Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
#3476
DVD Talk Hero
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
#3477
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
Man, huge bummer if true about Goldblum. If Bill Murray get's me too'd, I don't think I could handle it.
#3478
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
Originally Posted by VinVega
mod note - Let's keep the Kobe rape stuff out of this thread. Make another thread if that's what you want to talk about. It just leads to too many hijacks of the thread
Originally Posted by Evan Rachel Wood
What has happened is tragic. I am heartbroken for Kobe’s family.
He was a sports hero. He was also a rapist.
And all of these truths can exist simultaneously.
— #EvanRachelWould (@evanrachelwood)
He was a sports hero. He was also a rapist.
And all of these truths can exist simultaneously.
— #EvanRachelWould (@evanrachelwood)
I have some different thoughts on the whole issue. Is this a sign that the #MeToo movement is kind of dying down? Is it because this controversy already came and went, prior to #MeToo? Or is it because Kobe is regarded as a basketball legend? If this was a random Hollywood producer or director who died would people in the media be tip toeing a well-publicized rape accusation? Or an unpopular politician for that batter? Vox seems to have approached news of George HW Bush's death differently than Kobe Bryant's:
VOX: 8 women say George H.W. Bush groped them. Their claims deserve to be remembered as we assess his legacy. The day after the senior Bush's death.
vs.
VOX: What Kobe Bryant’s death says about American memory
They actually compare the two in the second article, but it still seems like they are more delicate about it because they don't want backlash from the black community and marginalized People of Color in general when it comes to a popular and well-liked athlete.
On the other hand, Kobe wasn't convicted or rape, so how can the actress who made the tweet say he was a rapist? He was accused. Can we call Bill Clinton a rapist as well?
But then the Vox article says that Kobe later realized that the sex wasn't consensual. So...it's a fact that he did rape her? The Vox article claims the sex wasn't consensual, that Kobe himself "realized later" that it wasn't consensual, and reports the accuser as saying she told Kobe "no," repeatedly but that he forced himself on her anyways and put his hands on her neck. Yet, Vox never uses the word "rape," "raped," or "rapist" in the entire article. Only "sexual assault," which can cover anything from rape to unwanted touching.
Last edited by brayzie; 01-29-20 at 08:30 AM.
#3479
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
I don't follow basketball, so when I heard the news of Bryant's death, my first thought was, "Wasn't he the guy who raped that girl in a hotel room in Colorado? Or am I confusing him with someone else?" So I had to Google it to confirm it was indeed Bryant.
#3480
Banned
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Conducting miss-aisle drills and listening to their rock n roll
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re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
Vox was going light on George Bush. Here at DVDTalk a famously “self banned” member called him a war criminal, murderer, and more in the second post of the thread announcing his death.
#3481
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
I always compared the LA reaction to the Colorado incident to the end of Sphere. Everyone just kind of mutually agreed to forget it happened and suddenly it was like it didn't. James Franco doesn't get a nomination because of some vague allegations but Kobe wins an Oscar the same year. I don't know exactly what happened but reading details in the court records it sounds like she was down for sex but not the butt stuff Kobe wanted. That statement he issued does not make him look good. Not sure if that makes him a rapist in the classic sense but yeah it is troubling. People are not wrong to mention that part of his story. But time and place is important and a few hours after his death isn't the time.
#3483
DVD Talk Hero
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
McGregor's Legacy (R)
A big Scot is sitting in a bar, ranting as he downs his pints. He pounds his hand on the bar, says "You see this bar? I built this bar with me own two hands, a finer piece of work you'll never find, but do they call me MacGregor the bar-builder? No!!" and he downs his pint and buys another.He points out the window. "See that dock in the lake? I built that dock with me own hands, a finer piece of work you'll never find, but do they call me MacGregor the dock-builder? No!!" and downs his pint.
He next pointed out the chair and table in the corner, the fence outside, all sorts of similar projects, and says "I built that with me own two hands, a finer piece of work you'll never find, but do call me MacGregor the handyman? No!!"
He stares into his beer, whispers, "And you fuck one sheep."
I worked at a place where one department had hired a bunch of people who had been in prison. They were an honest, hard-working crew. But a new management team arrived and fired them all. How should we interact with someone who did criminal acts a decade or more ago, but never since?
#3484
DVD Talk Hero
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
I always compared the LA reaction to the Colorado incident to the end of Sphere. Everyone just kind of mutually agreed to forget it happened and suddenly it was like it didn't. James Franco doesn't get a nomination because of some vague allegations but Kobe wins an Oscar the same year. I don't know exactly what happened but reading details in the court records it sounds like she was down for sex but not the butt stuff Kobe wanted. That statement he issued does not make him look good. Not sure if that makes him a rapist in the classic sense but yeah it is troubling. People are not wrong to mention that part of his story. But time and place is important and a few hours after his death isn't the time.
I will also say that he seemed to do a 180 soon after that, probably right around the time he had daughters, and besides his stubbornness on the court you basically never heard a bad thing about how he acted in public. So I can also see why it would anger mourners that drive by posters would define him by that incident. It's a lot different with someone like Weinstein or Cosby or even Michael Jackson where there's just continual abuse.
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#3485
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
At what point does a man's entire life become tainted by a single act? Is redemption impossible?
I worked at a place where one department had hired a bunch of people who had been in prison. They were an honest, hard-working crew. But a new management team arrived and fired them all. How should we interact with someone who did criminal acts a decade or more ago, but never since?
I worked at a place where one department had hired a bunch of people who had been in prison. They were an honest, hard-working crew. But a new management team arrived and fired them all. How should we interact with someone who did criminal acts a decade or more ago, but never since?
But time and place is important and a few hours after his death isn't the time.
Last edited by funkyryno; 01-29-20 at 01:07 PM.
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#3486
Administrator
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
I don't know who among you live in Los Angeles, but here it's like a piece of the city died with Kobe. Regarding his charges and legacy, I found this comment on Jezebel to be incredibly thoughtful (might have to scroll once the entire page loads, but it's long and has a pink stripe on its left side): https://jezebel.com/1841240176
As well as these pieces from The Root: https://verysmartbrothas.theroot.com...yth-1841261894
https://www.theroot.com/kobe-bryant-...rep-1841238163
Obviously as an admin, I'm going to avoid involvement, but as a human being, I can say that is is possible to feel empathy for Kobe's accuser and feel that she was done an unjustice and feel loss for Kobe himself. While I was never the biggest Kobe fan before or after "Colorado", I do see what he means to people in this city and I see and feel their pain.
As well as these pieces from The Root: https://verysmartbrothas.theroot.com...yth-1841261894
https://www.theroot.com/kobe-bryant-...rep-1841238163
Obviously as an admin, I'm going to avoid involvement, but as a human being, I can say that is is possible to feel empathy for Kobe's accuser and feel that she was done an unjustice and feel loss for Kobe himself. While I was never the biggest Kobe fan before or after "Colorado", I do see what he means to people in this city and I see and feel their pain.
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#3488
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
#3489
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
At what point does a man's entire life become tainted by a single act? Is redemption impossible?
I worked at a place where one department had hired a bunch of people who had been in prison. They were an honest, hard-working crew. But a new management team arrived and fired them all. How should we interact with someone who did criminal acts a decade or more ago, but never since?
I worked at a place where one department had hired a bunch of people who had been in prison. They were an honest, hard-working crew. But a new management team arrived and fired them all. How should we interact with someone who did criminal acts a decade or more ago, but never since?
Yeah, I think it was more time and place... I don't think most people just sweep that trial under the rug but bringing it up right after the tragedy and with his daughter involved to boot.
I will also say that he seemed to do a 180 soon after that, probably right around the time he had daughters, and besides his stubbornness on the court you basically never heard a bad thing about how he acted in public. So I can also see why it would anger mourners that drive by posters would define him by that incident. It's a lot different with someone like Weinstein or Cosby or even Michael Jackson where there's just continual abuse.
I will also say that he seemed to do a 180 soon after that, probably right around the time he had daughters, and besides his stubbornness on the court you basically never heard a bad thing about how he acted in public. So I can also see why it would anger mourners that drive by posters would define him by that incident. It's a lot different with someone like Weinstein or Cosby or even Michael Jackson where there's just continual abuse.
With Kobe you have people either denying it, minimizing it, or referring to it as a "single act" or the "Colorado incident." So you still have the majority of the public on his side so to speak, and that's why people are walking on egg shells about it. If it was celebrity or political figure that wasn't well-liked that raped someone and got a way with it, I doubt many people would have a problem bringing it up once they died, especially in the era of #MeToo and #TimesUp.
Last edited by brayzie; 01-29-20 at 06:28 PM.
#3490
DVD Talk Hero
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
For those who don't know, or need a refresher, here's an exhaustive piece about the Kobe Bryant sexual assault incident:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-b...alf-confession
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-b...alf-confession
#3492
DVD Talk Legend
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
So when is it appropriate to discuss Kobe's past? Now certainly seems to be the perfect time to bring it up as there's no shortage of hero worshipping going on.
I've been angry with Kobe since 2003. Maybe as a father to a girl I'm extra sensitive to rapists getting away with it. If it had been my daughter I'd have wanted to kill him myself. That kind of crime is particularly vile and heinous.
#3493
DVD Talk Hero
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
For those who don't know, or need a refresher, here's an exhaustive piece about the Kobe Bryant sexual assault incident:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-b...alf-confession
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-b...alf-confession
#3494
DVD Talk Hero
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
I have no opinion about whether he raped her or not. Until this week, I barely remembered that some basketball player was accused of rape in Colorado. I've never watched a single minute of Kobe Bryant playing ball. I am neutral.
#3495
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
People are mentioning that it was just as single act, that he redeemed himself, etc etc. If anything, this exposes how fucked up our system and society is. An average joe without money accused of this crime? With the same amount of evidence? Yeah, there's no way he's avoiding a trial, let alone a conviction.
If you're rich, famous, and well-loved by the public...well, that's a different story. In this same thread, I think it was mentioned how a lot of these men had the power in these situations which is why many of the alleged victims didn't want to come forward, or when they did, nothing came of it. And some of them just wanted to settle it out of court because they didn't want to deal the media scrutiny and the accused's lawyers attempting to slander their character.
I wouldn't have brought it up, but the hero worship got to me - so many people saying that he was a, "Great guy," really triggered that pent up anger over what he did and how he got away with it.
#3496
DVD Talk Hero
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
I'm shocked, shocked that you think the wealthy and powerful are treated differently in the courts than the poor and powerless.
When someone can spend on their defense lawyers more than I can make in ten lifetimes, they're going to get a different brand of justice. I don't understand why you're using Kobe Bryant as the case to protest this instead of, say, Harvey Weinstein, whose trial is going on right now.
When someone can spend on their defense lawyers more than I can make in ten lifetimes, they're going to get a different brand of justice. I don't understand why you're using Kobe Bryant as the case to protest this instead of, say, Harvey Weinstein, whose trial is going on right now.
#3497
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
Yeah, I'm waiting for that one. Will they come out with it right away or wait till all the inevitable tributes die down? Or will there be silence and the eventual acceptance that it was just a false rumor after all?
#3498
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
Shit, even Aziz Ansari's power and wealth were discussed in relation to a woman accusing him of some kind of sexual assault or misconduct.
I don't understand why you're using Kobe Bryant as the case to protest this instead of, say, Harvey Weinstein, whose trial is going on right now.
And the reason I didn't bring up Weinstein in the last few days, is because 1) Weinstein hasn't died and people haven't subsequently been praising him and 2) people aren't chastising others for bringing up the fact that Weinstein was a rapist.
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B5Erik (01-29-20)
#3499
DVD Talk Legend
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
I was just about to mention this.
People are mentioning that it was just as single act, that he redeemed himself, etc etc. If anything, this exposes how fucked up our system and society is. An average joe without money accused of this crime? With the same amount of evidence? Yeah, there's no way he's avoiding a trial, let alone a conviction.
If you're rich, famous, and well-loved by the public...well, that's a different story. In this same thread, I think it was mentioned how a lot of these men had the power in these situations which is why many of the alleged victims didn't want to come forward, or when they did, nothing came of it. And some of them just wanted to settle it out of court because they didn't want to deal the media scrutiny and the accused's lawyers attempting to slander their character.
People are mentioning that it was just as single act, that he redeemed himself, etc etc. If anything, this exposes how fucked up our system and society is. An average joe without money accused of this crime? With the same amount of evidence? Yeah, there's no way he's avoiding a trial, let alone a conviction.
If you're rich, famous, and well-loved by the public...well, that's a different story. In this same thread, I think it was mentioned how a lot of these men had the power in these situations which is why many of the alleged victims didn't want to come forward, or when they did, nothing came of it. And some of them just wanted to settle it out of court because they didn't want to deal the media scrutiny and the accused's lawyers attempting to slander their character.
Kobe was able to buy his way out of this by intimidating the woman and then paying her off. She knew what kind of hell she was going to go through if she testified in the criminal trial (SHE would be put on trial by Kobe's lawyers), so for her it made far more sense to take the payoff and shut up - and avoid having her name and reputation dragged through the mud. Because it wouldn't just be HER hurt by that, but her parents, family, and friends. She did what she had to do to avoid being victimized again.
And that's the very thing that the #MeToo'ers are supposed to hate. What Kobe did was EXACTLY why this thread is in existence in the first place! Someone rich and powerful (and beloved, in Kobe's case) gets away with rape because he IS rich, powerful, and beloved and the victim is afraid of what would happen if she testified.
Same for Roman Polanski. Guy drugged and raped a 13 year old, and back in the day, on this forum, people were defending him. Why? Probably because he made some of their favorite movies like Chinatown and The Pianist. Didn't the majority of attendees at the Oscars give him a standing ovation in the 2000s? If it was some dude from To Catch a Predator that actually got away with it, completely different story.
That man is slime. A piece of garbage. And he's been adored for decades after a horrific crime against a 13 year old girl! When he dies, when will it be appropriate to bring up HIS rape case? I'd say minute #1. That act defined him as a person. And he has never shown one bit of genuine remorse.
So when Kobe died, my first thought after people started their hero worship and posting what a great guy he was was that he got away with a horrible crime (and that was the first thing that came to mind after those comments because it was NOT known who else was in the helicopter - no one knew the kids were in there).
But if he were a, "Great guy," he wouldn't have done what he did in Colorado. No, "Good guy," does that. Did he work to redeem himself after that? Yes. Was it likely that after having daughters he regretted what happened? Most likely. Does any of that make up for what happened to his rape victim? Not a chance.
Some acts define you as a person for the rest of your life. That should have been the case with Kobe. He got away with it, which made a lot of people really angry (including me), but the majority of people who knew who he was regarded him as a hero and a great guy. That's fucked up.
Read through this thread. Compare what Kobe did to what some of these guys did. Guys were villified and lost work because of things they SAID. Kobe became a hero despite something that he DID. He committed an act of the worst kind of violation possible to a woman. Should that be overlooked and forgotten or forgiven? Should the last 15 years of his life outweigh and offset that act? Should people call him a great guy and no one be allowed to rebut that assessment?
Kobe's case is more complicated that most, because he did work hard to rehabilitate his image and he did seem to understand that women need to be respected (and I would imagine that he understood how wrong he was for what he did). But does that mean he should be called a, "Great guy," without anyone pointing out his crime?
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#3500
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion
For those who don't know, or need a refresher, here's an exhaustive piece about the Kobe Bryant sexual assault incident:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-b...alf-confession
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-b...alf-confession
and something that stood out was this
"According to the police report, while he was being questioned by the officers about the alleged sexual assault, Bryant said, “I should have done what Shaq does,” adding, “Shaq gives them money or buys them cars, he has already spent one million dollars.” The report added, “Kobe stated that Shaq does this to keep the girls quiet.”
Meaning its normal behavior for many of the rich and powerful
Also does anybody have a link to the Polanski case? I heard he is a fugitive but never actually read what happened