story!

Mabuse

Here’s what a Star Wars movie is:

When the characters are face to face it needs to be like a Kurosawa Samurai film and/or a John Ford Western. Real locations. Organic tangible places. Remote, ungoverned, desolate places. Great distances separating characters from their destinations.

And when they are in battle it needs to resemble World War I and II. Dogfights, trenches, mechanized vehicles of odd proportions, sieges, artilary cannons.

brayzie

Thanks for the recommendation.
I had zero interest in seeing The Force Awakens, but my nephews wanted to see it, so I took them.
It was actually a fun film, and actually felt like Star Wars, compared to the prequels. It was mostly the humor that I liked.

Same goes for The Last Jedi. Nephews wanted to see it, I took them, enjoyed the movie for what it was. But it was more disappointing than TFA.
Even before JJ Abrams explained why TFA was so much like ANH, I knew why. They had to wash the taste of the prequels out, by making it familiar to the originals. Once Disney gets on the audience's good side again, then they could branch out more creatively in the sequels.
Didn't happen.

I'm sure ROGUE 1 and SOLO are going to be fun popcorn films, but I want something a little more than that. That's why I'm avoiding most Marvel/DC films.

That's a hard to question to answer when there's no end for the series.
The MCU films started the film-universe trend, so Disney has to keep Star Wars alive, indefinitely, like a Garfield strip, trying hard not to do anything too daring to create a split among fans, or piss off shareholders.

That's a pretty good observation.
I think that's part of what made the original Star Wars so appealing.

And that's probably one of many reasons why I disliked the prequels. Coruscant was like a fake looking Times Square New York. Then a scene out of American Graffiti. Felt a little too familiar, and too much like something from this galaxy, not too long ago.

Jason

The biggest problem with an Old Republic movie is that it almost has to be Jedi vs. Sith, and the prequel trilogy hobbled the entire franchise with the idiotic "Always two there are, a master and an apprentice. No more, no less." With only two Sith at any time, how were they ever anything more than a minor annoyance?

brayzie

After thinking about it, it makes sense, somewhat. The Sith are greedy, power hungry individuals, right. They only train one other person to be their apprentice, but only so they can do their dirty work, and once they fulfill their use, the master kills them. Or the apprentice wisens up and kills the master first.

But still pretty dumb.
The Sith implies many.
And yeah, why did an entire Jedi Order struggle fighting the Sith?
And Darth Maul saying, "finally, we'll get our revenge."
Who's the "we"? It's just Maul and Palpatine. And the Jedi didn't know they existed.
So revenge for what?

Mabuse

I don’t mean to be a jerk, but these questions do not need to be answered. Not in the film nor in a prequel. The lack of those answers is not what’s wrong with Phantom Menace. An explanation of those questions would not improve TPM, nor stand alone as a film subject. At least not a good one. This is the kind of thinking that lead to the prequels sucking.

brayzie

That's not what I meant.

When I first heard Maul say "finally, we'll get our revenge" in TPM, I was able to fill in the blanks.
I instantly imagined there was a rival Sith Order, that were probably conquering people/planets, whatever, and the Jedi stopped them, killing the remaining Sith.
I'm saying it's stupid though, when we later find out "Sith, always there are two, no more, no less."
So right away I was like, wait, that doesn't make sense considering what Maul said earlier.

It seemed like a very arbitrary rule too. And how can they be sure only two, no more no less?
Very poor writing.


I agree. We didn't need to see how Han won the Falcon, or that Greedo was a jerk as a child.

I need to see an explanation for every little thing. A little mystery is good.

Mike86

I guess I’m the type that doesn’t necessarily need everything spelled out for me, but I don’t mind when we get more background on certain characters and events. Just depends on how the story is presented. The two Disney prequels are good. The Prequel Trilogy overall is very disappointing, not because there’s not potential for the rise and fall of Anakin to be interesting but just because the films overall were poorly executed.

tanman

Star Wars is not Sci-fi. But you bring up a good point Star Wars is many things to many people. And I think that's the problem Disney is having. They're thinking too inside the box. I think they should try to branch out a little bit and present a fresh take on Star Wars. Kind of like how there are many different genres in the MCU now.

Rob V

Having a master / apprentice might be a new rule... or Yoda's misinterpretation of the rule... or Yoda being naive. I'd love a Sith v Jedi movie!

Josh-da-man

Yeah, that’s a part of it.

I think there’s also a high fantasy aspect to the universe with royal bloodlines, chosen ones, using swords, etc.

There’s a certain real world grit to it, and stories are as likely to take place in the back alleys as they are the halls of power.

So, yeah, it’s bits of samurai films, bits of westerns, bits of war movies, bits of fantasy. Which isn’t to say that ALL of these things need to be in every film, but Star Wars does have a certain feel to it. And there’s still a lot of room there to tell all kinds of stories.

Like Star Trek, Star Wars has a certain aesthetic, certain tone, and certain themes it deals with once you get past the spaceships and ray guns.