Hazel Motes

I wonder if anyone will ever come out against James Cameron like they have against Whedon. All these Whedon stories are what I picture James Cameron is like, but worse.

PatD

While I won't defend Whedon's behavior (or ALLEGED behavior), it's curious to me how we give some celebrities a pass and come down on others. It usually comes down to where they are on The Hollywood food chain. I highly doubt Cameron would ever be called to the carpet for mentally/emotionally/verbally abusing his cast (if that's ever happened). Hell, Hitchcock and Kubrick were notoriously abusive to their cast--but, hey they made some of the greatest works of cinema, so they get a pass. It's the same thing as I mentioned earlier with Lennon or Bowie. Artistic talent and/or charisma can acquit some people in the court of public opinion. And that's one of the biggest flaws in the court of public opinion. It's not based on principle, but popularity.

Beyond the aforementioned, the court of public opinion is not based on any jurisprudence of any judicial body of any civilized society. The accused doesn't get to face their accusers, they oftentimes are found guilty before they can even make a statement of defense. And when they are found guilty, there's little hope for leniency or any kind of mercy or a second chance. It's all punitive and not restorative. Hell, even people found guilty of murder in a court of law (who actually did it) are considered more worthy of mercy than someone like Whedon. There's no consistency because it's not based on any real principles. That's why Donald Trump will be acquitted and is a lock for a 2024 run and why Whedon's a pariah before the facts are all presented and he can make a statement. Even OJ Simpson is relatively more publicly embraced than Whedon and Simpson was found guilty of murder in a civil court. The court of public opinion is little more than a quasi-civilized and subtle form of mob justice.

DaveyJoe

We're talking about Whedon because someone who worked for him accused him of abuse and several others came out in support of them. If someone came out to accuse Kubrick, Hitchcock, Cameron or whoever of abuse we'd probably be talking about them, no?

PatD

Kubrick and Hitchcock HAVE been accused of this stuff and they are not posthumously written off and their artistic output is still embraced. As I said, it depends on where the are they are on the food chain in relation to how egregious the alleged offense is/was. If it's something on the level of Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby than someone super big could fall. I could totally see James Cameron getting a pass for the same things Whedon's being accused of. Again: it's about what's popular not on any consistent principle.

One of the best examples of what I'm saying is the curious case of Mike Tyson. He was found guilty and went to prison for RAPE. And when he got out he was taken back by the public like nothing ever happened. Hell, he makes movie appearances and got his own animated series, Mike Tyson's Mysteries. Figure that out. Because I can't.

DWilson

As regards James Cameron, here's a piece about "The Abyss":

James Cameron is another famously particular director, and his gung-ho style on the set of 1989's The Abyss still irks leads Ed Harris and Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio to this day. The film largely takes place underwater, with the production's main headquarters being an abandoned nuclear reactor 40 feet below the waves, which led to all kinds of problems. Cast and crew were forced to constantly decompress, actors were made to relieve themselves in their wetsuits to save time, and Cameron himself nearly died when he ran out of air while shooting a scene. So did Harris, who admitted he thought he was done for when a mishap with an oxygen regulator left him inhaling a mixture of air and water during a scene.

As for Mastrantonio, the scene in which her character is resuscitated after almost drowning sent her over the edge after what had already been an arduous shoot. Freezing, soaking wet and topless, she endured hours of Harris pounding on her chest and shouting in her face before suffering a complete emotional breakdown and storming off the set screaming. She has also expressed extreme reluctance to work with Cameron again, owing to his apparent disregard for the safety and well-being of his cast and crew — who not-so-lovingly nicknamed the production The Abuse.

DaveyJoe

Or maybe the massive Me Too movement changed how society reacts to accusations? I think you're overestimating your opinion that it's about popularity. Whedon is massively popular among younger, more progressive audiences that would be critical of abusers.

majorjoe23

There was a whole movie about Hitchcock being a predator that was released less than a decade ago, The Girl.

PatD

As DWilson pointed out about Cameron on The Abyss: you'd think that that would cause him to be excoriated like Whedon. It doesn't. Quentin Tarantino disregard Uma Thurman's safety in Kill Bill and permanently caused her physical injury. Why isn't he getting dog piled on?

How do you explain Mike Tyson, someone who was actually convicted of rape, being just let back into society like nothing happened? He's not being shunned now. Is it because he did his time? Will Jared Fogle receive the same forgiveness when he's released? I doubt it.

Again: there's little rhyme or reason who is punished and who's let off in the court of public opinion.

Runaway

I think popularity is a part of it, as is news but also the time we live in. Hitchcock being abusive isn't news and he definitely abused his actresses, but he's not safe because he's one of the greats, he is safe because he is dead and the abuse happened centuries ago. But I'm pretty sure, his legacy would be viewed in a different light, if Hedren, Novak or Saint had accused him of rape.
Joss Whedon is news, not the actions Carpenter and Trachtenberg are referring to, but the accusations are news and show a pattern if you take Ray Fisher's newer accusations in to account. That combined with the MeToo movement, more awareness and a culture of hightened outrage are all in the mix.
I wouldn't disagree that for fame gives you more leeway, but I'm pretty sure, that James Cameron would have a massive problem, if Zoe Saldana came forward and told the world, he suggested to her to terminate her pregnancy or fired her from Avatar 2, because she was pregnant.

Mike Tyson resurgence is a mystery to me too. He, the heavyweight boxer, admitted to punching his wife and was convicted of rape, became the funny guest star of The Hangover movies, but again, if he beat up his wife now, he wouldn't be in a Hangover 4.

majorjoe23

Fogle and Tyson aren’t exactly an apples to apples comparison, though. I’m happy to avoid Tyson, and have mostly succeeded (I didn’t realize he was in The Hangover), but I do think it’s possible to earn redemption after a sexual assault. Has Tyson? I don’t know.

Fogle, on the other hand, was convicted of child pornography and illicit sexual contact with a minor. People might think Tyson has reformed, or that his victim is lying. They’re less likely to think that about someone whose victim is a child.

slop101

Even James (Spike) Marsters has recounted shitty behavior from Whedon...

https://screenrant.com/buffy-vampire...ames-marsters/

"I came along and I wasn’t designed to be a romantic character, but then the audience reacted that way to it. And I remember he backed me up against a wall one day and he was just like, ‘I don’t care how popular you are, kid, you’re dead. You hear me? Dead. Dead!’ And I was just like, ‘Uh, you know, it’s your football, man. OK.’

Rosenbaum asked Marsters if Whedon was joking, to which Marsters responded, "No, hell no." The podcast host then asked if Whedon ever apologized - he didn't - then, if Whedon was angry at him. Marsters elaborated, "He was angry at the situation." The Buffy actor went on to explain that Whedon was frustrated that Spike's popularity among the fans was adverse to his vision for the show."


Just seems more like an insecure bully than anything else.

Groucho

Can we also "Me Too" Whedon's fans for being insufferable?

DaveyJoe

I think if cast members of The Abyss came out with social media statements about Cameron, it would absolutely gain traction. One of the biggest filmmakers in the world getting accusations from people that worked with him is 100% news and it's foolish to think it wouldn't be. Here are google results of "Uma Thurman Kill Bill accident:" https://www.google.com/search?q=uma+...hrome&ie=UTF-8

Mike Tyson went to jail. He's also not directing any movies or acting as a showrunner like Joss Whedon has been. Me Too isn't about ruining someone's life, it's about recognizing that it's wrong for people to abuse their power to harass others, and changing industries to be safer environments for everyone.

PatD

That's very true.

PatD

If you're referring to me: I'm just choking down a bitter pill and being fussy about it.

Groucho

Not aimed at anyone in particular, just part of a long-running joke.

Mike86

To be honest I was never much of a Whedon fan. I haven’t watched any of his shows except for random episodes here and there.

I own Firefly and Serenity because I like sci-fi and the Blu-ray’s were cheap, but I’ve never gotten around to watching them.

I only really know him for his name and the fact that he did the first two Avengers films and Justice League.

Count Dooku

I'm sorry I wasn't looking at this thread yesterday so I could keep up with people's comments.

I want to echo Pat's comments that I quoted. What exactly is Charisma accusing him of?

The specifics are that Joss was angry about her pregnancy --because he didn't want Cordelia to be pregnant on the show, that he objected to her getting a tattoo --altering her appearance.
What else? He made passive-aggressive threats to fire her, he called her fat when she was pregnant, he played favorites.

Okay, so I'm going to be the jerk in the punch bowl that asks if that is it? He was mean to her, very mean.

She says he abused his power and traumatized her. Again, because he was mean?

Trachtenberg says his behavior was inappropriate, and because she was a teenage girl when she was working for him, people like DJariya are running with speculation about what inappropriate means? How about Michelle actually tells us what he did that was inappropriate before we call for his head? Was he mean to her as well?

And Amber Benson says that Buffy was a toxic work environment. I hate that phrase. I know what it means literally. Figuratively, it is just a vague complaint.

Draven mentions the rumors about Whedon. His ex-wife says that he admitted to her that he had an affair with someone who worked on Buffy (no specifics) and more affairs during the 2000s.
Here's a quote from his ex-wife:So, apparently there are many women out there who can come forward and tell us about what monster Whedon is, about how he used his power to acquire sex. I'm waiting.

DWilson

I'm not saying this to be coy, but has Ray Fisher detailed to the public exactly what Whedon did to him, or what he did on the set of "Justice League". Obviously he talked to HR or the parties doing the investigating, but has he laid out his case to the public, other than his frustrations with the system.

Draven

Why should they have to come forward and revisit all of this with people doubting their every word because they like "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"? He himself admitted his behaviors which match up with what these actresses are saying now (who were all very young at the time).

Giantrobo

He yelled at him for getting pregnant.

No we don't know yet...

DaveyJoe

I'm a manager and if I called an employee fat, treated them disrespectfully, threatened to fire them in a joking(?) manner, I'd get in trouble. Why should it be any different for a director or producer? Film/TV production should be a safe environment for employees just like any other job.

Giantrobo

Your post sounds a lot like a 1960's Man working in advertising listening to secretary in his office complain about how she is being treated at work.

"Suck it up sugar tits...no one likes a complainer".

fujishig

You mean I can't jokingly ask a pregnant employee if "she's going to keep the baby" then make fun of her tattoos and religion? What is this world coming to? I mean I didn't touch her. Snowflakes.

And I'm sure there are lots of people who actually think exactly like that (not anyone here, though)

spainlinx0

I've been a big fan of Whedon's work on Buffy/Angel/Firefly, and even Dollhouse so I'm aware of his reputation now, and it does sour me on those shows quite a bit.

He has mentioned that the character of Xander was sort of his avatar on the show, and if haven't watched the show in a while you might not remember that Xander could be a real POS towards Buffy and other women on the show. A kind of "entitled to their affection" kind of creepy neckbeard type.