Franchot

I'm also in the camp who sees this movie as a disappointment and misstep. The message and story that was set forth by The Force Awakens (and the entire Star Wars trilogy) hit a brick wall this time.

After all the rave reviews I heard from the premiere audience, I booked a seat because the spoilers were coming out everywhere and I wanted to be just as surprised as they were and wanted to experience all that goodness. I wanted to see how Rian Johnson resolved and moved forward the threads began in The Force Awakens. The result: the threads were merely snipped off without any satisfying resolutions. The pay offs weren't connected to the set ups in the previous film(s.) Basic storytelling and plot structure took a left turn because the driver (RJ) didn't want to go down the expected road because he wanted to explore new and different territory. Unfortunately, his destination left us in a Star Wars universe that wasn't true to the previous Star Wars canon. Different for the sake of being different.

There are many ways to travel down the same road and make it interesting and exciting and feel new. It's done in the Mission:Impossible and the Captain America films. John Ford made some of the greatest westerns by staying true to the western theme:
RJ is a lazy filmmaker because it's easier to just throw out a bunch of stuff instead of working with what you have and improve upon that. That takes discipline and true screenwriting and directing genius. TLJ could have been so much better. RJ had a wealth of characters and situations at his disposal, but instead we get different for different's sake.

If Rian Johnson was given the task of finishing up the movie called...The Great Escape...and J.J. Abrams directed the first half of the movie setting up the characters and the ordeals and the preparations necessary to have the POWs escape in the second half, RJ would probably come in and have the prisoners not attempt an escape. Instead he would have the prisoners wait it out until the war is over...and while they are waiting they would set up a gambling casino in their barracks.

Still, I gave the movie two and half stars because it was nice to see the familiar Star Wars characters again--even if in most cases they did not act like Star Wars characters. There was just enough of the old Star Wars in this film to keep it from being an unwatchable movie. I rewatched TFA last night and despite the rehashing of previous Star Wars films enjoyed it so much more than TLJ. Just my opinion, of course.

Franchot

So right you are!

Artman

Great write up. How do you mean not being true to cannon? Was it the smaller things like Luke throwing the saber, or the bigger plot elements?

Besides not having Snoke anymore (which is by far the biggest issue I have), everything else more or less ended how I expected. Always figured it was a 50/50 chance if Luke lived past this film....but they'll still use him in ghost form, which this movie expanded on quite a bit.(appearance, ability to interact with the physical world)

I'm glad to have JJ back for 9, book ending this trilogy. A home run from him would go a long way to maybe right the ship.(for those who didn't like this film)

Michael Corvin

Yeah I don't get the "not fitting in with previous canon" argument. Is it because Luke in a moment of weakness had a dark thought about Ben? The flippant light saber bit that he has no use for since he hasn't felt the force in years? Due tell.

dhmac

I'm glad someone posted this video review because - aside from the Luke/Kylo Ren/Rey/Snoke stuff which were rather good - when it comes to pretty much everything else in the movie, I agree completely with this review.

(Much as the Prequels made me wish they had stopped with the Original Trilogy, this movie makes me wish they had stopped with the Prequels)

candyrocket786

Yeah.. he pretty much nailed it. Also like the use of the clip where Luke drinks the titty milk.

JTH182

I think the lightsaber flip would have been more palatable had he used the same motion as when he tossed it in RotJ.

There is no excuse for titty milk.

OldBoy

i also didn't really like the million sighs and looks down we get from Leia. little overdone imo...

ViewAskewbian

I see we've got to the point where we are talking about how shitty the sighs were in the film. On that note, there was a rock in one of the training scenes I thought looked a little too much like Wyoming.

Draven

That makes no sense. The characters in TLJ didn’t abandon their plans and goals - they are still fighting the New Order. They just didn’t move forward in the way everyone expected.

For example, instead of a grizzled Luke guiding Rey in training montages we got something completely different. But Rey still ended up learning what she needed to know. She didn’t quit the rebellion to open her own freeze-dried food emporium (which is what your example would call for).

I love any time a movie does something unexpected. How many times have we seen a bad guy monologue while the hero just stands there? Snoake does it and gets taken out for it. Fantastic! No one expected that! The whole movie is filled with moments like that.

Double_Oh_7

It DOES make sense in that RJ abandons everything that was set up for him in TFA. And it's not that they they didn't move forward the way everyone expected, it's that they didn't move forward AT ALL.

fujishig

I brought this exact same thing up earlier when Hammil's objection was posted. But that's another thing the prequels ruined, Obi Wan beat Anakin and just retreated with Yoda, allowing the Empire to flourish under his turned Padawan. This is the exact same thing that happens to Luke. And you can even argue Luke's death will propel Rey on to become what she's supposed to.

I rewatched TFA today with the kids. My first reaction was that Karnak was in the movie, then I thought how sad it is that I will always relate Ken Leung to that PoS marvel miniseries. The other thing is that, if it isn't reverted, it really is messed up that Rey waited so long for her parents to come back, when apparently she could have escaped Jakku much earlier, but she felt it was her destiny. And Maz tells her they're not coming back, that the comraderie she's looking for is going forward. But I don't even think we see any indication that anyone was coming back for her except for her fervent hopes and dreams. In a sense that does more for her character than her being a Skywalker.

Also I liked Finn a lot better in the first movie. And I kinda feel like isolating the three main characters this movie did them no favors, so I hope they at least get a lot more interaction in the next film.

Franchot

No, in The Great Escape example the POWs would eventually escape the prison camp (because the war ended) if they just waited things out instead of orchestrating a daring escape. Same result (prisoners freed), just something completely different. JJ Abrams set up in TFA what TLJ should have hopefully accomplished in regards to plot, character, and structure and RJ failed to follow through with a logical and coherent movie.

As far as deviating from the canon: ghosts can now somehow interact with the physical world? Luke doesn't give a shit about the Rebels or the Resistance and has to be continually coaxed through more than half the movie to do something? (Even Obi Wan was quick to pick up his light saber in A New Hope and get back into the war when he received that distress message from Princess Leia. And Luke was a greater Jedi than Obi Wan.) Anybody off the street can now somehow control and use the Force? Even a kid with a broom who has no formal training? (I used to think that the Jedi were like the exalted Knights of the Round Table--only a few could rise to that rank through rigorous training and experience, but now just read the Cliff Notes and you're good to go.) Leia Superwoman?

I could go on, but if you enjoy the abrupt turn that TLJ has made, then so be it.

Artman

Regarding force ghosts...in ANH we hear Ben's voice, in Empire his ghostly form, in Jedi him interacting with the environment...I don't think they planned it this way but jumping 30+yrs into the future I don't see anything wrong with their ability to further their appearance and abilities. (which the Yoda scene showed)

And regarding the force...we just had a movie called "The Force Awakens"...and this movie showed that it apparently can now choose anyone. It isn't bound by family lineage or...God forbid...midichlorians. I think this is a good move!

Franchot

We (and other characters) hear and see Ben walking and talking and doing things or Ben's voice and vision is only perceivable by/to Luke who is tuned into the Force? Big difference. When Yoda sent out that lightning bolt in TLJ, I felt that Star Wars had headed into Topper territory.

Yup. The next movie should be great because the Force can apparently choose anyone, probably even Porgs. Everybody sitting back in their chairs and using Force Mind Control and the Force Choke on people on different planets while the Force Ghosts do all the physical fighting. Should be fantastic.

Michael Corvin

Just because Yoda and Ben chose not to interact in the real world as ghosts doesn't mean they didn't have that ability. We just weren't shown that ability. Force ghosts have never been explained anyway, so to rule one way or another without more info doesn't make sense. Maybe in 40 years as an apparition Yoda learned how to interact with the world.

Luke not wanting to help? You mean this 60 year old man isn't the idealistic teenager ready to rush into battle anymore? What?? People change. Sounds like people wanted Luke to not grow as a character, and just wanted him to grab his saber, rush in and save the day. Then there would be complaints that it's too similar to ESB.

Multiple Jedi: We were shown dozens of Jedi in the prequels. Whose assumption is it that only certain families/lineage can be force sensitive? You even have the shitty ass midichlorians "science-based" in this universe that puts a big red neon sign out there letting you know anyone can be born attuned to the force. All one needs is a few certain blood cells floating around in their bloodstream. So in this argument "anyone can be a Jedi" isn't canon as it only pertains to the OT? Even then, where in the OT do they say only select people "get" the force? Then if you take into account the original EU novels, comics and games, it's been clear for decades that anyone can be born force sensitive. If George wanted the force limited to certain families, it would have been established a long time ago. He had veto power on all these projects.

I get not liking these plot points, but for some to claim some overarching "not canon" debate is silly. What you mean to say is "not MY canon."

Super X

Sorry, but that's just straight out not true. Rey's conception of her role in the grand scheme of things is different than it was at the beginning of the film, Finn was taking a more proactive role in events than he was willing to do in the first film, Poe learned that being a hero can incorporate surviving to fight another day, Luke regained a peace with his past, etc. Characters did not stay static, they grew through the course of the film, just as the status quo where the First Order and the Resistance were concerned changed. So, yes, things moved forward, just not in the ways that some people wanted them to.

stingermck

Damn, 77% drop.

So much like Lucas after The Phantom Menace, is Johnson now the most hated man in the Star Wars Universe?

candyrocket786

I wonder if he'll be attending Celebration 2019?

Surely fans will have forgotten TLJ by then.

Troy Stiffler

Damn. I'm just a casual Star Wars fan. But I thought this movie was pretty great. It's hard to curb internet fanboy negativity. I'm interested in seeing how people see The Last Jedi come 1-2 years from now.

JeremyM

So now we're complaining that Yoda, the wisest Jedi of all, has learned a few new tricks as a Force ghost? Obi Wan even said he would become "more powerful than you can imagine" if Darth "struck him down."

How is that inconsistent? Like the movie or don't, I don’t care, but a lot of these nitpicks make no sense.

Draven

It actually makes sense that a Force ghost could use the Force, even if just in a small way. It didn’t even occur to me that it was in any way weird that Yoda could do that.

thematahara

Count me down as someone who enjoyed it. They could have cut the whole casino Finn/Rose plot, as that added nothing to the movie, unless they were looking for a way to pull in Del Toro to cause more rebel death.

It definitely wasnt perfect, but it was way better than the Force Awakens.

There may have been a time where I cared enough to deep dive into the cannon and pick nits, but whatever fanboyism I had for this series died with the prequels.

The sooner they cut bait with the original cast and give the reins to the new cast, the better.

mcnabb

I’ve come to the conclusion that this movie will be re-evaluated when it comes to Bluray as both sides are too extreme right now (including myself).

There are too many fans doubling down that this is a masterpiece, as there is no way you can use that word when a movie is out a week as it sometimes takes years to really digest a movie and come to that conclusion.

But my side (including me) is no better as we’ve given up on the movie altogether and it atleast deserves another chance as I’m interested to see how I feel after a 2nd viewing. Right now I’m just mad and it’s better I don’t see it until the spring when it comes out on Bluray.

I’m sure many will meet somewhere in the middle after re-evaluation. The masterpiece side will say they still love it but not as great as they thought. And the haters will say it’s not their favorite SW movie, but not as bad as they thought.

Michael Corvin

Who said it's a masterpiece though? Seems like 99.99% of people hate the casino plot so that alone keeps the film from being a masterpiece.

Never crossed my mind either until reading the complaints here. I just thought it was cool that one of the most badass jedis that ever lived just set a tree on fire to teach one more lesson to a hard headed Luke (some things never change).