View Poll Results: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017)
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Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
#3776
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
After reading through the discussions here (which i'm really enjoying), I've really come to the conclusion why I prefer the Standalones over the Saga movies these days. I think the Saga movies get bogged down by these open ended plot points that force (no pun intended) to tie everything together. Whether you agree with Rey Nobody or not, that plot point has essentially taken over the narrative as there is still many theories going around that she may have some lineage to a Jedi Master in Episode 9. A great/developed character arc for Rey would be much more interesting than who her parents are? But once JJ left her last name out, then the speculation began. The same with Snoke in that they couldn't just create a great villain, but now the whole narrative is about whether he is Darth Plaguis or created by The Emperor, etc. Now of course many fans/internet are guilty of playing up all of these possibilities, but when they leave many of these things open-ended, it just creates more speculation.
I guess my point is that the Standalones don't get saddled with these issues, as they can tell their story and it is what you see on screen. While R1 and Solo don't have the depth of the Saga films, maybe that is their biggest strength as they can tell their story from point A to point B, and not worry about point C, point D, etc. I know the standalones aren't for everyone (hence why they don't do as well at the Box Office as the Saga films), but I enjoy R1 and Solo for what they are, and it seems like the PT and ST have frustrated many fans in one way or another because they get stuck in these possible twist plot points that will make you see the movies differently. It worked in 1980 as 'I am your father' did that, but it seems like that twist is haunting the Saga movies and holding them back cause they're always trying to duplicate it.
I guess my point is that the Standalones don't get saddled with these issues, as they can tell their story and it is what you see on screen. While R1 and Solo don't have the depth of the Saga films, maybe that is their biggest strength as they can tell their story from point A to point B, and not worry about point C, point D, etc. I know the standalones aren't for everyone (hence why they don't do as well at the Box Office as the Saga films), but I enjoy R1 and Solo for what they are, and it seems like the PT and ST have frustrated many fans in one way or another because they get stuck in these possible twist plot points that will make you see the movies differently. It worked in 1980 as 'I am your father' did that, but it seems like that twist is haunting the Saga movies and holding them back cause they're always trying to duplicate it.
#3777
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
can we talk about the fact that Anakin is still the villain of the sequel movies? he's still being a galactic cockface. If he was redeemed as the ending of RoTJ implied, then why not show up as a force ghost to Kylo as soon as he started veering off towards the dark side and have a shimmery sit down with his grandson showing him the error of his ways. "Don't emulate me. I was a dick."
#3778
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
can we talk about the fact that Anakin is still the villain of the sequel movies? he's still being a galactic cockface. If he was redeemed as the ending of RoTJ implied, then why not show up as a force ghost to Kylo as soon as he started veering off towards the dark side and have a shimmery sit down with his grandson showing him the error of his ways. "Don't emulate me. I was a dick."
#3779
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
can we talk about the fact that Anakin is still the villain of the sequel movies? he's still being a galactic cockface. If he was redeemed as the ending of RoTJ implied, then why not show up as a force ghost to Kylo as soon as he started veering off towards the dark side and have a shimmery sit down with his grandson showing him the error of his ways. "Don't emulate me. I was a dick."
#3780
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
By JJ not declaring who Rey's lineage is in TFA, he screwed the pooch... He tried to leave us on some cliff-hanger hell but in reality, the internet buzzed with EVERY SINGLE possible solution for who she could be -- so much so that no answer is good (even being a nobody; which I don't buy). Being a nobody is still worse than just making her Obi-Wan's grand daughter, IMO.
Maybe some particular unknowing individuals just happen to be chosen by the Force.
As for the film overall, I've had a chance of heart.
I let my expectations of the film sour my initial viewing. Prior to the movie I had read online rumors about the Jedi killers being revealed and attacking Luke at his hideout, so when I didn't get any of that I was disappointed.
Watching it again, more objectively, it's a really fun film.
-While I still don't like Rey automatically being a great pilot, and great in an aerial dog fight, and suddenly displaying Jedi mind tricks, and suddenly downloading Force lightsabers skills the obligatory lightsaber duel for TFA, I thought her abilities in TLJ were presented well within the context of the story. Luke was fearful of Ben's power, and now he's fearful of this Rey character's power. It's implied by Snoke that Rey is Kylo's opposite, so it probably has more to do with the Force than training.
-I didn't like the character of Holdo, but you're not supposed to. Poe even voices what the audience is thinking, "That's Holdo? Not what I expected."You're supposed to think she's a know-it-all, and that Poe has the right course of action. It's another case of misdirection. If she's a tough, gritty looking Admiral, then you're more inclined to believe that Poe's wrong, which ruins the surprise.
-The Canto Bight part isn't bad at all. Again, it's more misdirection that sets up Holdo's surprise sacrifice while doing some more world building.
-The rich are the bad guys too in TLJ, right? Biased millennial political opinions, right? DJ says later that the rich are funding both the New Order AND the Resistance. Some light moral ambiguity there, that shows that things aren't just black and white, and it also ties nicely into Rey and Kylo's conversation.
-Benicio del Toro's character was better than ANY character in the PT, and I liked that he gave Rose back her medallion after revealing it was just to get through the locked doors.
-I feel bad that character of Rose got so much hate. I thought her sacrifice at the end could have been translated better, but she was very likable addition to Star Wars.
-Luke's farewell was perfect.
-The kid with the broom was a good scene. But they didn't need to have him raise the broom like a lightsaber, after we already get the close-up of his hand gripping the broom looking like a lightsaber handle with Rose's resistance ring on his finger. Yeah, we got it, he's a future Jedi.
#3781
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
That never crossed my mind but yeah, that makes sense.
Having Anakin as a Force ghost show up to try and persuade Kylo away from the Dark Side seems like it would make for a good scene at some point. It would also tie the three trilogies together more, which like them or not we have what we have. I hope something along those lines happen in Episode IX.
And I think it makes the legend of Darth Vader and his evil deeds seem greater if you DON'T show him in the ST. His memory as a Sith lord is still menacing.
I like to ignore parts of ROTJ, so I imagine that Anakin Skywalker never became a Force ghost, and is in Force purgatory for an indefinite amount of time. I mean, he was space Hitler.
#3782
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
Except we already saw Anakin as a Force Ghost in the Original Trilogy. As far as who plays him, I don’t see why it wouldn’t be Hayden. Yeah, I realize he got a lot of hate but it would be stupid to recast him. Plus Disney isn’t beyond acknowledging the prequels and already has done so a couple times (Jimmy Smits in Rogue One and Maul in Solo). I don’t necessarily love all aspects of the prequels, but I’ve come to accept that they are what they are and are still part of the franchise.
#3783
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
I don't mean to sound dramatic and this is obviously just for those that didn't like TLJ. But has anyone else's enthusiasm for Star Wars really tapered off after TLJ? Before TLJ I was so gung ho on Star Wars anything. Went to Celebration Orlando mainly to see the trailer for TLJ and my Star Wars fandom reached peak fervor from then until the release of the movie. Now my enthusiasm has decreased a lot. I did see Solo but wasn't in a rush to see it. Not in any kind of anticipation for eps IX. Not interested in going to Celebration Chicago. Just wondering if anyone else felt the same?
#3784
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
Not completely. I’m not that enthused about Episode IX, but I am curious about The Mandalorian and the Cassian Andor series as well as any potential anthology films.
#3785
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
I don't mean to sound dramatic and this is obviously just for those that didn't like TLJ. But has anyone else's enthusiasm for Star Wars really tapered off after TLJ? Before TLJ I was so gung ho on Star Wars anything. Went to Celebration Orlando mainly to see the trailer for TLJ and my Star Wars fandom reached peak fervor from then until the release of the movie. Now my enthusiasm has decreased a lot. I did see Solo but wasn't in a rush to see it. Not in any kind of anticipation for eps IX. Not interested in going to Celebration Chicago. Just wondering if anyone else felt the same?
#3786
DVD Talk Reviewer Emeritus
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
Completely. And more than just a "straw that broke the camel's back," but a solid body slam that sorta woke me up. TFA, for all its faults, had a glimmer of the old magic, but TLJ smothered it all. No fixing it now. I'm totally done with further stories, and finally obtained a copy of the original trilogy without the SE changes. Now I'm good. On to better things.
#3787
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
I think from Disney’s stance it was very short-sighted to make a film that did as many controversial things so early on like they did with The Last Jedi. They had just lured back into the fold a group of fans who weren’t satisfied with the prequels, and then they turn around and divide the fanbase more than it ever has been. Just stupidity. They played fast and loose too early in my opinion.
#3788
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
I think from Disney’s stance it was very short-sighted to make a film that did as many controversial things so early on like they did with The Last Jedi. They had just lured back into the fold a group of fans who weren’t satisfied with the prequels, and then they turn around and divide the fanbase more than it ever has been. Just stupidity. They played fast and loose too early in my opinion.
And I don't know where you get this "lured back" argument. Lured back from where? I didn't like the prequels but my passion for Star Wars never waned. You didn't HAVE to eat everything they served from 2005-2015. Star Wars fans were always there. And I'm sure all the people who hated Last Jedi are gonna lineup for IX regardless what they say online.
How else are they gonna hate on it?
#3789
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
When I said lured I meant that it seemed obvious Disney knew many fans were turned off by the Prequel Trilogy and it seemed like The Force Awakens was done in a way where it was safe yes, but also respectful and felt more in life with what many thought the prequels lacked.
I think they just went too far too fast with pulling out the rug on things we expected. I’d have preferred a safer route with the trilogy that was wrapping things up for the original cast. The thing is Disney will be making Star Wars films from now until who knows when. They could have taken risks later. Harrison Ford and Mark Hamill are older men who won’t be here forever and Carrie Fisher is dead. I think subverting expectations, especially in my case with Luke was a shitty move. It almost seems anti-fan to have done something like that, and if these films weren’t made for the fans then who are they for?
I think they just went too far too fast with pulling out the rug on things we expected. I’d have preferred a safer route with the trilogy that was wrapping things up for the original cast. The thing is Disney will be making Star Wars films from now until who knows when. They could have taken risks later. Harrison Ford and Mark Hamill are older men who won’t be here forever and Carrie Fisher is dead. I think subverting expectations, especially in my case with Luke was a shitty move. It almost seems anti-fan to have done something like that, and if these films weren’t made for the fans then who are they for?
#3790
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
OT (Domestic)
1. ANH 307 million (1977 dollars)
2. ROTJ 252 million (1983 dollars)
3. ESB 209 million (1980 dollars)
PT (Domestic)
1. TPM 431 million (1999 dollars)
2. ROTS 380 million (2005 dollars)
3. AOTC 310 million (2002 dollars)
ST (Domestic)
1. TFA 936 million
2. TLJ 620 million
3. Episode 9: 400-500 million?
Standalones
1. R1 532 million
2. Solo 213 million
#3791
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
Which is why we probably won't see a Force ghost of Anakin in the next film.
I think it would be weird to see all the other Force ghosts as old men, but for some reason Force ghost Anakin appears as a young man.
Plus Disney isn’t beyond acknowledging the prequels and already has done so a couple times (Jimmy Smits in Rogue One and Maul in Solo). I don’t necessarily love all aspects of the prequels, but I’ve come to accept that they are what they are and are still part of the franchise.
Maul is like the one fan favorite from the entire PT, so I can see why they brought him back.
Other than that, it seems like Disney wants to limit incorporating the PT into their new series.
I thought that TLJ was better in a lot of ways than TFA.
It actually felt like a progression of the Star Wars universe, unlike TFA or the prequels.
I love that movie, but I now agree with the other posters who compare it to TLJ.
It's obvious in the film that the producers were making up as they go along.
ANH clearly was intended to have Anakin be a Jedi that was killed by Obi-wan's pupil, Darth Vader. At the end of the film, Luke destroys the Death Star, the Empire is defeated, and the galaxy is saved!
In ESB, well no, none of that mattered apparently, the Empire is still in charge, rebels once again on the run, because sequel money!
Out of nowhere Darth Vader is revealed to be Luke's father, contradicting the first film, and ruining Obi-Wan by making him a manipulative liar.
The producers were surprised that Star Wars became such a big hit, so they had to come up with new story, and did so by just making up a bunch of shit. Vader is now Luke's father. Oh...and there is "another." What happened to Obi-Wan and Luke being the last of the Jedi? Oh, and the great Jedi Master Luke seeks out is a muppet.
I think a lot of ESB could be seen as controversial for the time.
They had just lured back into the fold a group of fans who weren’t satisfied with the prequels, and then they turn around and divide the fanbase more than it ever has been. Just stupidity. They played fast and loose too early in my opinion.
But at the same time too, they can't write ideal fan-fiction either. They have to surprise not just fans, but casual movie goers as well.
He was a mix of ESB Luke and ROTJ Luke.
And at the end, Luke does return to help the Resistance, in a creative way.
and if these films weren’t made for the fans then who are they for?
Were all people who saw the first LOTR and Harry Potter movies familiar with the books?
#3792
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
Except it wasn't. ESB was pretty much adored across the board by fans at the time. I was there.
Fanboys alone will NEVER make a blockbuster. The unloaded rifles always fire the loudest.
Harry Potter was a pop culture phenomenon for a handful of years before the first movie, so it came about just at the right time. Plus the then target audience of schoolchildren, fantasy-loving geeks, and adults who had familiarity (and enjoyment) with the stories through child-osmosis meant a four-quadrant smash. Plus the curious looking for a fun movie to watch.
LOTR was fairly legendary. Even those who didn't know LOTR knew of LOTR. Remember that it didn't open that big ($47 million in 2001 dollars) but, due to the quality of the film, had serious legs throughout the winter of 2001/2 (finishing at $315 million domestic). Comparatively, Potter opened at nearly twice that much ($90 million) and finished at just about the same ($317 million). Either way, I don't think you can chalk up either performance to "fanboys" alone.
If it were only die-hard Star Wars fans who saw the movies, would they still be blockbusters? I assume that it's general audiences, fans and non-fans who make these films so popular.
Were all people who saw the first LOTR and Harry Potter movies familiar with the books?
LOTR was fairly legendary. Even those who didn't know LOTR knew of LOTR. Remember that it didn't open that big ($47 million in 2001 dollars) but, due to the quality of the film, had serious legs throughout the winter of 2001/2 (finishing at $315 million domestic). Comparatively, Potter opened at nearly twice that much ($90 million) and finished at just about the same ($317 million). Either way, I don't think you can chalk up either performance to "fanboys" alone.
#3793
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
Of course it isn’t just fanboys who see the films and you don’t cater to solely that audience, but at the same time fanboys are the ones who help keep it alive for the next generation. You could have had it both ways with still introducing new characters alongside the legacy characters and The Force Awakens blended the two very well.
Luke’s arc is going to bother me forever and will always taint my feelings on the Sequel Trilogy. I don’t care about any explanations people give or how it’s justified. That’s not what I wanted in the least and I definitely am not alone in that. I don’t think that’s selfish as I don’t think most expected what we got, and just because it was unexpected doesn’t make it good or more interesting.
Like I said before I think risks could have been taken further down the line after you gave satisfying closure to the original characters. If the sequels weren’t intending on doing that I’d have rather had the original characters left out all together.
Luke’s arc is going to bother me forever and will always taint my feelings on the Sequel Trilogy. I don’t care about any explanations people give or how it’s justified. That’s not what I wanted in the least and I definitely am not alone in that. I don’t think that’s selfish as I don’t think most expected what we got, and just because it was unexpected doesn’t make it good or more interesting.
Like I said before I think risks could have been taken further down the line after you gave satisfying closure to the original characters. If the sequels weren’t intending on doing that I’d have rather had the original characters left out all together.
#3794
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
If only there was the internet back when Empire Strikes Back came out.
I love that movie, but I now agree with the other posters who compare it to TLJ.
It's obvious in the film that the producers were making up as they go along.
ANH clearly was intended to have Anakin be a Jedi that was killed by Obi-wan's pupil, Darth Vader. At the end of the film, Luke destroys the Death Star, the Empire is defeated, and the galaxy is saved!
In ESB, well no, none of that mattered apparently, the Empire is still in charge, rebels once again on the run, because sequel money!
Out of nowhere Darth Vader is revealed to be Luke's father, contradicting the first film, and ruining Obi-Wan by making him a manipulative liar.
The producers were surprised that Star Wars became such a big hit, so they had to come up with new story, and did so by just making up a bunch of shit. Vader is now Luke's father. Oh...and there is "another." What happened to Obi-Wan and Luke being the last of the Jedi? Oh, and the great Jedi Master Luke seeks out is a muppet.
I think a lot of ESB could be seen as controversial for the time.
So I guess what I'm saying is the eventual diehards loved ESB, and the general audience really didn't as they weren't in love with the darker tone and all of the new revelations. The OPPOSITE happened with TLJ, where the fans that rejected it tended to be the diehards (fans who loved Luke), and the general audience (specifically reviewers) tended to like it cause they weren't as invested in Luke's story.
#3795
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
And yet, none of the letters or comments from back then were that critical.
One just said that he suspects that Vader is lying to Luke about being his father, and another is a fan criticizing Leia for going with "hot lips" Han, and not the guy who actually rescued her, Luke.
The rest of the articles cite a few major film critics who gave vague criticisms of the movie, but nothing too harsh.
So I guess the claim that ESB was hated at the time isn't true.
Luke’s arc is going to bother me forever and will always taint my feelings on the Sequel Trilogy. I don’t care about any explanations people give or how it’s justified. That’s not what I wanted in the least and I definitely am not alone in that. I don’t think that’s selfish as I don’t think most expected what we got, and just because it was unexpected doesn’t make it good or more interesting.
I see where you're coming from, and when you think about it, Luke's reasoning seems pretty stupid. He mocks Rey's plan insinuating that one lone guy with a "laser sword" can't make a difference against an entire empire...yet he did just that in the original trilogy.
The whole film was about subverting expectations while somehow still playing it safe.
Luke acts very un-Jedi like by refusing to help and giving up on the Jedi ways, unlike Obi-Wan who's like, "Hey Luke, you and I have to save the Princess!" And yet, he acts just like Obi-Wan by confronting Darth Ren at the end, and buying the Resistance more time.
I saw ESB in 1980, and it was controversial in a different way. You have to understand that in 1977, SW(ANH) was beloved by everyone so there was no diehard fans yet. It was no different then The Wizard of Oz as the movie just resonated with all types of people (I loved it, my older brother loved it, my mom loved it, as we never agreed on any movies). So when ESB comes out in 1980, THAT is the movie that made diehard fans like me as we wanted more, more, more SW. I still remember reading about Lucas 9 movie plan in 1983 right before ROTJ came out, and it blew me away.
#3796
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
I found some articles comparing ESB to TLJ saying that the former was hated too. They quoted fan letters in 1980 from Starlog magazine.
And yet, none of the letters or comments from back then were that critical.
One just said that he suspects that Vader is lying to Luke about being his father, and another is a fan criticizing Leia for going with "hot lips" Han, and not the guy who actually rescued her, Luke.
The rest of the articles cite a few major film critics who gave vague criticisms of the movie, but nothing too harsh.
So I guess the claim that ESB was hated at the time isn't true.
And yet, none of the letters or comments from back then were that critical.
One just said that he suspects that Vader is lying to Luke about being his father, and another is a fan criticizing Leia for going with "hot lips" Han, and not the guy who actually rescued her, Luke.
The rest of the articles cite a few major film critics who gave vague criticisms of the movie, but nothing too harsh.
So I guess the claim that ESB was hated at the time isn't true.
#3797
Political Exile
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
The main disappointment with Empire back when I saw it opening night was the cliff hanger ending. Return of the Jedi was more disappointing to me with the lazy acting and the teddy bear characters, definitely more kid friendly than the first two movies.
I still think Ep 9 will do well though.
I still think Ep 9 will do well though.
#3798
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
So I guess what I'm saying is the eventual diehards loved ESB, and the general audience really didn't as they weren't in love with the darker tone and all of the new revelations. The OPPOSITE happened with TLJ, where the fans that rejected it tended to be the diehards (fans who loved Luke), and the general audience (specifically reviewers) tended to like it cause they weren't as invested in Luke's story.
#3799
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
Yeah, that makes sense. Not too much time had passed between ANH and ESB, so you just accept the continued story as is. Whereas it's been like what 30+ years since ROTJ? Since then fans have had so much time to create their own mythologies in their heads that the expectations are through the roof.
While I get your point, I disagree with this presumptive analysis. In my estimation, opinions on TLJ have been divided among die hard fans. There's a subset of die hard fans that love Luke and found TLJ's treatment of him to be jarringly inconsistent with their conception of the character and there's another subset of die hard fans that love Luke and found TLJ's treatment of him to be in very much keeping with the character from the original trilogy and what was set up for him in TFA. I will perpetually reject the notion that anyone who liked the handling of Luke in TLJ couldn't possibly be a die hard fan that is truly invested in the character's story.
#3800
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (R. Johnson, 2017) — The Spoiler Filled Reviews Thread
It's the same tired canard that gets trotted out from time to time. Similar to "The original Star Wars trilogy got terrible reviews too!" Umm, no it didn't. Even Jedi got positive (if comparatively lesser) reviews upon initial release. Star Wars was even nominated for Best Picture in 1977.