View Poll Results: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017)
What are you high?
0
0%
Voters: 205. You may not vote on this poll
Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
#3626
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
I can remember some grumbling around TFA because the protagonists were a woman and a black guy, but it didn’t really go anywhere.
But I don't think it's necessarily about a certain vocal group knowing which battles to pick. I mean, I'm sure that's the case with all groups that have some sort of an agenda. But like you said, some people even bitched about TFA, even less people, racists, bitched about a black guy playing Heimdall in Thor. Both outrages didn't really make an impact, especially in the case of Thor-that one was mostly confined to white supremacy forums.
What gains traction is when there's more to it then merely being a case of a female protagonist, or a black actor being cast.
In the case of Wonder Woman, Gal Gadot ended up being the best thing about B v S, and the trailer and eventual film for Wonder Woman was awesome. The final boss battle was crap, but other than that, a great superhero film.
Ghostbusters on the other hand, while not a bad film at all, was not that good. All the magic of the original film was missing from the remake. So you probably had a segment that was anti-woman, a segment that was just hardcore Ghostbuster purists, and another that simply thought it wasn't good.
But then, you had people like Milo, who were saying horrible things about Leslie Jones, and surprise surprise, it later turns out he was working with neo-Nazis and white supremacists. The dislikes were already there for Ghostbusters and people like him seized on the opportunity after the fact.
On one hand, this sounds like the accusations back in the 60s that the Civil Rights Movement was being fueled and funded by Russian commies to divide the country.
On another, it seems plausible considering that people like Milo Yiannopolous, who went after Ghostbusters AND The Last Jedi, also was a BIG time Trump supporter, who was sympathetic to the alt-right, and was getting cozy with neo-Nazis.
James Cameron Calls ‘Wonder Woman’ a ‘Step Backwards’ for Female Protagonists
https://variety.com/2017/film/news/j...ds-1202538440/
https://variety.com/2017/film/news/j...ds-1202538440/
#3627
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: A far green country
Posts: 5,960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
Some random, vapid internet “article” notwithstanding, I saw the film myself, and concluded that it was bad all by myself, without any influence or manipulation from any other source, Russian or otherwise.
#3628
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
It depends on what you mean by "hate." Sometimes it just means anything negative.
However, my impression is that there wasn't quite the level of outrage about Wonder Woman. One factor might've been that she was an established character with her own legacy. A big factor in recent backlashes seem to be women/minorities "taking over" franchises previously dominated by white men. Wonder Woman wasn't really replacing Superman or Batman in the DCU, like Rey and the new cast/characters are replacing the old cast/characters in Star Wars.
Edit: I forgot, but there was some internet complaining about a few "women only" screenings of Wonder Woman when it came out, with some people claiming discrimination.
Nobody is saying that there aren't real people with legitimate complaints. However, the study is saying that some of the worst aspects of the negative reactions to TLJ were artificially amplified by bots and trolls.
However, my impression is that there wasn't quite the level of outrage about Wonder Woman. One factor might've been that she was an established character with her own legacy. A big factor in recent backlashes seem to be women/minorities "taking over" franchises previously dominated by white men. Wonder Woman wasn't really replacing Superman or Batman in the DCU, like Rey and the new cast/characters are replacing the old cast/characters in Star Wars.
Edit: I forgot, but there was some internet complaining about a few "women only" screenings of Wonder Woman when it came out, with some people claiming discrimination.
Nobody is saying that there aren't real people with legitimate complaints. However, the study is saying that some of the worst aspects of the negative reactions to TLJ were artificially amplified by bots and trolls.
#3629
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
However, my impression is that there wasn't quite the level of outrage about Wonder Woman. One factor might've been that she was an established character with her own legacy.
For the actual film, I remember her bust size was supposedly an issue, but so was that fact that she didn't have hairy pits (historically inaccurate!). Was that last one significant or just the media outlets wanting to run a story? The bust size got turned into an issue of "body shaming" via men, but remember Michael Keaton being cast as Batman got a ton of backlash, pre-internet, because he wasn't buff and didn't have traditional leading man looks.
A big factor in recent backlashes seem to be women/minorities "taking over" franchises previously dominated by white men.
Back in the day Tim Burton cast a white guy as Batman, the public was outraged.
Zack Snyder casts a white guy as Lex Luthor in Batman v Superman, there was controversy.
Wonder Woman wasn't really replacing Superman or Batman in the DCU, like Rey and the new cast/characters are replacing the old cast/characters in Star Wars.
It wasn't until TLJ that many people had many different criticisms for that particular film.
People got mad when Luke got killed off. And because of the way he was portrayed. Even Mark Hamill had issue with that.
With Ghostbusters, most fans wanted a continuation of the series. Bill Murray and company are pretty much what made the film a success, the other portion of it was that it was actually scary and had a realistic NY feel to it. And the original featured a three white guys and a black guy as Ghostbusters. So it can't be confined to merely being about "white men."
I think a lot of this stuff is more nuanced, and can't be simplified to just outrage from "white males" feeling threatened.
#3630
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
Trying to say what "most fans" wanted is tricky, but even if most fans wanted a continuation with the same actors, it doesn't completely explain why that franchise reboot drew such ire over other franchise reboots. X-Men, First Class didn't draw that amount of ire, even though I'm sure plenty of fans wanted more films with the original class. Star Trek didn't get that amount of ire.
A lot of complaints were focused on not the fact that it was a reboot, but on one aspect of the reboot: that it was an all women cast. Even in this forum we had complaints of "women can't carry a 40 pound proton pack!"
Not everyone that disliked TLJ was right-wing complaining about "SJWs," but that was certainly a component, and one that bots & trolls could exploit and amplify to try and further divide Americans.
#3631
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
Star Wars is, I find, historically mostly apolitical. The biggest political message has generally been “Nazis are bad,” though these days there doesn’t seem to be a lot of consensus on that point.
If you scratch under the surface, though, there has always been a bit of left-leaning politics in it. Lucas himself has said that the Rebellion was inspired by the Viet-Cong, a tiny band of rebels who drove the American empire out of their country. And, if you look closely at the older movies, the Empire has been composed exclusively of humans, while the Rebellion and Jedi Order have included non-humans, which, while it’s never outright stated, seems to imply that the good guys promote “diversity” while the villains racist nationalists. It was never quite as overt as it was in TLJ, though, and even then I think the critics were overplaying it.
If you scratch under the surface, though, there has always been a bit of left-leaning politics in it. Lucas himself has said that the Rebellion was inspired by the Viet-Cong, a tiny band of rebels who drove the American empire out of their country. And, if you look closely at the older movies, the Empire has been composed exclusively of humans, while the Rebellion and Jedi Order have included non-humans, which, while it’s never outright stated, seems to imply that the good guys promote “diversity” while the villains racist nationalists. It was never quite as overt as it was in TLJ, though, and even then I think the critics were overplaying it.
I think the overall problem is that information is so democratic now. Everyone has a voice. Combine that with news outlets just thirsty clicks and you have an environment where nothing is vetted and anybody with a twitter and a dissenting opinion are quoted and made to look like they are a greater majority than they are just to make a sensational headline. The good news is I think a majority of the people are more reasonable than they are made to look by the news media and other sources of "information" Unfortunately this is making it look like our country is more divided then it really is. Basically reasonable quite people don't make headlines so it's the people on the extreme right and the extreme left that get quoted over and over again.
#3632
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
Apparently Warner Bros received 50,000 angry letters from fans. Even the producer was upset about Keaton.
Trying to say what "most fans" wanted is tricky,
but even if most fans wanted a continuation with the same actors, it doesn't completely explain why that franchise reboot drew such ire over other franchise reboots. X-Men, First Class didn't draw that amount of ire, even though I'm sure plenty of fans wanted more films with the original class. Star Trek didn't get that amount of ire.
X-Men is an adaptation of a comic book. Ghostbusters originated as a film.
Not to mention, both First Class and Star Trek featured the main characters, just much younger. In both films, the characters of Captain Kirk and Magneto are still Captain Kirk and Magneto.
Also, the rebooted Star Trek tried to bridge the old Trek with the new one by featuring Leonard Nimoy as older Spock or Spock Prime/whatever. It worked for the story, but also worked to ease older fans into accepting the new version.
A lot of complaints were focused on not the fact that it was a reboot, but on one aspect of the reboot: that it was an all women cast.
But did these people say they wanted a boys club only Ghostbusters too? Because I remember people saying they should have had a mixed gendered team, like on Extreme Ghostbusters.
It seemed like most of the people that were against an all women cast were saying that GB3 should have been made instead, continuing with Murray, and the rest. I don't remember anyone saying they should reboot it with new characters, and guys only. Except for maybe one poster here.
Even in this forum we had complaints of "women can't carry a 40 pound proton pack!"
There's certainly some people that didn't like some of those films for more nuanced reasons. But that doesn't mean that certain films didn't attract a lot more ire than others, and that they had some pretty publicly stated racist/sexist reasoning behind a lot of the complaints.
Milo did that with Ghostbusters, and was going after Leslie Jones in order, in my opinion, to score points with the racist element of the right wing.
That's not to say that these groups (white supremacists, Russian political operatives for ex) can't or haven't initiated them. I just don't think that some of the examples mentioned were started by them.
Then again, that dislike count for the GB trailer was insane.
Not everyone that disliked TLJ was right-wing complaining about "SJWs," but that was certainly a component, and one that bots & trolls could exploit and amplify to try and further divide Americans.
Wasn't there a prolific American Twitter user that posted anti-SJW stuff for years, and it turned out to be an individual posting from Russia?
It wouldn't surprise me if that the case here. Putin is playing 4D chest for real. I think his troll army started when he invaded Crimea and the comment section of American news sites were flooded with posters typing in bad English about how America is hypocrite for criticizing Russia who is just there to protect.
Last edited by brayzie; 10-04-18 at 01:06 AM.
#3634
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
https://web.archive.org/web/20130922...on-ben-affleck
The suspicion voiced by hundreds of angry fans was that ”Batman” would be a campy send-up similar to the self-parodying but hugely popular 1960′s television series.
”Most people think of the TV show when they think of Batman,” says Maggie Thompson, co-editor of ”The Comic Buyer’s Guide,” the industry bible. ”But that was a series Batman fans saw as ridiculing the art form. The discrepancy between the fan’s idea and the average guy’s image of Batman is a real problem for Warners...
”Most people think of the TV show when they think of Batman,” says Maggie Thompson, co-editor of ”The Comic Buyer’s Guide,” the industry bible. ”But that was a series Batman fans saw as ridiculing the art form. The discrepancy between the fan’s idea and the average guy’s image of Batman is a real problem for Warners...
https://forum.dvdtalk.com/movie-talk...-mckinnon.html
https://forum.dvdtalk.com/movie-talk...16-d-feig.html
https://forum.dvdtalk.com/movie-talk...-thread-8.html
One person can complain multiple times. But while that specific complaint may only have been uttered by one person, I was using it as an example of the type of complaints about the movie.
Personally, I thought the new Ghostbusters movie was underwhelming. It was entertaining, but nowhere as good as the original, and somewhat forgettable. But I recognized the misogyny in the pre-release comments and reviews.
Yes, but in order for the trend to be co-opted and exploited, it has to first [b]exist[b], at least in a reduced form.
#3635
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
X-Men is an adaptation of a comic book. Ghostbusters originated as a film.
Most people don't care where a film "originates" from. The majority of people that watch the Xmen films have never read an X-Men comic.
Depends. In terms of the X-Men comic I agree. But when it comes to something like Ghostbuster there is a difference. Ghostbusters is an iconic movie of the 80's and an iconic brand that still holds resonance today. Decades of people know Ghostbusters as Venkman, Zeddemore, Spangler and Stantz. Just like Star Trek is Kirk, Spock etc.
Go review the threads. There was a lot of vitrol about the idea of female ghostbusters:
There was also a lot of vitriol if anyone DARED to question what appeared to be a lazy reboot cash grab from people who felt like it was their honor to defend all womanhood against these terrible men. It was a two way street.
No, but there were misogynists, and they drove a significant amount of the conversation, to the point one of the threads here had to be locked.
Personally, I thought the new Ghostbusters movie was underwhelming. It was entertaining, but nowhere as good as the original, and somewhat forgettable. But I recognized the misogyny in the pre-release comments and reviews.
Not everyone that disliked TLJ was right-wing complaining about "SJWs," but that was certainly a component, and one that bots & trolls could exploit and amplify to try and further divide Americans.
I just don't think that there was a significant portion of people who disliked the Ghostbusters reboot were misogynists. But I think that once there's a trend out there, people and groups with certain agendas will seize the opportunity to co-opt the trend for their own means.
However, the thought that TLJ was being downvoted by Russian trolls is an assinine concept and even the paper is terribly written. Case in point, it's someone pushing an agenda.
#3636
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
50,000 letters is a lot, but the articles at the time quoted the complainers stating that most people knew Batman from Adam West. They were afraid the new Batman would be more of the same:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130922...on-ben-affleck
It was newsworthy, but not indicative of the public perception at large.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130922...on-ben-affleck
It was newsworthy, but not indicative of the public perception at large.
And it wasn't just about worries that it would be campy or comedic. He was getting, what we call today, body shamed.
I don't like Keaton as the Batman. It has nothing to do with his comedy roles. I consider that a plus, actually. What worris me is his looks. Keaton does not look tough. In Touch and Go, he tried to play a tough, macho hockey player and looked really absurd. I think he'll look just as absurd as the Batman.
"If you saw him in an alley wearing a bat suit, you would laugh, not run in fear. Batman should be 6-2, 235 pounds, your classically handsome guy with an imposing, scary image."
I said that he’s my height, he doesn’t have the muscles; for god’s sake, he doesn’t have the square jaw of Batman.
link
Most people don't care where a film "originates" from. The majority of people that watch the Xmen films have never read an X-Men comic.
Kids grew up on watching Tom Welling play Superman in Smallville, then see Brandon Routh playing the character, and then a little later Henry Cavill.
The same can't be said for something like Ghostbusters. To most people there's only been one iteration of that story, and the rest know additionally of the cartoon, but that also featured the same characters: Venkman, Stantz, Zeddemore, and Spengler.
How'd that work for Solo?
One person can complain multiple times. But while that specific complaint may only have been uttered by one person, I was using it as an example of the type of complaints about the movie.
Everyone else here complaining about an all-female Ghostbusters movie were complaining that it was gimmick.
Yes, but in order for the trend to be co-opted and exploited, it has to first exist, at least in a reduced form.
Last edited by brayzie; 10-04-18 at 02:07 PM.
#3637
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
This thread is officially derailed and totally nonredeemable. I hate TLJ even more for this.
#3639
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
And it’s helped me realize I was right to love it so much
Last edited by Draven; 10-07-18 at 12:43 PM.
#3640
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
Lol it is a horrible awful movie with maybe the dumbest plot ever of a major film. It literally has no redeeming quality. Pure, completely illogical pretentious crap. Literally every one I have talked to has been at best lukewarm on it to most hating it. All this stuff is fake news engineered by the studio and the hack director.
#3641
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
Lol it is a horrible awful movie with maybe the dumbest plot ever of a major film. It literally has no redeeming quality. Pure, completely illogical pretentious crap. Literally every one I have talked to has been at best lukewarm on it to most hating it. All this stuff is fake news engineered by the studio and the hack director.
#3642
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
#3643
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
#3644
DVD Talk Godfather
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
In my opinion, people assuming or acting like this was the crux of the Ghostbusters threads is part of the reason why they were a shit show and kept getting locked.
#3645
DVD Talk Legend
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vichy America
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
People were excited for a new Ghostbusters movie until the moment they heard the words "female Ghostbusters." Then they spent over a year, starting even before the first day of filming, predicting it would be awful based solely upon the casting decision.
#3646
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
I mostly stayed out of posting in those heated threads. From what I remember though it was both sides stirring the pot. The problem is that you had people who took it too far on both sides. Either you had certain posters who came off blatantly as mysogonists or posters on the other side pretty much accusing others of being one and there was very little middle ground.
It doesn’t seem like that’s playing as big a role in people not liking this film and I’m not exactly sure what even brought us to that. It seems more that people (myself included) have issues with decisions made in the story and with certain characters more than anything. I wouldn’t doubt there are some closed minded people out there who can’t accept a woman or minority in the role but at least here that seems pretty minimal as far as complaints go.
It doesn’t seem like that’s playing as big a role in people not liking this film and I’m not exactly sure what even brought us to that. It seems more that people (myself included) have issues with decisions made in the story and with certain characters more than anything. I wouldn’t doubt there are some closed minded people out there who can’t accept a woman or minority in the role but at least here that seems pretty minimal as far as complaints go.
Last edited by Mike86; 10-08-18 at 12:43 PM.
#3647
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
People can have legit, non-sexist, non-racist complaints about the films. But that doesn't mean the sexist, racist complaints didn't exist.
#3648
DVD Talk Legend
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vichy America
Posts: 13,533
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
The fact is, the Ghostbusters movie turned out to be perfectly mediocre -- but no more so than a dozen other remakes/reboots from the last fifteen years that nobody got up in arms about. If people had waited for the movie to come out and said, "Yeah, it's not that great," it would've been no big deal. But the oversized reaction, even before filming began, was ridiculous.
#3649
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
It was because the Russian trolls specifically were exploiting the "SJWs" complaints about this film. It may not have been as extreme a reaction as it was for Ghostbusters, but it still existed in the wider internet, if not specifically in this thread.
People can have legit, non-sexist, non-racist complaints about the films. But that doesn't mean the sexist, racist complaints didn't exist.
People can have legit, non-sexist, non-racist complaints about the films. But that doesn't mean the sexist, racist complaints didn't exist.
#3650
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
predicting this thread will be locked in 3,2,1...