robin2099

Would have been less distracting if they kept the actual race that they were portrayed as? Unfortunately when the characters are written that badly, it's easier to focus on the fact that they changed the race of three of them just because.

This. I saw the first Raimi movie three times in theatres. Even with a free ticket, I have no desire to see this again in theatres or on Blu.

As opposed to cool, rebellious Michelle who is so cool and rebellious she sits in detention for no reason at all.

You realize that these characters are typically described this way in the script right? Scripts usually don't say "Male. Cast whoever the hell you want in them".

Draven

Actually, plenty of scripts don't call for a particular race. I've never done casting for a major Hollywood movie, but I've selected casts for plenty of theater. I've never seen a theater script call for a specific race unless the show was about race.

All of these comics were written in a far less diverse time. I don't know why people are SO adamant that we must stick with white people. The only reason Peter Parker is white was because of when the character was created. Same for his friends.

fumanstan

Not even going to touch some of the arguments others are trying to make about diversity regarding this movie anymore since I don't share the same view as B5Erik, but with regards to this it's pretty simple for me:

I prefer to see the characters that i've grown accustomed to seeing visually represented in comics look the same way on screen, as much as possible.

Every time this argument comes up here it feels like some posters try and make not so subtle allusions to racism and how race doesn't affect the attributes of the actual character, which has nothing to do with it for me. I'm asian, but it doesn't mean I want to see Peter Parker turned in to Peter Chang just so my race is represented in a movie.

I'd much rather people stop making excuses for The Ancient One in Dr. Strange or Mandarin in Iron Man 3 instead.

B5Erik

How about going with the characters as originally written? Especially when they have a half century or more of history.

And if they somehow feel an absolute need to change the characters how about making sure that the changes make the characters better?

That most certainly didn't happen with this movie.

Draven

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But there are two other Spider-Man franchises with characters as they were originally written and not everyone agrees with your views on how this batch turned out. My wife walked out of this movie with "I think that was my favorite Marvel movie ever."

And considering that there is absolutely no reason that Flash Thompson needs to be white (as his race has nothing to do with the character), then I don't really care what race the actor is who plays him.

EddieMoney

So it sounds like the issue is not with the diversity of the cast, but with the lackluster writing and poor performances of the diverse cast?

DVD Josh

I was thinking about taking my four (almost five) year old to this on Saturday. Too young?

robin2099

Two different things. Hollywood scripts often describe the age, race and looks so that the casting directors have something to go on. It's a TV show, but Saved by the bell initially had Lisa Turtle written and described as a white Jewish girl, and AC Slater was written as being Italian.

It also had the highest Friday-Friday drop of any Marvel studios movie, and the biggest second weekend drop as well. So it obviously didn't click as well with people as say Wonder Woman.

Seems kind of contradictory. On the one hand you say there is no reason that Flash Thompson should be white and don't care he's not. On the other hand your talking about how much you liked having diversity in the movie. obviously it matters for you to say that.

Basically they went hand in hand for me. If the writing and acting from the diverse cast was better, I honestly wouldn't have cared much. The truth of the matter is that Ned, Flash, Michelle and Liz are all terribly written and annoying characters who did nothing but drag the film down. And when you aren't invested in them, you don't have a moment to say "OK, I understand why the took three traditionally white characters and changed the race. It was because they were best for the roles". Instead it just comes across as casting to try and hit every demographic.

It's really similar to the recent Power Rangers movie. The actors in that movie were pretty poor and the characters as they were written came across as someone trying to appeal to every demographic and like PR the actors didn't have an ounce of charisma that made them rise above the bad writing.

Groucho

It's borderline depending on the age of the kid. It's by far the least violent of all the Spider-Man movies.

B5Erik

Bingo.

Like I said - I would prefer that they honor the source material (because I LOVE the source material), but if they're going to change it it damned well better be an improvement. It wasn't - it wasn't nearly as good as the source material. The poor writing and acting for those altered characters made the movie less than it could have been. I really disliked the parts of the movie when those characters were on screen because they were either bland and faceless (Liz and Michelle) or annoying (Flash and, more often than not, Ned).

Draven

Ah yes, they really missed the mark on that classic dialogue.

B5Erik

I'd take that stilted, simplified 1962 dialogue over the generic garbage we got in Homecoming.

(And, for the record, the dialogue improved year by year as the comic went on and Stan got more confidence to write more sophisticated stuff. It's easy to take shots at a 1962 comic book, but a 2017 movie should be several notches above that. It wasn't. It was maybe one step up from what you posted.)

Draven

The point is that it took me 3 minutes to find an example from the source material of terrible dialogue and dated references. So why do we hold the source material in such high regard? Some of it was downright AWFUL. And I'm a former comics collector too.

And I do not agree in any way that the writing in Homecoming was at or near the same level of what I posted. It's far better and far more natural. Peter's interactions with his friends and classmates was one of the things I liked most about the movie, mostly because we didn't get ANY of that in the other two movie franchises.

Timber

Because it was that source material that got this movie and every other comic movie made. There is no Spider-Man without that source material. If they want to "sweeten it" fine. If they want to change the ethnicities of some of the characters fine. But make it a change for the better, not just a change to make it "diverse".

B5Erik

I couldn't stand Liz - she was nothing. No personality whatsoever. And she said nothing of real consequence to the movie. Same with Michelle. Why was she even there??? Flash became a pathetic, jealous loser, and Ned was annoying more often than he was funny.

Sorry, I couldn't stand the interactions with them much of the time because it was all so bland and faceless - generic high school stuff. With a $200 Million budget they should have been able to come up with a MUCH better script when it came to the supporting characters. But they were on a deadline, and they spent time (a finite resource in this process) going over the changes to the characters rather than fine tuning the dialogue to actually make the characters interesting and entertaining.

At least big, bad, bully Flash is interesting and entertaining - especially when Peter takes him down a peg or two in Raimi's first Spidey movie.

B5Erik

BECAUSE IT WAS GROUNDBREAKING!

There had never been a comic book with character dynamics like that. It gave Stan the foundation to build on to consistently and constantly improve that dialogue and make it more sophisticated year after year.

Without those early, simplistic issues you'd never get the stuff from the late 60's and forward. You'd likely never have a Marvel Cinematic Universe, either, as Spider-Man was Marvel's most popular comic book for the first couple of decades in the Marvel Era of Comics. There wouldn't have been any Spider-Man movies made if the cast of characters in the comic was the same kind of thing that readers had seen prior to 1962.

If you can't see that then we will never see eye to eye on anything Spider-Man related.

Draven

I understand that it laid a foundation. I don't understand why what was established when the world was a much different place is still the only way to retell this story today.

I don't think reflecting the world as it is today for a movie set in today's world is a bad thing, even if it is minimized as simply an attempt to be "diverse". Maybe an African-American girl was excited to see herself as a love interest for a superhero like Spider-Man. Why is that so terrible?

See that I disagree with too. Flash is like an ant to Peter post-transformation. "Crushing" him just drives home how immature Peter is (which I don't think is the point of the scene).

fujishig

Terrible actors who were cast mainly to appeal to every demographic with bad writing? I didn't see the Power Rangers movie but isn't that as close to the source material as you can get?

I'm also curious how long people wanted this movie to be? Which action scenes do you take out to fully flesh out each and every one of these HS characters? If you take out Iron Man and the MCU connection, maybe you'll have enough time, but who wants that?

In the other thread we were talking about the lack of secret identities in superhero movies and I said of all the superheroes, Spider-Man is the one that needs to have equal time to both alter egos, but that just may not be possible to fit both in in trying to please the diehard fan. I mean they already mercifully cut out the origin.

devilshalo

How is Peter supposed to know what his powers or abilities are at that point when confronted by Flash in the first film? He's just as surprised at his newfound powers and dealing with Thompson in such a way is pretty much how any teen that's been bullied or felt weak or inferior would feel if they had that talent. After that can Peter feel more confident and be indifferent to anything Flash would say or do.

Douchebag DJ Flash in Homecoming is just an asshole that Peter can shrug off and ignore because he's not an imposing threat. "OMG... he's gonna call me Penis Parker!" He doesn't confront Peter the same way Sports Jock Flash would, so it feels different.

Giantrobo

I'm totally shocked that B5Erik didn't like a Marvel film. I am NOT, however, shocked that B5Erik is complaining about diversity.

This should make you happy.

Petition to Make Black Panther White

devilshalo

Black Panther/T'Challa is Wakandan and is drawn and written as a person of African descent, so your point doesn't counter his argument about forced diversity.

Hokeyboy

I think the narrative so far has been:

1. The forced diversity was annoying and distracting

2. The non-white actors were poorly underwritten

3. The non-white actors were given horrible dialogue

4. If they had cast white actors, the screenwriter would have had more time to work on the dialog and characterizations

5. The screenwriter explicitly specified race/ethnicity in his script, which took up most of his dialog/characterization efforts

6. The casting director was apparently also the screenwriter

7. The preponderance of white actors in almost all the primary roles gave them the best dialog and character moments, and of course had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they were in fact cast in the primary roles.

8. Women can't put on muscle mass and would never be able to carry a proton pack.

DJariya

So bottom line from all this back and forth rambling:

B5Erik -- Liked Spider-Man, Peter and Iron Man. Everything else he hated.

Draven

That's the point. She was the girl who Peter loved from afar but wasn't much to him in the end. She was never supposed to be the Gwen or MJ in his life. I knew plenty of girls like that growing up.

For an alternative to Liz. Also to keep the movie from being a total sausage fest, I assume. And she was funny.

Sounds perfect for a bully character. And Peter didn't even have to beat him up.

Completely disagree. My wife and I thought he was laugh-out-loud funny and one of the best parts of the movie. Again, because that's a perspective we've never seen in a Spider-Man movie.

Timber

Ned was fine, exactly what I'd expect a nerd sidekick to be. Didn't think Michelle was funny in the least. Probably my least favorite aspect of the movie, if I can forget about Penis Parker.