Jay G.

Well maybe hdnmickey can clarify for himself, but while I agree that the situation you describe is straightforward, the "other direction" situation hdnmickey was attempting to describe where TLJ supporters would have to "admit the others were correct in how much of TLJ was flawed..." doesn't make a lick of sense.

Jay G.

You mean like ESB was, which essentially follows a crew of 5 in a small ship for the bulk of the film, interspersed with scenes of one guy off training somewhere?

hdnmickey

Sadly I agree given I would also list the bulk of scenes on the casino planet, and the characters played by Der and Del Torro. In many I think it could play out like EP III. Which, despite being a far better movie than I and II, couldn't save the PT. And just like TLJ, I like a lot of AotC despite so much of it being so badly executed.

coli

The bulk of the film? The first 35-40 minutes are the huge Battle of Hoth, and the last 35-40 minutes of Cloud City where the 3 plot threads all come together to form the essential narrative of Vader wanting to turn Luke. The Millenium Falcon chase and the Dagobah scenes (which you are citing) are the middle 40 minutes of the movie and not even half the film.

DaveyJoe

Much of which is Luke getting lost on his TaunTaun and chilling upside down in a cave. The first act set on Hoth is not entirely a battle set piece.

coli

But there is a lot going on in the first 40 minutes of Hoth before the Battle of Hoth as it is really establishing each character and their motives/relationships.

-Vader is pretty much ignoring every General to goto Hoth as he senses Luke, yet none of them believe there are any lifeforms there. Of course now we know he is obsessed with his son, but you don't know that the first time you watch.

-The Han/Leia relationship is setup as they have feelings for each other. Han is leaving the Rebellion, and Leia doesn't want him to leave and hides the fact that the rebellion needs him (when SHE really doesn't want him to leave). Which later sets up a funny scene when Leia kisses Luke to make Han jealous (of course that scene is alittle to Game of Throne'ish now when they are revealed as siblings in ROTJ).

-One of the most dramatic parts of the movie is when they close the emergency doors after Han/Luke do not come back and Chewy howls while Leia is distressed.

-Everything is there in that first 40 minutes that sets up the 2 biggest scenes of the movie: Vader reveals himself to Luke, and Han kisses Leia and says, "I know."

OldBoy

I guess I’ll have to see again. Don’t remember at all. Oh god, I hope I don’t turn out to dislike second time around...

Jay G.

But the point is that those 40 minutes are still small in scope. Only the actual battle part is "epic," and it's for a brief fraction of the overall running time. Those early scenes are great though, which is the point. A movie can be small in scope and still be a good movie, can still be Star Wars.

Timber

The entire movie save that 10 minute Hoth battle is small in scope. We're confined to the Falcon, or Degobah, or Cloud City for the entire movie. There are no big set pieces, no space battles. The entire movie feels small which in theory was paid off in the next chapter. We loved those characters so we didn't mind the small personal nature of the story.

johnnysd

OK, I am going to say something controversial. I also know that Disney will never do this. But I think at this point, what I would do is this:

End Episode IX on an Empire Strikes Back note where evil essentially wins and the main character goes over to the dark side (in a much more believable way than the prequels)

Then I would use the seed that TLJ planted that the force is coming back in others, as the starting point for the rebirth of the Jedi order and a fight against evil where the true person that balances the force is revealed, and use that as the basis for the next trilogy.

Hate away. It could redeem TLJ in its own way

Dan

^ I'd be on board with that.

DaveyJoe

Which is all more intimate in scope. Your post implied that the first act was an epic battle.

Rob V

why not... if IX ends with "good guys win... f*&k yeah!", I'll barf.

tanman

Honestly I thought that's how they were going to end TLJ halfway though watching it. All this talk about how brave and bold TLJ is and the one big chance they could have taken by making Rey actually team up with Kylo and turn to the dark side would have made for a much more interesting movie. But instead they went the safe route.

Franchot

I could buy into that, but as you said Disney won't. Maybe if we were back in the 1970s when movies with downbeat endings thrived, but this is the curtain call for what's left of the original characters. Disney still needs to sell toys and tickets. Too many movie goers would be bummed out with what you're suggesting--I wouldn't, however.

TGM

...or the "balance of the Force" is really about power percentages... have a handful of super strong Force users against army's of rookies fumbling with the Force, or Force sensitive types. The overall power "balance" is the same, but it takes way more good guys working together to defeat the stronger "trained" Sith.

Michael Corvin

You should probably plan on skipping it then.

Abrams managed to create a strong female lead that resonated with fans in a way that Padme never did. There wasn't a chance in hell they'd turn her to the dark side for even a second, let alone on a cliffhanger.

Mike86

Then that whole aspect of the film was essentially pointless. The whole will she, won’t she thing the entire film. Then they team up for a scene only for her to go off on her own right afterwards. Rian Johnson wasn’t even willing to commit to an idea in his own film let alone what was set up in previous ones.

Draven

Wouldn't that apply to any movie where a character faces a choice and chooses the side of good?

So...pretty much any movie

Mike86

That was kind of a tease in the marketing though and throughout about the first two thirds of the film. It wasn’t just a minor subplot.

Plus the whole light and dark side aspect of Star Wars has always been a focal point of focus so it’s kind of different than your typical movie conflict in my opinion. Just that crazy Rian, subverting your expectations that he set up in his own film, because reasons.

Jay G.

It wasn't just a minor subplot in ROTJ either: the idea of Luke potentially joining the dark side was something carried over from ESB and resolved in ROTJ only near the end. But of all the criticisms leveled at ROTJ, I don't think "Luke didn't choose the dark side after all that buildup" is a common complaint.

Mike86

Whether or not she would have turned isn’t the complaint. Why even set that up for her character though? Rey and Kylo as far as we know aren’t linked by a relationship. Their first encounter he tries to kill her a couple different times and she sees him murder his own father who had been helping her along her journey. There’s really no good reason for her to believe there’s good in him. He doesn’t show her any reason prior to their team up in Snoke’s throne room that he’s just misunderstood and can be turned back. That whole arc was a big waste if you ask me.

Luke is a different story. He learns that Vader who’s one of the most evil men in the galaxy is his father. This happens in the midst of him discovering the Force and his place as a Jedi. There’s a good reason for him to be conflicted. Sure Vader is evil, but at the same time he’s his dad and he doesn’t want to believe he’s lost for good and feels compelled to try and turn him. That makes a lot more sense. We also see Luke struggle with this off and on after finding out after their Bespin battle all the way up to their showdown in the Emperor’s throne room on the Death Star II. It’s not like it was an easy choice for him to make and he ultimately wound up playing a part in his father’s demise.

One is told with a better sense of story and character motivation, whereas the other feels like another in a long line of curveballs Rian Johnson wanted to throw at us. If he would have at least made it where we didn’t know right away what her decision was and left it on a cliffhanger that would have been a lot more interesting. Not saying she had to turn full dark side, but they could have done more with it.

I’d have done this instead. Had Rey’s decision be a cliffhanger ending. We cut to Luke realizing what’s happening. He doesn’t want to lose another potential Jedi to the dark side and realizes it’s time to take action. Not as a fucking projection, but leaving Ach-To to face both Kylo and Rey if need be, but with the objective of redeeming Rey. Gives him something to do that would have been satisfying and worked with what this film set up and tells a fuller story. Instead everything that’s set up is kind of just like: none of this matters, we’ll just cut off every story arc we don’t like or want to continue and act like we’re clever because no one expected that.

Jay G.

Because Light vs Dark side is a central conflict of the Jedi throughout the series? Anakin succumbed to it, Luke didn't. Ben did. Whether Rey would be tempted by the dark side is just a logical question to address.

She's linked by the Force to him. She senses good in him through the Force. She sees a vision when she touches him that Kylo will turn against Snoke, if she goes to him. So she does. It turns out she misinterpreted that vision, but there was a good reason given for her going to him.

We see Rey tempted by the dark side. Luke is shocked how quickly Rey combs through the dark side, and she returns to it in attempt to find an answer of her parents/her place before she goes off to confront Kylo.

Wow, you'd make Luke's role bigger and more central, and demote Rey to someone that needs Luke to save her. How surprising.

I understand you wanted more from the original cast in these films, but there's a difference between a movie not delivering what you wanted and poor execution. TLJ went in a different direction than what you wanted, but it did it well.

Mike86

Right, but it was done with little to no intrigue. All the will she or won’t she was set up within this film and was answered instantly. There’s no conflict and no real reason for her to be tempted by him. They’re connected by the Force. Give me a break.

They’re basically connected for a bullshit reason though. It’s like there wasn’t anything really connecting them, but we needed that subplot about whether or not she’ll turn so throw in this hokey excuse. Even though we get our answer without any suspense within like a couple minutes of their one time teaming up.

I don’t view it as demoting her. I like her character but I don’t see why she’s to the point of being infallible basically. If anything it’s sort of like she’s overpowered in a lot of ways if you really think about it. Like in the first film she’s got no training but is strong with the Force right off the bat. Luke at least had Ben guiding him through the first film and even during the trench run he helps him to an extent.

This film she gets some training sure, and apparently she’s got enough willpower to resist the dark side after being strongly tempted even though other characters have had more faults and temptations. It sort of makes her less interesting in some ways because it’s like she’s just a super Jedi master with hardly any training.

I don’t think it did it well though. We obviously have different view points and don’t agree on Star Wars. I just think to have brought back the original cast they sort of wasted them. Especially Luke who I feel was the primary character people were excited to see back. I don’t see how it’s hard to view how he was used as disappointing for many.

kefrank

That right there is the link. Consider what happened to Rey in TFA. She never had family to speak of until on her grand adventure leaving Jakku she meets Han Solo and they form a bond. Though it happens quickly, Solo is the closest thing to a father figure she's ever had. She knows Kylo has his blood, she knows Solo believed there was good in him and wanted him to return to it, and she sees into Kylo's mind when he has her captive. There is plenty established in TFA to indicate she would believe or at least want to believe that there's good in Kylo.

I couldn't disagree more. That whole arc deftly explores the real conflict inside both of them and the paths on which it is taking each of them. Rey choosing not to join Kylo in that moment in the throne room doesn't devalue the development leading up to it - quite the opposite. It validates it and expands on it.

The parallel themes of paternalism are striking aren't they? Rey has no idea who her real parents are, but she gains a father figure in Solo for the first time, just as she's discovering the Force and her place in the galaxy.

Sure Kylo is evil, but Rey knows that Solo believed there was good in Kylo and wanted more than anything for him to return to that good. That makes plenty of sense. The one father figure in Rey's life died trying to turn Kylo. Rey doesn't want to give up on the faith Solo had in Kylo that easily.

For all this talk of Johnson throwing "curveballs" he seems much more to just be doing interesting variations on the same themes to me.