coli

After reading through the discussions here (which i'm really enjoying), I've really come to the conclusion why I prefer the Standalones over the Saga movies these days. I think the Saga movies get bogged down by these open ended plot points that force (no pun intended) to tie everything together. Whether you agree with Rey Nobody or not, that plot point has essentially taken over the narrative as there is still many theories going around that she may have some lineage to a Jedi Master in Episode 9. A great/developed character arc for Rey would be much more interesting than who her parents are? But once JJ left her last name out, then the speculation began. The same with Snoke in that they couldn't just create a great villain, but now the whole narrative is about whether he is Darth Plaguis or created by The Emperor, etc. Now of course many fans/internet are guilty of playing up all of these possibilities, but when they leave many of these things open-ended, it just creates more speculation.

I guess my point is that the Standalones don't get saddled with these issues, as they can tell their story and it is what you see on screen. While R1 and Solo don't have the depth of the Saga films, maybe that is their biggest strength as they can tell their story from point A to point B, and not worry about point C, point D, etc. I know the standalones aren't for everyone (hence why they don't do as well at the Box Office as the Saga films), but I enjoy R1 and Solo for what they are, and it seems like the PT and ST have frustrated many fans in one way or another because they get stuck in these possible twist plot points that will make you see the movies differently. It worked in 1980 as 'I am your father' did that, but it seems like that twist is haunting the Saga movies and holding them back cause they're always trying to duplicate it.

TGM

can we talk about the fact that Anakin is still the villain of the sequel movies? he's still being a galactic cockface. If he was redeemed as the ending of RoTJ implied, then why not show up as a force ghost to Kylo as soon as he started veering off towards the dark side and have a shimmery sit down with his grandson showing him the error of his ways. "Don't emulate me. I was a dick."

coli

I think this goes to my point about constantly trying to tie the movies. There is no way Disney is bringing back Hayden as a Force Ghost simply because they don't want any PT backlash from the fans. Heck, they pretty much went out of their way during the leadup to TFA and distancing themselves from the PT, especially the constant talk of real worlds, and less CGI. They even remade ANH just to show fans that this was going to be more like the OT then the PT. So they are trying to tie these movies together (as JJ stated) yet they don't want to bring up certain PT things in fear of another backlash. They could get away with bringing back Ewan McGregor or Ian McDiarmid, but I don't believe they are going to touch Hayden to return. IMO.

Mike86

brayzie

For me, it was a good use of misdirection, as was everything else.

Prior to the prequels, why was Anakin so strong with the Force when Obi-wan first met him?
Maybe some particular unknowing individuals just happen to be chosen by the Force.

As for the film overall, I've had a chance of heart.
I let my expectations of the film sour my initial viewing. Prior to the movie I had read online rumors about the Jedi killers being revealed and attacking Luke at his hideout, so when I didn't get any of that I was disappointed.

Watching it again, more objectively, it's a really fun film.

-While I still don't like Rey automatically being a great pilot, and great in an aerial dog fight, and suddenly displaying Jedi mind tricks, and suddenly downloading Force lightsabers skills the obligatory lightsaber duel for TFA, I thought her abilities in TLJ were presented well within the context of the story. Luke was fearful of Ben's power, and now he's fearful of this Rey character's power. It's implied by Snoke that Rey is Kylo's opposite, so it probably has more to do with the Force than training.

-I didn't like the character of Holdo, but you're not supposed to. Poe even voices what the audience is thinking, "That's Holdo? Not what I expected."You're supposed to think she's a know-it-all, and that Poe has the right course of action. It's another case of misdirection. If she's a tough, gritty looking Admiral, then you're more inclined to believe that Poe's wrong, which ruins the surprise.

-The Canto Bight part isn't bad at all. Again, it's more misdirection that sets up Holdo's surprise sacrifice while doing some more world building.

-The rich are the bad guys too in TLJ, right? Biased millennial political opinions, right? DJ says later that the rich are funding both the New Order AND the Resistance. Some light moral ambiguity there, that shows that things aren't just black and white, and it also ties nicely into Rey and Kylo's conversation.

-Benicio del Toro's character was better than ANY character in the PT, and I liked that he gave Rose back her medallion after revealing it was just to get through the locked doors.

-I feel bad that character of Rose got so much hate. I thought her sacrifice at the end could have been translated better, but she was very likable addition to Star Wars.

-Luke's farewell was perfect.

-The kid with the broom was a good scene. But they didn't need to have him raise the broom like a lightsaber, after we already get the close-up of his hand gripping the broom looking like a lightsaber handle with Rose's resistance ring on his finger. Yeah, we got it, he's a future Jedi.

brayzie

Problem is, who do you get to play redeemed Anakin? Disney doesn't want any PT reminders in the ST, and neither do I. And Bernard Shaw is dead.

And I think it makes the legend of Darth Vader and his evil deeds seem greater if you DON'T show him in the ST. His memory as a Sith lord is still menacing.
I like to ignore parts of ROTJ, so I imagine that Anakin Skywalker never became a Force ghost, and is in Force purgatory for an indefinite amount of time. I mean, he was space Hitler.

Mike86

tanman

I don't mean to sound dramatic and this is obviously just for those that didn't like TLJ. But has anyone else's enthusiasm for Star Wars really tapered off after TLJ? Before TLJ I was so gung ho on Star Wars anything. Went to Celebration Orlando mainly to see the trailer for TLJ and my Star Wars fandom reached peak fervor from then until the release of the movie. Now my enthusiasm has decreased a lot. I did see Solo but wasn't in a rush to see it. Not in any kind of anticipation for eps IX. Not interested in going to Celebration Chicago. Just wondering if anyone else felt the same?

Mike86

Not completely. I’m not that enthused about Episode IX, but I am curious about The Mandalorian and the Cassian Andor series as well as any potential anthology films.

mcnabb

I think this was bound to happen with the franchise for many fans, and kind of why Lucas only made a film every 3 years. Yes, the PT were crap, but that 3 year wait and anticipation still made each movie an event. Let's be honest guys, this is all about the theme parks for Disney and just keeping the movies a part of pop culture. I was down at Disneyworld last month and they were building the Star Wars Theme Park (along with the Star Wars rides they have in Hollywood Studios) and that is their focus. They could really care less about diehards like us, as they just want the movies to keep appealing to the masses so the franchise stays relevant and people buy the toys, visit the theme parks, etc. Trust me, if anyone has been to Disneyworld or Disneyland, they will know what I'm talking about. The Star Tours was an hour wait as people were lining up for that ride, and every 1/2 hour they had a big parade of Stormtroopers, The First Order, etc, and it was standing room only. It's ALL about the masses and keeping kids interested in the movies, as they could really care less about what we all think of the movies. They don't need anyone to love the movies like we did as kid, they just need them to like them as that is enough.

Jason Bovberg

Completely. And more than just a "straw that broke the camel's back," but a solid body slam that sorta woke me up. TFA, for all its faults, had a glimmer of the old magic, but TLJ smothered it all. No fixing it now. I'm totally done with further stories, and finally obtained a copy of the original trilogy without the SE changes. Now I'm good. On to better things.

Mike86

I think from Disney’s stance it was very short-sighted to make a film that did as many controversial things so early on like they did with The Last Jedi. They had just lured back into the fold a group of fans who weren’t satisfied with the prequels, and then they turn around and divide the fanbase more than it ever has been. Just stupidity. They played fast and loose too early in my opinion.

Kal-El

Eh. One, if the The Big Criticism of Force Awakens was that it was too similar to A New Hope. Then Last Jedi comes along and it's "too different/divisive/whatever". Where do you draw the line? Who gets to draw the line?

And I don't know where you get this "lured back" argument. Lured back from where? I didn't like the prequels but my passion for Star Wars never waned. You didn't HAVE to eat everything they served from 2005-2015. Star Wars fans were always there. And I'm sure all the people who hated Last Jedi are gonna lineup for IX regardless what they say online.

How else are they gonna hate on it?

Mike86

When I said lured I meant that it seemed obvious Disney knew many fans were turned off by the Prequel Trilogy and it seemed like The Force Awakens was done in a way where it was safe yes, but also respectful and felt more in life with what many thought the prequels lacked.

I think they just went too far too fast with pulling out the rug on things we expected. I’d have preferred a safer route with the trilogy that was wrapping things up for the original cast. The thing is Disney will be making Star Wars films from now until who knows when. They could have taken risks later. Harrison Ford and Mark Hamill are older men who won’t be here forever and Carrie Fisher is dead. I think subverting expectations, especially in my case with Luke was a shitty move. It almost seems anti-fan to have done something like that, and if these films weren’t made for the fans then who are they for?

mcnabb

I used to agree with this statement until Solo bombed, but SW fans are not lapdogs anymore. Now I don't think Episode 9 will bomb like Solo, simply because the Saga movies always appeal to a broader audience. But I do think there will be people who end up not seeing it, or not seeing it multiple times like TFA and TLJ. I won't say the word boycott cause that is a strong word, but many of my friends are just 'indifferent' towards the franchise anymore. No doubt some of them will see Episode 9, but I do think some of them won't as they did not bother with Solo (These are the same people that saw TFA 3-4 times as that is what beefs up the box office). Let me say I was in shock when these lifelong SW fans just dismissed Solo even after I saw it and said I liked it. That's why my prediction is Episode 9 will gross less then TLJ, but more then Solo. The problem for Disney is the 3rd movie in each Trilogy always outgrossed the previous one, and I think the ST will be the first SW Trilogy that has a downward trend for each box office result.

OT (Domestic)
1. ANH 307 million (1977 dollars)
2. ROTJ 252 million (1983 dollars)
3. ESB 209 million (1980 dollars)

PT (Domestic)
1. TPM 431 million (1999 dollars)
2. ROTS 380 million (2005 dollars)
3. AOTC 310 million (2002 dollars)

ST (Domestic)
1. TFA 936 million
2. TLJ 620 million
3. Episode 9: 400-500 million?

Standalones
1. R1 532 million
2. Solo 213 million

brayzie

I haven't seen Rogue One.
Maul is like the one fan favorite from the entire PT, so I can see why they brought him back.
Other than that, it seems like Disney wants to limit incorporating the PT into their new series.


I disagree.
I thought that TLJ was better in a lot of ways than TFA.
It actually felt like a progression of the Star Wars universe, unlike TFA or the prequels.

If only there was the internet back when Empire Strikes Back came out.
I love that movie, but I now agree with the other posters who compare it to TLJ.
It's obvious in the film that the producers were making up as they go along.

ANH clearly was intended to have Anakin be a Jedi that was killed by Obi-wan's pupil, Darth Vader. At the end of the film, Luke destroys the Death Star, the Empire is defeated, and the galaxy is saved!

In ESB, well no, none of that mattered apparently, the Empire is still in charge, rebels once again on the run, because sequel money!
Out of nowhere Darth Vader is revealed to be Luke's father, contradicting the first film, and ruining Obi-Wan by making him a manipulative liar.

The producers were surprised that Star Wars became such a big hit, so they had to come up with new story, and did so by just making up a bunch of shit. Vader is now Luke's father. Oh...and there is "another." What happened to Obi-Wan and Luke being the last of the Jedi? Oh, and the great Jedi Master Luke seeks out is a muppet.

I think a lot of ESB could be seen as controversial for the time.

Yeah, it's clear that in the lead up to TFA Disney was trying to tell people, "hey, we're going back to Star Wars' roots! Practical effects and locations! Original cast!"
But at the same time too, they can't write ideal fan-fiction either. They have to surprise not just fans, but casual movie goers as well.

Maybe the people who criticized TFA for being too similar to ANH aren't the same people who are criticizing TLJ for being too different.

Within the context of the film, it was plausible that Luke would feel that way, and the dialogue and delivery by Mark Hamill sold it. "It's vanity."
He was a mix of ESB Luke and ROTJ Luke.
And at the end, Luke does return to help the Resistance, in a creative way.

If it were only die-hard Star Wars fans who saw the movies, would they still be blockbusters? I assume that it's general audiences, fans and non-fans who make these films so popular.
Were all people who saw the first LOTR and Harry Potter movies familiar with the books?

Hokeyboy

Except it wasn't. ESB was pretty much adored across the board by fans at the time. I was there.
Fanboys alone will NEVER make a blockbuster. The unloaded rifles always fire the loudest.
Harry Potter was a pop culture phenomenon for a handful of years before the first movie, so it came about just at the right time. Plus the then target audience of schoolchildren, fantasy-loving geeks, and adults who had familiarity (and enjoyment) with the stories through child-osmosis meant a four-quadrant smash. Plus the curious looking for a fun movie to watch.

LOTR was fairly legendary. Even those who didn't know LOTR knew of LOTR. Remember that it didn't open that big ($47 million in 2001 dollars) but, due to the quality of the film, had serious legs throughout the winter of 2001/2 (finishing at $315 million domestic). Comparatively, Potter opened at nearly twice that much ($90 million) and finished at just about the same ($317 million). Either way, I don't think you can chalk up either performance to "fanboys" alone.

Mike86

Of course it isn’t just fanboys who see the films and you don’t cater to solely that audience, but at the same time fanboys are the ones who help keep it alive for the next generation. You could have had it both ways with still introducing new characters alongside the legacy characters and The Force Awakens blended the two very well.

Luke’s arc is going to bother me forever and will always taint my feelings on the Sequel Trilogy. I don’t care about any explanations people give or how it’s justified. That’s not what I wanted in the least and I definitely am not alone in that. I don’t think that’s selfish as I don’t think most expected what we got, and just because it was unexpected doesn’t make it good or more interesting.

Like I said before I think risks could have been taken further down the line after you gave satisfying closure to the original characters. If the sequels weren’t intending on doing that I’d have rather had the original characters left out all together.

coli

I saw ESB in 1980, and it was controversial in a different way. You have to understand that in 1977, SW(ANH) was beloved by everyone so there was no diehard fans yet. It was no different then The Wizard of Oz as the movie just resonated with all types of people (I loved it, my older brother loved it, my mom loved it, as we never agreed on any movies). So when ESB comes out in 1980, THAT is the movie that made diehard fans like me as we wanted more, more, more SW. I still remember reading about Lucas 9 movie plan in 1983 right before ROTJ came out, and it blew me away. When you're 11 years old, and there are rumored to be 6 more SW movies on the horizon, I couldn't wait! Then my older brother (who also loved the Original) was never keen on more SW movies, just like he wasn't keen on a Rocky sequel (He's a more general moviegoer and doesn't obsess like I do). He didn't like ESB, nor even cares about it today (or any SW movie after that) as the Original SW is his canon and thinks the story is fine. The only SW movie he saw after that was ROTJ cause he had a license and my mom made him drive me to theater.

So I guess what I'm saying is the eventual diehards loved ESB, and the general audience really didn't as they weren't in love with the darker tone and all of the new revelations. The OPPOSITE happened with TLJ, where the fans that rejected it tended to be the diehards (fans who loved Luke), and the general audience (specifically reviewers) tended to like it cause they weren't as invested in Luke's story.

brayzie

I found some articles comparing ESB to TLJ saying that the former was hated too. They quoted fan letters in 1980 from Starlog magazine.
And yet, none of the letters or comments from back then were that critical.
One just said that he suspects that Vader is lying to Luke about being his father, and another is a fan criticizing Leia for going with "hot lips" Han, and not the guy who actually rescued her, Luke.
The rest of the articles cite a few major film critics who gave vague criticisms of the movie, but nothing too harsh.
So I guess the claim that ESB was hated at the time isn't true.



I don't think it's selfish either.
I see where you're coming from, and when you think about it, Luke's reasoning seems pretty stupid. He mocks Rey's plan insinuating that one lone guy with a "laser sword" can't make a difference against an entire empire...yet he did just that in the original trilogy.

The whole film was about subverting expectations while somehow still playing it safe.
Luke acts very un-Jedi like by refusing to help and giving up on the Jedi ways, unlike Obi-Wan who's like, "Hey Luke, you and I have to save the Princess!" And yet, he acts just like Obi-Wan by confronting Darth Ren at the end, and buying the Resistance more time.

Yeah, that makes sense. Not too much time had passed between ANH and ESB, so you just accept the continued story as is. Whereas it's been like what 30+ years since ROTJ? Since then fans have had so much time to create their own mythologies in their heads that the expectations are through the roof.

Hokeyboy

It's the same tired canard that gets trotted out from time to time. Similar to "The original Star Wars trilogy got terrible reviews too!" Umm, no it didn't. Even Jedi got positive (if comparatively lesser) reviews upon initial release. Star Wars was even nominated for Best Picture in 1977.

PerryD

The main disappointment with Empire back when I saw it opening night was the cliff hanger ending. Return of the Jedi was more disappointing to me with the lazy acting and the teddy bear characters, definitely more kid friendly than the first two movies.

I still think Ep 9 will do well though.

kefrank

While I get your point, I disagree with this presumptive analysis. In my estimation, opinions on TLJ have been divided among die hard fans. There's a subset of die hard fans that love Luke and found TLJ's treatment of him to be jarringly inconsistent with their conception of the character and there's another subset of die hard fans that love Luke and found TLJ's treatment of him to be in very much keeping with the character from the original trilogy and what was set up for him in TFA. I will perpetually reject the notion that anyone who liked the handling of Luke in TLJ couldn't possibly be a die hard fan that is truly invested in the character's story.

coli

You have to remember in 1980 and even in 1983, those were uncharted waters for moviegoers so most people like me really didn't know where these movies were going. That was the charm of it because nobody was doing Trilogies back in 1980, nobody was doing cliffhanger endings, so your speculation was not effecting how the movies played out. That is why it is so hard to compare the OT to anything because it was ahead of it's time and it changed blockbuster movies forever. That is why I get annoyed when people say that the OT didn't have the competition that movies do today, but what they don't get is that the reason there was no competition was because it was so different and so groundbreaking. SW was sort of like The Beatles in that when they came to the US in 1964, nobody had ever seen anything like it as they were bigger then Elvis. My mom was 20 years old and my aunt was a teenager and they said the night they played on Ed Sullivan show is comparable to my generation seeing SW in 1977, it literally blew you away.

I should have been more specific, as I didn't mean all diehard fans hated it. I was just saying that the fans that do hate TLJ, tend to more on the diehard side who were offended by the way Luke was handled. The same way, the people that seemed to hate ESB in 1980 tended to be more general moviegoers like my brother who is just not a fan of sequels in general. Again, I wasn't saying all, I was just saying the ones that hated the movie.

Mike86