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Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

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Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Old 04-25-23, 12:13 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by fujishig
With a married man who was her superior. There are power dynamics there that can turn ugly as the relationship sours. So it makes sense why she filed the lawsuit (presumably) after they broke up and that led to this investigation.
Well, I don't know any of the details of what their relationship was, or why they "broke up," or if he ever did anything to negatively impact her career. By all reports, she's doing pretty well at CNBC. And isn't it confusing how they had this relationship while he lives in California and she lives in the Middle East? It's not like he was keeping her in a condo in Van Nuys for booty calls.

I know that she knew he was married when the relationship started. I know that she knew he was The Boss when the relationship started. I doubt she was coerced into the relationship. At what point do we admit that completely grown up adult women have the freedom of choice to make bad decisions and enter into doomed relationships and live with the consequences of those choices? Isn't it possible that she pursued this relationship with a married man and the power imbalance because she thought she was going to get a wedding ring and a big payday? Since when aren't people allowed to gamble and lose?

Old 04-25-23, 12:37 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Count Dooku
I know that she knew he was married when the relationship started. I know that she knew he was The Boss when the relationship started. I doubt she was coerced into the relationship. At what point do we admit that completely grown up adult women have the freedom of choice to make bad decisions and enter into doomed relationships and live with the consequences of those choices? Isn't it possible that she pursued this relationship with a married man and the power imbalance because she thought she was going to get a wedding ring and a big payday? Since when aren't people allowed to gamble and lose?
Sexual harassment in the workplace is illegal under federal law, and it specifically companies' responsibility to provide a safe work environment. Because workplace relationships with power imbalances can often end in actions that are illegal (like discrimination or retaliation or coercion), companies (and especially large companies like this) often have relationship disclosure policies in place to protect the company against liability. This NBCU situation is an exact illustration of that, because even though it may have been consensual in the beginning, it has now ended with sexual harassment and discrimination claims, and they could now be liable for damages if she decides to sue.
Old 04-25-23, 01:03 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by TheBang
Sexual harassment in the workplace is illegal under federal law, and it specifically companies' responsibility to provide a safe work environment. Because workplace relationships with power imbalances can often end in actions that are illegal (like discrimination or retaliation or coercion), companies (and especially large companies like this) often have relationship disclosure policies in place to protect the company against liability. This NBCU situation is an exact illustration of that, because even though it may have been consensual in the beginning, it has now ended with sexual harassment and discrimination claims, and they could now be liable for damages if she decides to sue.
Because they can often end does not mean they always do.

Understood that this guy violated NBCU policy, and he knew that he was not going to get around that, so he left before they booted him out.

What I am challenging is the (now) accepted version of events that because their was a power imbalance, it is automatically true that the person with the greater power did something "bad" to the person with the lesser power. It can often be the case that the power imbalance is exactly what makes the relationship desirable to the person with lesser power.

because even though it may have been consensual in the beginning, it has now ended with sexual harassment and discrimination claims,
Anyone can claim anything, and that does not make it true. He violated company policy, but why the assumption that he violated her?
Old 04-25-23, 06:16 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

The problem is that even if there isnít a problem, thereís a problem. Because of the power differences, itís impossible to say that they had no affect either way. Thatís why these relationships are not allowed. Itís messy before it even begins.

If they really want to be together, someone needs to quit.
Old 04-25-23, 06:52 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Draven
The problem is that even if there isnít a problem, thereís a problem. Because of the power differences, itís impossible to say that they had no affect either way. Thatís why these relationships are not allowed. Itís messy before it even begins.

If they really want to be together, someone needs to quit.
Agree when my wife and I first started dating at work. We had to disclose it with the company. And we were not allowed to be under the same management.
You have to abide by the rules first otherwise you open yourself and everyone around you to scrutiny.

So like He-Man would say ďwant to fuck around get a hookerĒ
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Old 04-25-23, 07:57 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by nando820

So like He-Man would say ďwant to fuck around get a hookerĒ
Man I didn't watch that new Kevin Smith Netflix show all the way to the end but they really go places, huh?
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Old 04-25-23, 08:02 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by nando820
Agree when my wife and I first started dating at work. We had to disclose it with the company. And we were not allowed to be under the same management.
You have to abide by the rules first otherwise you open yourself and everyone around you to scrutiny.

So like He-Man would say ďwant to fuck around get a hookerĒ
At one of my old jobs, I worked at a call center in the Quality Department. We would audit callers and score them on how well they conducted the call. Several times during my 15 years there I informed my supervisor I was dating a caller. I volunteered the info, I don't remember being told we had to. I just felt it would put less possible stress on the relationship(s). If she got a bad audit, it wasn't my fault.
Old 04-25-23, 11:08 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Draven
The problem is that even if there isnít a problem, thereís a problem. Because of the power differences, itís impossible to say that they had no affect either way. Thatís why these relationships are not allowed. Itís messy before it even begins.

If they really want to be together, someone needs to quit.
Please understand that I am not questioning why companies do not want these situations to happen. They want to avoid trouble and the potential for trouble. They are risk-averse. It makes sense.

What I am challenging is the idea that a relationship between two people where there is a power disparity is a relationship that is wrong. Not wrong because it is a violation of some company's policy, but just wrong because it should not happen, period. And then further, the acceptance that when these relationships do exist and come to an end, it is automatically seen as sexual abuse or sexual harassment or sexual discrimination.

Supposedly, these two people carried on an affair for a decade. What if five years in, he had divorced his wife and married his mistress? Would NBCU give a shit about the past impropriety? Would anyone look at this marriage built on the foundation of a power imbalance and cringe at the wrongness of it?
Old 04-25-23, 11:15 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Count Dooku
Please understand that I am not questioning why companies do not want these situations to happen. They want to avoid trouble and the potential for trouble. They are risk-averse. It makes sense.

What I am challenging is the idea that a relationship between two people where there is a power disparity is a relationship that is wrong. Not wrong because it is a violation of some company's policy, but just wrong because it should not happen, period. And then further, the acceptance that when these relationships do exist and come to an end, it is automatically seen as sexual abuse or sexual harassment or sexual discrimination.

Supposedly, these two people carried on an affair for a decade. What if five years in, he had divorced his wife and married his mistress? Would NBCU give a shit about the past impropriety? Would anyone look at this marriage built on the foundation of a power imbalance and cringe at the wrongness of it?
There is not just the power imbalance but the whole one person being able to influence the other person's career. And that's where the majority of sexual harassment comes from, someone wielding power over another person that enables it.
Old 04-25-23, 12:05 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by fujishig
There is not just the power imbalance but the whole one person being able to influence the other person's career.
That is not by definition a bad thing.

And that's where the majority of sexual harassment comes from, someone wielding power over another person that enables it.
The fact that such a relationship could lead to a situation where sexual harassment exists does not mean that such relationships are (again, by definition) examples of sexual harassment, which is how they are seen now, in my opinion.
Old 04-25-23, 12:17 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

If you haven't seen it, this Bill Maher New Rules from 6 mo ago is very applicable to this situation.
Old 04-25-23, 12:30 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Count Dooku
The fact that such a relationship could lead to a situation where sexual harassment exists does not mean that such relationships are (again, by definition) examples of sexual harassment, which is how they are seen now, in my opinion.
It's because it is impossible for anyone (even the people involved) to know that the power imbalance had no affect on anything. And if you are in a relationship where one person has the ability to literally deny the other person promotions, opportunities and even employment itself (so money, housing, etc.), you cannot just say "well they were consenting adults". One of them has exponentially more power over the other. That's not the definition of "consent".
Old 04-25-23, 12:35 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Just ask Ime Udoka...
Old 04-25-23, 12:49 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Draven
It's because it is impossible for anyone (even the people involved) to know that the power imbalance had no affect on anything. And if you are in a relationship where one person has the ability to literally deny the other person promotions, opportunities and even employment itself (so money, housing, etc.), you cannot just say "well they were consenting adults". One of them has exponentially more power over the other. That's not the definition of "consent".
An adult cannot consent to enter into a relationship where the other person has power over them?

I don't think that's true. In fact, I know it is not true.

The premise of what you are saying is that adults cannot be allowed to make decisions that may end up being against their best interests. (I want to emphasize the "that may end up" versus a "will end up.")

If I enter into a relationship like you describe
one person has the ability to literally deny the other person promotions, opportunities and even employment itself (so money, housing, etc.),
Doesn't that mean that one person has the ability to ENSURE all those things? What if that is what the "power-less" person wants?

If I walk into a casino with my life savings, I'm free to gamble away those savings in pursuit of big winnings, even though I know the odds are against me. I can quit a secure job to pursue a risky employment opportunity that I think will be better in the long run. I can marry someone who all my friends tell me not to.

​​​​​​​Don't we have to let people to be free to just make bad choices, completely of their own volition, and with their eyes wide open to the possible downsides? Isn't that consent?
Old 04-25-23, 01:46 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Count Dooku
An adult cannot consent to enter into a relationship where the other person has power over them?

I don't think that's true. In fact, I know it is not true.

The premise of what you are saying is that adults cannot be allowed to make decisions that may end up being against their best interests. (I want to emphasize the "that may end up" versus a "will end up.")

If I enter into a relationship like you describe

Doesn't that mean that one person has the ability to ENSURE all those things? What if that is what the "power-less" person wants?

If I walk into a casino with my life savings, I'm free to gamble away those savings in pursuit of big winnings, even though I know the odds are against me. I can quit a secure job to pursue a risky employment opportunity that I think will be better in the long run. I can marry someone who all my friends tell me not to.

​​​​​​​Don't we have to let people to be free to just make bad choices, completely of their own volition, and with their eyes wide open to the possible downsides? Isn't that consent?
Yes. However what happens after the honeymoon period is over is what could cause harassment.

"I'm done with this relationship."
"No."

This is true of anyone who wields power over someone else, including most "normal" marriages, but it's magnified when your career and reputation are on the line as well. Again, you can consent to it but as a company who employs these people you need to manage your liability should someone sue, not only for harassment, but discrimination.
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Old 04-25-23, 08:41 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by fujishig
Yes. However what happens after the honeymoon period is over is what could cause harassment.

"I'm done with this relationship."
"No."

This is true of anyone who wields power over someone else, including most "normal" marriages, but it's magnified when your career and reputation are on the line as well. Again, you can consent to it but as a company who employs these people you need to manage your liability should someone sue, not only for harassment, but discrimination.
All that is true. I am not disagreeing with those statements. I am asserting that something else is true.
Old 04-25-23, 10:03 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Iím sure there are 17-year olds out there who are perfectly capable of consenting to a relationship with an adult, with all of the maturity needed (and more so than many adults). But in general, we say that a child canít consent to a relationship with an adult because they are a child.

So Iím saying the same thing here - even if a manager and their employee think they can handle it, they canít. The power structure is in place regardless of their feelings on the subject.
Old 04-25-23, 11:36 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Draven

So Iím saying the same thing here - even if a manager and their employee think they can handle it, they canít. The power structure is in place regardless of their feelings on the subject.
Don't you mean to say even if a manager and their employee think they can handle it, they aren't allowed? It's an irritating concept but, given the rules are in place, even those 100% capable of successfully managing such a situation are simply not permitted to do so. But the structure is in place to protect those who cannot manage it (and shield the company from liability). So it makes sense the rules exist.

EDIT: I shouldn't have left the line "and shield the company from liability" in a parenthesis, because it's the real reason behind the rule. I remember you used to be able to have an office romance as long as you reported it to HR. This was done under the guise to protect the individuals in said romance, but it was really to cover the company's ass should the relationship turn sour. Of course many would avoid HR simply because the relationship was in the early stages or due to an urge to not define it as such (to not feel tied down). I guess companies are now doubling down on a no tolerance policy as part of their CYA?
​​

Last edited by RocShemp; 04-25-23 at 11:46 PM.
Old 04-26-23, 12:20 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Draven
Iím sure there are 17-year olds out there who are perfectly capable of consenting to a relationship with an adult, with all of the maturity needed (and more so than many adults). But in general, we say that a child canít consent to a relationship with an adult because they are a child.

So Iím saying the same thing here - even if a manager and their employee think they can handle it, they canít. The power structure is in place regardless of their feelings on the subject.
I think that is incredibly insulting to people who in other very important aspects of their lives are given the freedom and responsibility to make their own decisions and live with the consequences of those choices. In an effort to make life "safe," we have decided to infantilize people who, otherwise, we expect and even rely on to behave with maturity. I mean you are literally making a comparison that says adults need to be treated like children!

Sexual harassment, discrimination, and abuse are crimes. Good. When those crimes are committed, the perpetrators should face justice and be punished. Two consenting adults deciding to enter into a sexual relationship, even if there is a power disparity between them, is not a crime. It could be the greatest thing that ever happened to both of them.
Old 04-26-23, 11:12 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by DJariya
He was in a sexual relationship with a CNBC reporter for many years and he is married. Apparently they had already broken up. This article has the details.

https://twitter.com/deadline/status/...ROaaX6I5S_8l2Q
Originally Posted by DJariya
https://variety.com/2023/biz/news/je...73e828aa12daf1

Well, looks like the reason he was forced to quit was Ms. Gamble turned on him and filed a sexual harassment and sexual discrimination complaint against him.
Some new info about Hadley Gamble
Hadley Gamble, who brought down NBC Universal CEO Jeff Shell, also had a romantic entanglement with a married Texas billionaire. Gamble, a CNBC correspondent who had an “inappropriate relationship” with Shell for more than a decade until 2019 — was also tied during the same period to David Bonderman, the billionaire chairman of private equity firm TPG. Bonderman — the 80-year-old co-owner of the NHL’s Seattle Kraken, with an estimated net worth of $6.6 billion, according to Forbes — has been renowned for his extravagant lifestyle, hiring bands like the Rolling Stones to play at his lavish parties.

https://nypost.com/2023/04/25/hadley...-shell-affair/
Old 04-26-23, 11:23 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Count Dooku
I think that is incredibly insulting to people who in other very important aspects of their lives are given the freedom and responsibility to make their own decisions and live with the consequences of those choices. In an effort to make life "safe," we have decided to infantilize people who, otherwise, we expect and even rely on to behave with maturity. I mean you are literally making a comparison that says adults need to be treated like children!

Sexual harassment, discrimination, and abuse are crimes. Good. When those crimes are committed, the perpetrators should face justice and be punished. Two consenting adults deciding to enter into a sexual relationship, even if there is a power disparity between them, is not a crime. It could be the greatest thing that ever happened to both of them.
Entering into a relationship like that shows me that they do need to be treated like children. I'm happily married but I've also been a manager and I cannot fathom thinking it would be a good idea to date someone who worked for me. If it was going to be the "greatest thing that ever happened to me", I'd do the adult thing and quit the job.
Old 04-26-23, 11:43 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Draven
Entering into a relationship like that shows me that they do need to be treated like children. I'm happily married but I've also been a manager and I cannot fathom thinking it would be a good idea to date someone who worked for me. If it was going to be the "greatest thing that ever happened to me", I'd do the adult thing and quit the job.
Adults are free to make terrible decisions regarding their own lives. If this situation requires that we treat them like children, then why don't we protect people from themselves and treat them like children in every potentially awful area of their lives?

You say, "I cannot fathom thinking it would be a good idea to date someone who worked for me."

People are free to make bad choices. They don't have to think something is a "good Idea" or realize that it is actually a "bad idea." They can just do what they want (as long as it's legal).

And you don't know whether something is going to be a great thing or a terrible thing. If I walk into a casino with $100K to gamble. It could turn out to be a great thing, when I leave with a million dollars. Or it could turn out to be a disaster when I walk out broke. I'm allowed to live my life and make that bad choice. Maybe everybody walking into a casino should be treated like a child and be subjected to psychological testing and have their finances reviewed to see if they are in danger of making a bad decision.

And we definitely need to do something about people having babies who should not be having babies.
And we definitely need to stop certain people from buying guns.

Oh wait, we can't do anything of those things because of freedom and rights.
Old 04-26-23, 11:56 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

They are free to do so, and the consequence might be a sexual harassment or discrimination lawsuit against them or the company as a result of it (or termination if it is against company policy because of those consequences). Just like the consequence of dating a crazy person is that they might burn your house down.
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Old 04-26-23, 12:54 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by fujishig
They are free to do so, and the consequence might be a sexual harassment or discrimination lawsuit against them or the company as a result of it (or termination if it is against company policy because of those consequences). Just like the consequence of dating a crazy person is that they might burn your house down.
Maybe everyone "entering into a relationship" should have to go inform the fire department.
Old 05-09-23, 10:33 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by DJariya
He was in a sexual relationship with a CNBC reporter for many years and he is married. Apparently they had already broken up. This article has the details.
And now CNBC and Hadley Gamble (the reporter) have "parted ways". I wonder if she got some kind of separation payment in return for not suing for sexual harassment or retaliation.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/09/media...ble/index.html

Edit: Yup, there's a "multi-million dollar settlement" associated with her exit:
https://www.axios.com/2023/05/09/nbc...r-gamble-shell

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