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Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

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Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Old 03-05-19, 04:02 PM
  #3851  
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by DaveyJoe View Post
Is there any evidence that supports this?
Im not trying to say that Im totally right on this. I never really have and my post was largely in hyperbole. I didnt think people would take it so literally, and I dont know for sure that he wanted to sabotage the film or the franchise. Its a gut feeling largely that he cared more about putting his personal stamp on the franchise and not wanting to give the fans what they wanted.

I do think though that if you read various interviews with Hamill you can kinda tell he knew something was up from early on. Not a sabotage but I think he knew certain choices would stir things up in the wrong way.
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Old 03-05-19, 04:05 PM
  #3852  
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
I'm not the one that said, basically, "don't bother to show you're right, I won't believe you."

I can concede I'm wrong, if presented with the evidence I'm wrong. Which is why I asked Hokeyboy for an example of the "mountain " of evidence he claimed. So go ahead, prove me wrong, provide some evidence.
I was mocking you because of how ridiculous it is that you need to have evidence to back up your posts. A discussion can happen just based on opinions. Not everything has to have citations to prove a point or how you feel about something. You over-analyze things way too much.

I shouldnt need to give evidence of Lucas having some sort of plan for the saga. Its out there and you know it is. Theres evidence to the contrary as well, and Im aware of that. All that me finding quotes or articles like you do is going to accomplish is that Ill find something, youll discard it with something that fits the narrative of your argument and well go in circles with each other. Im not playing your game.
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Old 03-05-19, 04:10 PM
  #3853  
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by dex14 View Post
Give it a rest.
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Old 03-05-19, 04:14 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
So that's why they come across that way in the bonus features. Makes sense.
The makers of The Hamster Factor, the documentary covering the making of 12 Monkeys, tell a story of how they shot and edited a compelling scene where Bruce Willis had come back for pickups, after starting production on the next Die Hard, and Terry Gilliam was struggling to get Bruce out of his "John McClain" persona and back to the more vulnerable, nuanced performance Bruce was doing for 12 Monkeys. Eventually Bruce gets there, and the scene is shot, and it's a triumph of creativity. But Bruce, who, like all the actors, had final say on what footage of theirs appeared in the documentary, had them cut that bit, because he felt it made him look bad. And that was before the internet. Nowadays, any footage like that would immediately become "watch Bruce Willis fail at acting" click-bait.

Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
Fans like us MIGHT have a better grasp on how characters might act, since we've had all this time since childhood to think about it, creating our own stories in our heads. But when it comes down to also making the story relevant to modern audiences, and creating story elements that surprise fans and non-fans a like, that's something else entirely different. It's a professional art as well as a business.
There's also many, many, many more of us watching the film than making the film, so any criticism has the "benefit" of crowdsourcing. I didn't really notice the "Leia ignoring Chewy" scene in TFA, but someone did. There's probably people out there for whom C3PO is their favorite character, so would notice any perceived slight of the character, or failure to acknowledge him. Fans also have the advantage of time, going back to the film for repeat viewings after it's finalized, for years after.

Patton Oswalt did a funny bit about a plot inconsistency in Die Hard one may notice after watching it dozens of times:
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Old 03-05-19, 04:18 PM
  #3855  
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

R2-D2 is my favorite character in the whole Star Wars universe and I didn't even notice his lack of presence in TFA, because obviously they were making BB-8 the fun new droid of the franchise.
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Old 03-05-19, 04:19 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Mike86 View Post
I was mocking you because of how ridiculous it is that you need to have evidence to back up your posts. A discussion can happen just based on opinions.
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.
― Harlan Ellison

Originally Posted by Mike86 View Post
I shouldnt need to give evidence of Lucas having some sort of plan for the saga. Its out there and you know it is...
Not for the OT, there isn't. At least, nothing except claims Lucas made long after the fact. Sure, the PT had a plan, or at least an arc, not that it helped the films themselves much.
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Old 03-05-19, 04:32 PM
  #3857  
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
Not for the OT, there isn't. At least, nothing except claims Lucas made long after the fact. Sure, the PT had a plan, or at least an arc, not that it helped the films themselves much.
To be clear Im not defending Lucas a hundred percent. Im just going by things Ive read or interviews where hes claimed his intentions for the saga. Some of it probably is bullshit I agree, but Im not going to say I know that with certainty because Im not him and I dont know what was in his mind.
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Old 03-05-19, 06:02 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
Eventually Bruce gets there, and the scene is shot, and it's a triumph of creativity. But Bruce, who, like all the actors, had final say on what footage of theirs appeared in the documentary, had them cut that bit, because he felt it made him look bad. And that was before the internet. Nowadays, any footage like that would immediately become "watch Bruce Willis fail at acting" click-bait.
That's the bad thing about the internet and things that have the potential to go viral. Do you happen to know what specific scene they're talking about?

I also just want to add one more thing about the Yoda scene in TLJ.
Again, I thought it was kind of odd that Yoda was once again acting like the crazy old kook that he was only pretending to be when he first encountered Luke on Dagobah.
But look at the importance of the scene: Luke is seeing Yoda once again, after all these years. It's supposed to be a big deal, and we the audience are supposed to feel the same way Luke does. But that's difficult for us since we've seen Yoda in The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and in Revenge of the Sith. Seeing Yoda is not a big deal to the audience anymore, and after seeing him ricochet around like Sonic the Hedgehog in ROTS, it's like the character jumped the shark. Not to mention he was an unlikable asshole throughout the prequel trilogy.

So Rian Johnson has the task of trying to make it seem like we're seeing this character for the first time in a long while AND make him appear likable again. Johnson has go to be a problem solver at this point.
So they bring back the ESB-looking puppet, and bring back the crazy old kook persona, and at a subconscious level for audience members like me, it's like "Hey, now that's the Yoda I grew up with!"And it does feel like it's been a long time since we've seen him, even though we saw him all throughout the 2000s in his serious, gruff, CGI self.

I have to give a lot of credit for Rian Johnson for dealing with some of these problems and finding solutions that work.
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Old 03-05-19, 06:18 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”
― Harlan Ellison
”Star Wars is adolescent nonsense.”

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Old 03-05-19, 06:34 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

I take it Ellison wasn't a fan?
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Old 03-05-19, 07:20 PM
  #3861  
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
Star Wars is adolescent nonsense.

Harlan Ellison
He was just pissed some kid keyed his car after overhearing that Harlan didn't like the movie.

He did reportedly really like Empire Strikes Back:
Harlan Ellison Webderland: Book Reviews -
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Old 03-05-19, 07:36 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

That's a pretty good criticism of the first Star Wars.
I view the original as more of an identifiable homage to the serials of Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers.
Empire Strikes Back is still black and white with good vs bad, but it seems more like it's own thing.
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Old 03-06-19, 06:07 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
I view the original as more of an identifiable homage to the serials of Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers.
.
I think Lucas was making SW in 1977 with that exact frame of reference, but the movie actually goes deeper into mythology/drama than even he thought. SW is a standalone film (that was made without sequels in mind, even though I'm sure Lucas had rough ideas if he could make sequels). So the movie is no different than The Wizard of Oz in that the characters aren't really fleshed out and are typical archaetypes (The farmboy, the wizard, the princess, the smuggler, the villain). But there were deeper themes in there, and that is why I think it is one of the greatest movies of all-time, IMO. It was somehow able to mesh the cheesy serials with a heroes journey and package it together so one doesn't step on the others foot. You can watch it as just a fun movie, yet you can watch it for it's deeper themes, and that is real hard to do.

I would even go on to say that the Original SW would be better regarded by the public if there were no sequels/prequels in 2019 (I think the fanbase has sort of made the franchise a punchline of nerds in their basement). Sure there wouldn't be the rapid fanbase of idiots like us who debate stupid (but fun) shit everyday, as the movie would kind of stand on its own and be what it was intended to be. If you look at the movie in the context of being a standalone (without all of the twists in the sequels/prequels), Lucas doesn't get credit for creating this new world that nobody ever saw before. The lived-in universe, lightsabers, Deathstar, Spaceships, The Force, it just doesn't get its due because we've had 40 years of dilluding the product. ESB is probably a better made movie and has the advantage of doing what it wants and leaving the loose ends to ROTJ, but I still feel SW 77 is a better movie overall.
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Old 03-06-19, 10:43 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

I agree, Coli, and to me that's why having the original, non-CGI versions available is so important. Lucas and his team accomplished something extraordinary! Putting the CGI sheen on it diminishes it in my eyes. I love watching it as it was.
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Old 03-06-19, 10:52 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
That's the bad thing about the internet and things that have the potential to go viral. Do you happen to know what specific scene they're talking about?

I also just want to add one more thing about the Yoda scene in TLJ.
Again, I thought it was kind of odd that Yoda was once again acting like the crazy old kook that he was only pretending to be when he first encountered Luke on Dagobah.
But look at the importance of the scene: Luke is seeing Yoda once again, after all these years. It's supposed to be a big deal, and we the audience are supposed to feel the same way Luke does. But that's difficult for us since we've seen Yoda in The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and in Revenge of the Sith. Seeing Yoda is not a big deal to the audience anymore, and after seeing him ricochet around like Sonic the Hedgehog in ROTS, it's like the character jumped the shark. Not to mention he was an unlikable asshole throughout the prequel trilogy.

So Rian Johnson has the task of trying to make it seem like we're seeing this character for the first time in a long while AND make him appear likable again. Johnson has go to be a problem solver at this point.
So they bring back the ESB-looking puppet, and bring back the crazy old kook persona, and at a subconscious level for audience members like me, it's like "Hey, now that's the Yoda I grew up with!"And it does feel like it's been a long time since we've seen him, even though we saw him all throughout the 2000s in his serious, gruff, CGI self.

I have to give a lot of credit for Rian Johnson for dealing with some of these problems and finding solutions that work.
I agree with this and his acting mischievously also served the story--Yoda was knocking Luke down a peg.
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Old 03-06-19, 12:47 PM
  #3866  
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

As an aside, if you've never read Harlan Ellison's Watching... please do. It's some of the most entertaining and incisive film criticism ever put to print. Because of that book I discovered the films of Val Lewton and I'm forever grateful for that.
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Old 03-06-19, 03:55 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

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Old 03-07-19, 11:24 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Galaxy's Edge opens May 31 in Disneyland and August 29 in Disney World.
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Old 03-07-19, 11:29 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by stvn1974 View Post
That meme is a big fail. Who ever asks which specific scene of a movie someone wants to watch? The "joke" is way too forced.
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Old 03-07-19, 01:26 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by kefrank View Post
That meme is a big fail. Who ever asks which specific scene of a movie someone wants to watch? The "joke" is way too forced.
It was funny
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Old 03-07-19, 02:17 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by kefrank View Post
The "joke" is way too forced.
No pun intended!

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Old 03-07-19, 03:03 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Hokeyboy View Post
It was funny
You forgot to do the handwave.


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Old 03-08-19, 10:45 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
Was really the problem with the scene for you that Leia using the Force came "out of left field"? Who would she have done a Jedi Mind Trick on? When? Why? Create a specific example scene of what you think could've improved it, without damaging pacing or seeming unnecessary.
I said it over a year ago but with a slight tweak it could have been much better. Instead of the fake out of her being blown into space and starting to freeze over then magically floating in space have her blown out and fighting for her life then calming down and using the force with an outstretched hand to pull herself back. You can have her lose consciousness right before getting to the airlock. That way they can still demonstrate that she does have some force ability but in a more realistic manner. The reason why it's out of the blue is because RJ put the unnecessary fake out with her floating for a minute or two unconscious in space and freezing over. They really should have changed that especially in light of Carrie Fisher's death.
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Old 03-08-19, 11:14 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by tanman View Post
The reason why it's out of the blue is because RJ put the unnecessary fake out with her floating for a minute or two unconscious in space and freezing over...
I just timed it, it's about a minute 15 seconds between the bridge exploding and Leia twitching. Most of that minute spent on the bridge of The First Order, potentially acting in parallel to the next scene, not all before. We only see Leia floating in space for about 10-15 seconds before she twitches and then starts using the Force.

Reviewing this scene, I rewatched the one before it, and the intercutting between Leia and Kylo's faces heavily implies a Force connection between them, similar to how Leia sensed Luke at the end of ESB. So the movie reminds the audience of Leia's Force sensitivity right before it shows her do the Force pull.
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Old 03-09-19, 06:09 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Jay G. View Post
I just timed it, it's about a minute 15 seconds between the bridge exploding and Leia twitching. Most of that minute spent on the bridge of The First Order, potentially acting in parallel to the next scene, not all before. We only see Leia floating in space for about 10-15 seconds before she twitches and then starts using the Force.

Reviewing this scene, I rewatched the one before it, and the intercutting between Leia and Kylo's faces heavily implies a Force connection between them, similar to how Leia sensed Luke at the end of ESB. So the movie reminds the audience of Leia's Force sensitivity right before it shows her do the Force pull.
Potentially acting in parallel meaning she was out in space for that 75 seconds, my estimate of a minute or two was correct. Either way it doesn't matter the exact time but that it's an intentional fake out. I don't mind her having force powers that part I thought was cool. But to have her freezing over seemingly dead and then somehow out of the blue force pull herself to safety while unconscious was a bit much. If it was done a bit better I think it would have come across as way less cheesy.
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