Draven

I work in a business where a woman getting pregnant affects things in a major way. The last fucking thing I would EVER say as a boss is "are you going to keep it?" even though it has a huge impact on the day to day. I say "congratulations" and "let's figure out a plan together".

I cannot believe that shit is being defended in here.

Ash Ketchum

I haven't heard of any of these people, but they're apparently big in Greece. Not that anyone's fingered Sophocles or Euripides yet.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/16/w...use-metoo.html

fujishig

Dang, Ash, way to sneak in the dirty stuff.

Giantrobo

Thank you. And side note, pregnancy can affect male employees as well because these days lots of men take Maternity Leave WITH their partners. I did it and I've had several guys do this who work for me. While some old dudes would say it's "soft"....these days are not like the old days where the man just steps aside and lets the woman handle ALL the pregnancy and baby havin' experiences then shows up a day or two after the baby is born and acts like he did all the work.

That said, I wouldn't even joke with a male employee about whether or not his partner is keeping their baby let alone a woman. And if my boss had said something like that to me, yeah, I'd be in the HR office filing a complaint.

whotony

...

whotony

Pathetic

Pathetic

Pathetic.

Runaway

In my company we are a team of three, one woman, two guys. Our colleague announced her pregnancy a few weeks back. He taking maternity leave means more work for us our team leader has to change a lot things around because she is crucial to his biggest project, so it's pretty inconvenient for us. No one asked if she is keeping the baby, we all were happy for her, even though we were surprised because her age suggested she and her husband wouldn't have another child.

We just asked, if she was sure the baby was hers. Now she redused her hours, because the doctor said, she shouldn't work more than three hours a day, which means our workload is getting bigger even before she is leaving and guess what, we aren't pissed at all.

Count Dooku

They did know each other for years. I have no idea how informal their relationship was and neither do you. But that's not the point, see below.

I'm not defending it.

Even if everything Carpenter says happened as she described, it is a unique situation between her and Whedon. He was reacting to her pregnancy and how it would affect the show. It was personal between the two of them.

So what's Benson's problem? And no one has explained the Tractenberg rule.

There was a post earlier in the thread where someone wondered why none of the Avengers have had anything to say about Whedon. Maybe it's for the same reason Gellar and Hannigan and Boreanaz and Dushku, etc, have not been talking about how horrible he is . . . because he wasn't horrible to them.

Whedon has made a lot of shit and worked with a lot of people, and TWO of those people come out with serious accusations about him, and what has been the reaction? He needs to disappear.

That's my problem with all this and why I have kept going in this thread. I am very concerned about the glee with which people are eager to see people (I will use the word) cancelled.

I was following this story and the reactions to it in various places, and so, so many of the reactions were along the lines of, "To hell with him. I hope he never works again."

Like I said, I'm not defending Whedon. No one can because he isn't on trial. Ray Fisher and Charisma Carpenter made their accusations, and the court of public opinion (like most people here) instantly decided to declare him guilty and sentence his career to execution. That's very troubling to me.

Draven

It comes down to if you believe what Carpenter and Fisher have said vs. what you think you know about Joss Whedon

Count Dooku

What does everybody who believes Carpenter and Fisher think they know about them?

clckworang

The thing that I don't get about this new cancel culture is the retroactive nature of it. I've heard it in this thread as well. "Now that I know Whedon is a creep, I cannot find enjoyment in his previous work any longer."

What's the statute of limitations on this outrage directed at the work? Hitchcock is a good example. Kubrick is maybe an even better one. He was described as cruel by many actors he worked with. His treatment of Shelley Duvall on The Shining is legendary, and yet, the movie is still widely beloved and considered a classic. It often just feels like being fashionable.

And I'm not trying to defend Whedon. I just look at his actions separate from the final work. I always remember a friend of mine telling me - years before the me too thing - that if movies were judged by the amount of fun people had while making it, Cannonball Run 2 would be considered the greatest movie of all time. The truth is that often the best art came out of not so great conditions. At what point are we allowed to like a movie or TV show based on its own merit rather than off camera drama?

Did anyone else think this sounded a lot like he actually is pissed about it? Because that's how it came across to me. 😂

PatD

I was pointing out that earlier in the thread heard something to the effect of: "Sure Mike Tyson admitted to beating women and was convicted for raping another women--but if he pulled that NOW, he'd be in trouble!" (What the fuck?) James Cameron was a nightmare to his staff in The Abyss. Quentin Tarantino permanently injured Uma Thurman in the making of Kill Bill. They're not being taken to task for this. There's no real rhyme or reason who gets busted--let alone busted for what. There's a statute of limitations for someone people and not for others.

The *big* question that I haven't gotten a straight answer on is: did Whedon commit a crime or do anything actionable in a criminal or civil case-- or was he simply a hateful bastard on set? Because you're going to have to bust a LOT of people of BOTH SEXES in the working world for that.

A court of law has some level of consistency because laws are supposed to be based on agreed upon PRINCIPLES of conduct. There's due process. A defendant gets their day in court and a defense council. The Court of Public Opinion doesn't have that--but it can still dole out life-ruining penalties all the same. Society expects me to go along with the latest in vogue lynch mob for the latest celebrity fuck-up. When I ask, "what has that celebrity done? I'm not getting getting a lot of specifics." And the reply is "they don't owe you specifics!" For which my reply is: "don't expect me to take part in your mobbing up of a person if you can't provide specific charges of what they've done--let alone proof of bad behavior."

Frankly, this is just a more socially acceptable form of mob justice and I refuse to take part in it.

Runaway

I read it again, it actually sounds pissed
I'm really not, I was just writing angry, because Whedon's behavior was excused.

Draven

The investigation into Fisher’s claims found some credibility because they were not dismissed outright and just watching what happened to Carpenter’s character on “Angel” is enough to know something went wrong, not to mention the behind-the-scenes stories that were common at the time.

And both have received support from others who were there.

So that’s more credible than the defense of Whedon, which seems to be “I really like Firefly so I know Whedon’s a nice guy!”

d2cheer

Based on what I have read here and nowhere else it sounds like he was a mean boss to some and a dick. Big deal. Burn him I guess. Fuck all this cancel culture nonsense with zero evidence. Anyone can basically say anything on twitter and people take it as gospel and real news.

That is where I stand based on what has been presented here. I don't give a rats ass if he works again or not.


Hollywood in general is doing a great job of trying to bury themselves right now and it could not happen a nicer bunch.

Draven

This isn't "anyone can say anything" - these are people who were there and experienced it firsthand. Not only should we believe what women say about the way men abuse them, but Carpenter's association with Buffy and Angel continues to be a good thing for her - what is her incentive to tear that down?

Naw, just the "old guard" who think it's acceptable to ask a woman who tells you she is pregnant if she's keeping the baby because it might mean you have to give her more purses to hold on your show...they are losing their power. Hint: that isn't acceptable.

RichC2

I wouldn't say zero evidence, it seems pretty well corroborated at this point. But none of it is illegal so it's simply a matter of if you think it's a big deal or not and opinions will vary.

He sounds like a bit of a dick and a bully, at least that seems to be the big take away for me, that isn't unique to Hollywood, men or people in power so overall I'm sort of ambivalent on the situation. Should he apologize for being a dick? Sure. But the outrage against it does seem to be a bit over the top. Now if Trachtenberg has something truly inappropriate to share, that's another thing entirely.

Paul_SD

What's deadly is when real life behavior runs counter to the image they've been associated with.
It's still positive when someone known for playing heavies and villains is commonly known as a warm person IRL.

It's when an artist's work is commonly seen as emphatic, progressive, and humanistic - when it regularly gives voice to less powerful constituencies- and then that artist is then revealed to be a colossal, bullying dick IRL, that's deadly to their brand.

Whedon's stuff has usually championed and gave voice to the kind of demos that are generally sidelined most of the time. And he treated low-brow genre material with sensitivity and creativity, using it to explore serious, humanistic themes. He's During the time of Buffy and Firefly, he's probably the last filmmaker I would have expected to be accused of being casually cruel to staff- especially female staff and co-workers.

For as talented as he has been, these stories are a stain that is going to be almost impossible to wash out over time.

Draven

And it's been something that has been said about him for years now...it's just coming to a head now. His ex-wife wrote that essay about his behavior back in 2016 and there were rumors of his treatment of Carpenter from the early 2000s.

PerryD

Maybe Paramount can hire Whedon to head one of their studios like they did John Lasseter.

PatD

This. This, right here.

Paul_SD

Not everyone pays heed to gossip.

Runaway

There are specific accusations of bad behavior, not criminal behavior, but you are so into your whataboutism, that you just ignore them. Joss Whedon isn't a wife beater, he isn't a rapist, he is accused of being a mean boss, just like you said. Just acknowledge the fact, he is accused of that and the accusations are probably true, since a lot of people hinted to the fact they are true and Warner removed Whedon from the show he was developing.

In my opinion Whedon hasn't to be cancelled, perhaps he should have some time to reflect on his behavior and change it in the future, but your unwillingness to even acknowledge the strong probability, that he is a mean boss, just because you like his shows and he was nice to you, when you met him. Than putting yourself on the moral high ground, for not particpiating is kind of funny.

Draven

And you know what goes a long way with the American public? Sincere apologies and demonstration of follow-through.

PatD

No it doesn't. Never has and never will. American culture by it's nature is deeply unforgiving.