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Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

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Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Old 02-12-21, 08:05 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Firefly writer Jose Molina’s comments

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Old 02-12-21, 10:07 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
James Marsters related a story where Whedon came off dicky to him.

Maybe the men aren't saying anything because they weren't there when whatever went on went on; seems like he's mostly creepy around women.
This is that story. Whedon sounds like such a dick.
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Old 02-12-21, 10:50 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by MysterioMan007
This is that story. Whedon sounds like such a dick.
The thing is, if he had done that to me I just would have decked his ass (depending on how close to me he got). At the very least I would have shoved him and told him to get out of my face and be a professional.

Kind of makes me wonder how he would have handled it if someone had fought back. Bullies don't like that, and often back down when people fight back. Not always, but a lot of the time because they're bullies because they're really scared and insecure themselves.

(And, yeah, I would have done that - coming from a lower middle class background I'd really feel like I had already overachieved, money wise, so getting fired wouldn't have bothered me all that much in that situation. And I would have gone public with it, too, so people knew WHY I got fired. And if I never worked in Hollywood again? So be it. I'll find a real job and live better off than I was before getting a good paying acting gig.)
Old 02-12-21, 11:19 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Runaway
Eliza Dushku supports Charisma Carpenter but she doesn't support her claims, she says she didn't know.
I went back to Dushku Twitter feed and she deleted her response.
Old 02-13-21, 07:14 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by LorenzoL
I went back to Dushku Twitter feed and she deleted her response.
It looks like she retweeted something, and that is what was deleted. There is still one on Instagram.
Old 02-13-21, 07:24 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by B5Erik
The thing is, if he had done that to me I just would have decked his ass (depending on how close to me he got). At the very least I would have shoved him and told him to get out of my face and be a professional.
...and you would have been doing summerstock until old age made you a background character actor/extra worthy.

This was the show runner and a temp player who was popular while he was on.

Frankly Joss to me sounds almost psychotic. He had a creative vision for the show, had the employment of hundreds of people resting on the shows success. and was seeing plans upended by circumstances he couldn't control (CC's pregnancy, Masters popularity).
You tame creativity too much and it oozes out as anodyne pablum.
But clearly, from all accounts, he was not the empathetic people person that his sensitive handling of the material suggested he was.

The stuff with Michelle though is something else entirely. Until that story comes out, people can only speculate- and the range of speculation there is anyway from awkwardly inappropriate communication all the way to statutory offenses, and anything in-between.

Trachtenberg herself, as an adult on later projects, was characterized by crew as a toxic personality too. I've seen people ready to excuse that behavior because of what may have possibly happened earlier in her career with BtVS.

If that's the standard, would Joss get a pass too if his past also contained abusive trauma for which he was the victim?

A lot of people in the arts share Faulkner's sentiment


Ars longa vita brevis
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Old 02-13-21, 07:53 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Paul_SD
If that's the standard, would Joss get a pass too if his past also contained abusive trauma for which he was the victim?
There is no standard. You have to review case by case. Whedon is not Trachtenberg.
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Old 02-13-21, 01:54 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Paul_SD
...and you would have been doing summerstock until old age made you a background character actor/extra worthy.
Again, as I noted - I would have been fine with that. Making that many appearances on that show would have paid me more for those few weeks than I made in that entire decade in the jobs I had. I would have been fine going back to working a regular job.

I just wouldn't let Whedon bully me like that. It might have done Whedon some good, too. He needed someone to stand up to him and maybe even kick his ass.
Old 02-13-21, 09:17 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

The more I've thought about Whedon, the more I've gone back to that Hitchcock story that Mabuse reminded me about. Despite his relative youth, especially at the time of Buffy, it wouldn't surprise me if he's a really old school tyrannical show runner.

He's a legacy TV guy. His father and grandfather both wrote for big shows. He might have seen similar behavior growing up or heard stories. It might have been more normalized for him than it would be for others.

Please don't take this as me trying to excuse his actions or give him a pass. At the very least, he sounds like a total asshole that crossed the line in the workplace several times in several different ways.

On a related note, it does make me wonder about a moving line that directors have to work with. I can absolutely understand certain tactics being employed with an actor to bring on that needed emotional response for the camera, tactics that would not fly in any other workplace. And then some actors might need that push, might thrive on it, while others will scream toxic workplace. I get it's the director's responsibility to know the actors well enough to push the way they're comfortable, but I can also see how easy it would be to go too far.
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Old 02-14-21, 11:10 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Draven
Why should they have to come forward and revisit all of this with people doubting their every word because they like "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"? He himself admitted his behaviors which match up with what these actresses are saying now (who were all very young at the time).
I'm not doubting anything any Charisma is saying. I'm just waiting for her to actually accuse Joss of something more specific than generally being an asshole. She chose to open her mouth, so say something. Doesn't seem like much of a demand for someone demanding attention.
Old 02-14-21, 11:19 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
I'm a manager and if I called an employee fat, treated them disrespectfully, threatened to fire them in a joking(?) manner, I'd get in trouble. Why should it be any different for a director or producer? Film/TV production should be a safe environment for employees just like any other job.
Actors and actresses can be hired for roles that have specific appearance requirements. It is possible for an actor or actress to alter their appearance in such a manner that it will be difficult or impossible for them to perform the job they were hired to do.

Does that describe any of the employees you manage?
Old 02-14-21, 11:32 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Giantrobo
Your post sounds a lot like a 1960's Man working in advertising listening to secretary in his office complain about how she is being treated at work.

"Suck it up sugar tits...no one likes a complainer".
I am open to evaluating Carpenter's complaints when I am confident that she is accusing Whedon of something worth complaining about.

Since her complaints are generally vague and fall under the category of Whedon being mean to her, I am forced to observe that it is all about her subjective perception of "mean" behavior.

Was Whedon particularly awful to Carpenter, or was she just particularly sensitive? Did he treat Alyson Hannigan the exact same way, and it all just rolled of her back? Should I be shocked by Whedon's behavior and want to see him "canceled?" I don't know until I know what he did. So far, I haven't heard anything that surprises me.
Old 02-14-21, 11:34 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Count Dooku
I'm not doubting anything any Charisma is saying. I'm just waiting for her to actually accuse Joss of something more specific than generally being an asshole. She chose to open her mouth, so say something. Doesn't seem like much of a demand for someone demanding attention.
She said plenty in her tweets.

I'm not sure what more you're wanting, or think you're entitled to, but your comments sound like the reason a lot of people typically remain silent about difficult topics like this.
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Old 02-14-21, 11:42 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Runaway
Eliza Dushku supports Charisma Carpenter but she doesn't support her claims, she says she didn't know.
All the statements are supporting Carpenter being heard, but none are corroborating Whedon's awfulness with information about his behavior. Did every woman who worked on Buffy and Angel sign an NDA?
Old 02-14-21, 11:44 AM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by andicus
She said plenty in her tweets.

I'm not sure what more you're wanting, or think you're entitled to, but your comments sound like the reason a lot of people typically remain silent about difficult topics like this.
She said he was upset about her getting pregnant, called her fat, and threatened to fire her (in a passive-aggressive manner).

What did I miss?

Edited to add: "difficult topics" like what?

Last edited by Count Dooku; 02-14-21 at 11:53 AM.
Old 02-14-21, 02:41 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

A big problem with situations like this is someone accuses someone of "doing things" without going into specifics. If you're set to make life-ruining accusations towards someone, you'd better be frank with the authorities (or in this case: The Court of Public Opinion) about what happened and ideally have some proof. The big question I've been asking and I'm still getting mixed responses to: did Whedon do something that's actionable in a civil or criminal court? (regardless of the
Statute of Limitations)
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Old 02-14-21, 02:54 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by PatD
A big problem with situations like this is someone accuses someone of "doing things" without going into specifics. If you're set to make life-ruining accusations towards someone, you'd better be frank with the authorities (or in this case: The Court of Public Opinion) about what happened and ideally have some proof. The big question I've been asking and I'm still getting mixed responses to: did Whedon do something that's actionable in a civil or criminal court? (regardless of the
Statute of Limitations)
Agree

Please note PatD said, "ideally have some proof." At this point in the clamor for Whedon's head on a pike, I am just asking to know what happened.

And if your inclination is to reply that I am not entitled to know what happened, then my answer is that Carpenter is making public accusations, so she is seeking a public judgement. This juror hasn't heard enough evidence to convict.
Old 02-14-21, 02:56 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Count Dooku
Agree

Please note PatD said, "ideally have some proof." At this point in the clamor for Whedon's head on a pike, I am just asking to know what happened.

And if your inclination is to reply that I am not entitled to know what happened, then my answer is that Carpenter is making public accusations, so she is seeking a public judgement. This juror hasn't heard enough evidence to convict.
Pree-cisely.
Old 02-14-21, 04:14 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Count Dooku
Actors and actresses can be hired for roles that have specific appearance requirements. It is possible for an actor or actress to alter their appearance in such a manner that it will be difficult or impossible for them to perform the job they were hired to do.

Does that describe any of the employees you manage?
Actually some companies could get away with terminating employees for being overweight if it becomes a health issue and causes insurance rates to be affected. There are varying state labor laws that might favor the employer or the employee. However I can't think of many circumstances where it'd be okay for a boss to make fun of or verbally abuse an employee for their weight. There's a right and wrong way to handle situations like that, and it sounds like Whedon was unwilling to work with some actors in a respectful manner.

Carpenter's pregnancy might have been a valid issue for the character, but it's not like there aren't ways around it with a little creativity. Gillian Anderson was a lead actor of The X-Files and her pregnancy caused the show runner to write an alien abduction storyline into the show so they could work around it. That's a very reasonable approach for everyone involved.
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Old 02-14-21, 05:35 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Count Dooku
All the statements are supporting Carpenter being heard, but none are corroborating Whedon's awfulness with information about his behavior. Did every woman who worked on Buffy and Angel sign an NDA?
Probably everyone has a standard clause in the contract. Benson and Trachtenberg didn't corroborate Carpenters statement, but both corroborated his awfulness, just in fewer words. One of the writers did so, too and James Marsters at least spoke about one incident, Sarah Michelle Gellar distanced herself from Joss Whedon and don't forget Carpenter came forward inspired by Ray Fisher and in support of him. Last but not least Whedon has been fired by Warner.
I'm pretty sure doubting his awfulness should be more difficult than believing in the goodness of his heart.

In my opinion it is also pretty telling that Whedon has disappeared, although Ray Fisher has a public Vendetta against him. Everyone guilty or innocent at least acknowledges that there is something going on.

Last edited by Runaway; 02-15-21 at 01:48 AM.
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Old 02-14-21, 05:45 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by DaveyJoe
Actually some companies could get away with terminating employees for being overweight if it becomes a health issue and causes insurance rates to be affected. There are varying state labor laws that might favor the employer or the employee. However I can't think of many circumstances where it'd be okay for a boss to make fun of or verbally abuse an employee for their weight. There's a right and wrong way to handle situations like that, and it sounds like Whedon was unwilling to work with some actors in a respectful manner.

Carpenter's pregnancy might have been a valid issue for the character, but it's not like there aren't ways around it with a little creativity. Gillian Anderson was a lead actor of The X-Files and her pregnancy caused the show runner to write an alien abduction storyline into the show so they could work around it. That's a very reasonable approach for everyone involved.
Whedon hasn't made any comment on anything Carpenter has said, but let's take a step back from the abuser/victim storyline that people are content to run with.

Whedon cast Carpenter on Buffy, and then made her the female lead on Angel, and quickly changed her character from comic to heroic, so he must have hated her guts, right?

When she announced she was pregnant (and keeping the baby), Whedon was content to simply write her off the show. Does that say anything about her?
And I'd like to hear from some of the other Angel producers about how they fought with Whedon to keep Carpenter on the show, but that horrible monster Joss couldn't be dissuaded from kicking her to the curb.
Old 02-14-21, 05:53 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

We have one person in here trying to cast doubt on the accusations because he met Whedon and he was nice to him.
How much did he charge you for meeting him?

Another person saying not enough evidence, with the first person agreeing with him.
Well you may never get that evidence in public and it is none of our business regardless of them saying something happened on a public forum. (Instagram). This is how many people communicate now.

Most of this stuff happened over 20 years ago and there is a reason why these things never come out and/or take so long and almost always itís because some Men in power are going to bury you for coming out with it.
Plus, mostly men will always be saying I donít believe you or youíre just too sensitive.
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Old 02-14-21, 06:04 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by Runaway
Probably everyone has a standard clause in the contract. Benson and Trachtenberg didn't corroborate Carpenters statement, but both corroborated his awfulness, just in fewer words. One of the writers did so, too and James Marsters at least spoke about one incident, Sarah Michelle Gellar distanced herself from Joss Whedon and don't forget Carpenter came forward inspired by Ray Fisher and in support of him. Last but not least Whedon has bin fired by Warner.
I'm pretty sure doubting his awfulness should be more difficult than believing in the goodness of his heart.

In my opinion it is also pretty telling that Whedon has disappeared, although Ray Fisher has a public Vendetta against him. Everyone guilty or innocent at least acknowledges that there is something going on.
You think that everyone working on Buffy and Angel had clauses in their contracts that would forbid them from talking about Whedon's abuse and sexual transgressions 15 years after the shows went off the air?

Awful is just an adjective. Like I said in a previous post, I just want to know what he is actually accused of doing before I pass judgement and "cancel" him. In no post have I defended Whedon by claiming he is a good person, but I am opposed --in every facet of life-- to the practice of labeling people "BAD" and wishing them to the cornfield.
Old 02-14-21, 06:28 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by whotony
We have one person in here trying to cast doubt on the accusations because he met Whedon and he was nice to him.
How much did he charge you for meeting him?

Another person saying not enough evidence, with the first person agreeing with him.
Well you may never get that evidence in public and it is none of our business regardless of them saying something happened on a public forum. (Instagram). This is how many people communicate now.

Most of this stuff happened over 20 years ago and there is a reason why these things never come out and/or take so long and almost always itís because some Men in power are going to bury you for coming out with it.
Plus, mostly men will always be saying I donít believe you or youíre just too sensitive.
I'm not asking for EVIDENCE. I'm asking for actual accusations.

According to Trachtenberg, there was a rule that Whedon couldn't be in a room alone with her. Why? Simple as that.

Carpenter says that Whedon "abused his power on numerous occasions" and that these "disturbing incidents" impact her to this day as she "suffers." Wow! What the fuck did he do to her? And everybody is still keeping it a secret 15 years later!?

Benson says it was "a toxic" work environment. Unless she means that Whedon was releasing benzene gas on the set, that adjective demands some unpacking.

Gellar and Dushku say they support all victims who speak out, but aren't making any accusations of Whedon. Hannigan is so far silent.

If Carpenter was abused by Whedon, she has had 15 years to talk about it all she wants with her family, friends, a therapist, a priest, or a lawyer -- and that was none of my business, but once she puts the accusations out into the public forum then it is MY business --I'm part of the public. I'm not eavesdropping on her life for fuck's sake.

I've talked about this enough (too much) for one day, so I am going to take a good break from the thread.
Old 02-14-21, 07:21 PM
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Re: Sexual Harassment/Assault & Abuse in Hollywood -- Discussion

Originally Posted by whotony
We have one person in here trying to cast doubt on the accusations because he met Whedon and he was nice to him.
How much did he charge you for meeting him?
I'm asking for a bit more than "did stuff". Some level of proof would be nice. That's the problem with The Court of Public Opinion: there's no due process. A person is accused and immediately found guilty before they are even allowed to make a statement. I find that a little disturbing--regardless if it's a celebrity I once admired or not.
Hell, even Weinstein and Cosby got an actual day in court. Whedon (to my knowledge) isn't even being charged with a crime (or even a civil suit).

I'm not trying to excuse bad behavior. I would just like a clear set of charges against the accused. I don't think that's unreasonable.

Am I biased in this matter? Yes. His work had a positive impact on my life. Meeting him was one of my most treasured memories. And now it's all ashes. But, I think my argument is still reasonable regardless who it's about.

(And for the record: I met him for free--for whatever that's worth to this discussion.)

Last edited by PatD; 02-14-21 at 08:14 PM.

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