Super X

When did the Force become a Magic 8-Ball?

rocket1312

For better or for worse Palpatine was the main driving force of RotJ's narrative. He was clearly established as the primary threat to the rebellion, we get a fairly good understanding of his relationship to Vader and it's his manipulation that instigates the conflict and ultimate resolution between Luke and Vader. In other words, he served a narrative purpose. Snoke did not. I say this as someone who doesn't even particularly like Palpatine, so it's not like I view him with rose colored glasses.

And while I certainly can't speak for anyone else posting, but my beef with Snoke and his death death has nothing to do with any need or desire for a detailed backstory. What I would have liked was some sort of context. Palpatine didn't require much explanation because like most of the characters in the OT, he represented a pretty standard archetype. The political situation in the OT is rudimentary stuff and from the first moment the Emperor is mentioned in ep4 (dissolving the senate, etc.), we have a pretty good understanding of what is going on and where he fits in. One of my big issues with TFA was that Abrams/Lucasfilm was mainly interested with resetting the Empire/Rebellion dynamic, but failed to provide any satisfactory context. Any understanding we have about Snoke, seems to be tied to our previous understanding of Palpatine. That just seems lazy to me. Again, if Snoke had served more of a narrative purpose, I'd be more willing to fill in some of the holes on my own. Instead he was just a waste of time.

movieguru

Just saw this movie yesterday. The original trilogy was unique for it's time and stood out from other movies in its day. The new movies are getting hype because they are a "Star Wars" movie. If a similiar movie plot like this was done without the "Star Wars" name attatched to it, it would flop at the box office.

The acting by most was pretty bad and they try to shoehorn in some new aliens (like those little birds) not for storyline purposed but just so they can make some money merchandising these new aliens or new ships for that matter.

This movie will get all the hype and viewership, but there were really many better movies out there this year. "The Shape of Water" was a much better movie in a similiar genre. "Wonder" while not in the same genre, was much more enjoyable to watch.

fujishig

I mean, how many of the complainers are really so turned off that they're not going to see the next movie? This movie will be nitpicked to death but stuff like the humor, the porgs, etc. should play well to the non hardcore audience. I watched the movie with my wife first, but I'll take my daughter to it and I guarantee the porg will be a highlight of the film for her, and, like the audience I saw it with, she'll love the Kylo Ren/Rey/Snoke scene and the last Luke scene. She's not going to debate about Rey having had Luke's theme in the first movie, or why did you end on some random force kid. Now if Rey really turned that would have broken her heart, because really who the heck else is there on the good guy's side, incompetent Poe or useless Finn and Rose? Or a redeemed emo murderer?

The only thing I think everyone can agree on is that waste of time in the middle of the movie where they tried to make a point about war being bad on both sides and arms dealers making money, and how money is bad or something. Otherwise known as that worthless casino scene.

JeremyM

The much-hated casino scenes (I didn’t mind them) are also supposed to show how the Resistance is inspiring the galaxy in small ways which will presumably lead into the next one with a refortification of their ranks. It is probably too Kumbaya of a message for some, but it was saying that small actions like freeing alien race horses can lead to big change.

JackoOnHisBacko

Ask again later.

Orbi-Wan Techno

The Last Jedi is like the best pot of Texas Chili ever made, then somebody put chunks of tofu in it.

rennervision

For me, half the movie is stuff I like and half I don't like. It's not enough to make me swear off another one, but my excitement for IX has been diminished to the point where I don't see this as a must-see on opening day.

Unlike after TFA, there just wasn't any mystery teased with TLJ that made me exclaim "Oh I can't WAIT to see the next one!" I agree with others pointing out Kylo's story is much more interesting than Anakin's from the prequels, but I'm still pretty sure we're just going to see Rey defeat Ren who was deliberately set up in TFA as an inferior Vader wannabe. (Not exactly a plotline to get my juices flowing.) For a brief moment I thought the movie was going to be bold and different by having these two characters join forces, but alas it wasn't meant to be.

Draven

Like Leia kissing Luke in ESB and then becoming his sister in ROTJ? There is certainly precedent for a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants approach.

Why So Blu?

So? It was a big ass red herring. It's Star Wars -- it's built-in design is to make money -- and they're doing it by any means necessary. Good thing I'm one of those few that isn't "hurt" by something as trivial as a story arc not going where I wanted it to.

mcnabb

I can answer that easily for someone like me who absolutely disdains this movie. There is no hook to get me interested in Episode 9 after this movie.

While we can all debate how bad the PT was, Lucas had a hook for each movie culminating in how Darth Vader came to be in Episode 3. No matter how much people hated Episode 1 and 2, you still wanted to see how Darth Vader came to be in Episode 3.

Can someone explain to me what the hook of Episode 9 is? Is another battle between the Resistance vs First Order going to drive me to buy a ticket? Do we really care where the story goes with Rey and Kylo Ren at this point where Episode 9 is a must see?

Don’t get me wrong that fans will be there for Episode 9, but a lot of fans like me won’t.

outcastja

Yeah they will. No one hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans.

So they will need to watch it to either bitch how it sucks or they will be like thank god Abrams saved the franchise by making a safe Star Wars movie I'm familiar with like TFA.

mcnabb

Only time will tell in 2019, but I guarantee that Episode 9 Opening weekend and overall gross will not be as much as either TFA or TLJ. That’s all I’m saying, as of course most fans will see it but you will see a drop off in the Box office because of TLJ.

candyrocket786

I'll see it, but I'm not going to rush to theater on opening day with my fatass in a seat. I'll either wait of few weeks or when it hits digital. I did the same thing with AOTC after watching TPM. Never saw it in theaters (Clones) and finally watched it on DVD.

True, but you're referring to certain details. The OT did still have some sort of outline for the story. Johnson didn't even bother with anything laid out in TFA. His story is based on watching dailies/reading the script and he changed whatever he wanted.

Actually... who the fuck really knows anymore. Its more of make it up as you go mixed in with a little who gives a fuck. Its pointless debating it.



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/06/m...n-johnson.html

http://ew.com/movies/2017/12/16/the-...rey-parents/2/

rennervision

It's ironic that as a huge fan of Breaking Bad, Rian Johnson also happened to direct "Fly" - my least favorite episode from that series.

tanman

That and Obi-Wan saying Vader killed Luke's father. Those are the Only inconsistencies in the OT and you have to consider that Lucas didn't know if Star Wars was going to be successful enough to make any money let alone launch a worldwide phenomenon yet he still laid the groundwork for the trilogy. Did he have every detail planned? No. Did he at least have an ide where he wanted the story to go and major plot points like Vader being Luke's father? Yes. Think about how minor those inconsistencies are.

For this trilogy there is absolutely no excuse for not laying out the major plot points of the entire set of movies. Even though Irvin Kirshner had a different vision for Empire he still enacted the major plot points that Lucas wanted.

And this is what a lot of people don't understand. A majority of the legitimate criticisms of this movie isn't because people are "butthurt" that things didn't turn out the way fans wanted it to. It's because it seems like Rian Johnson went out of his way to destroy any and all interesting threads that JJ Abrams created in TFA. And to my surprise Disney let this happen. I thought there was a committee that was supposed to look over the overall Star Wars story and make sure everything fits into the overall narrative. A lot of people don't have issues with Rey being a nobody or Snoke going out like a bitch IF it serves the overall story. I really hope I'm wrong and it will all make sense when the story is complete but at this point it feels like Rian choose these controversial decisions Just for the sake of being different. So where does that leave eps 9. I'm not saying that I'm not going to watch it but it has certainly curtailed my excitement to see it.

And I actually liked this movie overall and it works on a lot of levels especially as a stand alone film. But I think the overall narrative will suffer just so people can call Rian bold. At this point I wish JJ didn't give up eps 8 so the whole trilogy could be more consistent.

tanman

Wow. This is really absurd. It's a multi billion dollar movie how could they not have any kind of a road map for where the story will go? That really just blows my mind. Why even make it a trilogy? Why not make 4 movies? Or just end it with this movie. All the threads seem to be cut off now so everything is resolved already. The whole point of a trilogy is to have some kind of overall narrative. Otherwise you're just making Jaws films.

I have really just lost a lot of faith in Lucasfilms. It all comes across as one big cash grab now. Who cares what the story is now? Lucas film certainly doesn't. Ooo look a Porg!

nodeerforamonth

Link?

nodeerforamonth

I think we have been introduced to Rey's father in The Last Jedi. Yes, he is a nobody.

tanman

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5a343517e4b01d429cc8bd59?ncid=APPLENEWS00001

joe_b

The notion that they've formed a dedicated story group to make sure everything is cohesive sounds like a joke after witnessing this movie. I mean, who is this Kiri Hart person they keep putting front and center? Apparently she's now the Senior VP of Lucasfilm. From her online credits, the most notable thing she'd done before overseeing the development of the biggest franchise in film history was working as a story editor on some Lifetime TV series starring Vivica A. Fox.

GreenMonkey

This. Not every bad guy needs a Wookiepedia-sized backstory. Snoke is bad, he's powerful, and when the Empire's leadership fell, he obviously stepped into the vacuum and seized power. I'm sure there will be a video game or a comic or something down the road to make the hardcore fan-geeks need to know everything about every character happy.

Citing music cues as the reason she must be a Kenobi or a Skywalker is weak. Talk about meta. How about the music was used because they're Jedi and the lightsaber is a Jedi artifact? Does the Imperial Death March used for Snoke imply he's the son of Darth Vader? Please.

I'm not quite sure about the symbolism of the cave yet. At a glance it seems to me that that force was telling her that it doesn't fucking matter who her parents are, SHE is what matters (since she only sees herself in the mirror). SHE goes to the cave because she's got fucking issues about being abandoned. Snoke and Ren tease her about it, Maz tells her her parents aren't coming back, etc. It needs to be addressed somehow. I'm not sure esoteric magic mirror scene was the best way to handle it, but Blade Runner handles this kind of stuff with fucking unicorn dreams, so, I dunno.


The whole movie hits you over the head with something along this kind of theme:



Rey is one of them, along with Finn and Rose and the broom kid from the Casino.

It's about the normal people, the downtrodden, standing up and fighting. I'm surprised how many people hate this and want Rey to be a Skywalker and Snoke to be a PT character and whatever.

I mean, they could have had Cate Blanchett come out in some sort of Star Wars outfit and say this exact line to half the characters and it would have totally made sense. The movie hits you over the head with this theme. It isn't exactly subtle.

Timber

So wait, how is Rey going to construct a new lightsaber? I can't imagine ghost Luke teaching her as he wasn't really a fan of hers. Was that the point of showing that she stole the Jedi journals? Is Ren an actual Sith (for that mater was Snoke) will he be getting an apprentice of his own?

JeremyM

Exactly right, GreenMonkey. That is the whole theme of the film and it might as well hit you across the head with it Yoda-style. People might not like that theme, but that's different from there not being one, which a lot of people seem to be claiming.

JeremyM

I am sure she will make her own lightsaber but I doubt the film will explicitly explain how she did it. That said, Luke did decide to get behind Rey ("I am not the last Jedi!") so no reason he won't advise her from the beyond.

I believe Kylo Ren was a Sith, but he says something about no more Jedi or Sith after he kills Snoke. I could see him reforming his Knights of Ren or whatever.