DVD Polizei

Have you ever read the Bond books? If so, please explain the author's description of his character and lay out why you think a Black Bond would be a good idea. I'm genuinely curious, and I don't really care one way or another.

If you haven't read the books, then you don't have much to substantiate your argument. Why? Because if you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd know that the character Ian Fleming wrote about...WAS MORE TO DO WITH IAN FLEMING HIMSELF.

Yeah, read that again.

Live And Let Die, Fleming's second book I think, refers to who Bond's "color" really is. If you wanna call that racist, knock yourself out, buddy.

Half cyborg believable? Ok, now I'm pretty sure you're not posting about Bond, and instead, are just here to accuse somebody of something. Take it to the Politics forum, please. That's where all the gutter-level accusations are given validation, and you can swim in neck-level circle-jerk fluids.

DVD Talk is turning into a "If you don't agree with me, you're a racist" website.

I don't see the "outrage", other than you and others' accusations of racism in every goddamn post I read on this website. You and others whip out that card more than the numbers of movies I own. Which is in the thousands, by the way.

Personally, I'd like a Native American Bond. But I'm not going to get all bent out of shape, and call you racist because you disagree with me.

B5Erik

That is so not true.

Once more with feeling...

George Lazenby's Bond married Tracy. She was murdered by Blofeld at the end of OHMSS. Sean Connery's Bond was still enraged by her murder in DAF and went after Blofeld for revenge. Roger Moore's Bond visited Tracy's grave and was still clearly saddened by her loss. Timothy Dalton's Bond was STILL not over her death as the wedding of his friend Felix brought up bad memories and he couldn't deal with them so he walked away.

Same character. Continuity.

They had to do a soft reboot with Goldeneye (time is a bitch), and then a hard reboot with Casino Royale - but in both cases the character was still the same, just in a different time period. So, still a sort of continuity.

rw2516

Bond has the social pedigree that he can get into the snobbish country clubs, golf courses and private gentlemen clubs. If a restaurant is full, they'll find him a table. "Oh, it's you Mr. Bond. Right this way."
I honestly don't know if these social barriers still exist in Britain based on race alone. I would hope not.

My impression of the character has been that Bond expects the privileged treatment because he was raised that way, as opposed to self teaching himself about how the other half lives.
His suits are tailored. Smoking Bond has his cigarettes custom made by hand.
He walks the talk.

Craig's Bond is more thuggish, which gives a "from the streets" impression, but no more a thug than Connery in the first couple films, before humor was injected into the violence.

The best known examples of racism in the movies is by Bond himself. In Dr. No, Bond orders the black locals around like servants. Most notorious is when he orders Quarrel to "fetch my shoes."

hdnmickey

As posted earlier, if the movie was set in the era where the books were written all the stuff people are posting about what was true in the 60's makes sense. Going on about how it should be same when they movie is set in 2020+ makes about as much sense as stating Bond should still be able to get away with the blatant racism and misoginism that plagued the first half of the franchise.

Mabuse

Oh those poor films. To be so “plagued”. Super-mega-millions international hits. If only those old dinosaurs who made them understood how to make movies correctly like you do.

Groucho

Do you agree that aspects of those older films haven't aged well? I mean, you don't have to be a SJW to find Bond slapping a lesbian around until she turns straight and sleeps with him to be objectionable.

hdnmickey

Or the treatment of racial minorities in any film featuring Connery, Lazenby, or Moore. Or just getting physical with any women that dared to object to him in any way. Which reminds me... didn't Connery's once state it was OK to slap a woman?

Hokeyboy

But Tracy was never mentioned by name in DAF. Bond was going after Blofeld ostensibly because he was tracking down the head of SPECTRE, with whom he clashed in multiple movies before (either directly or indirectly). There was never a mention of Tracy, a "this one's for my wife" quip, etc. In fact DAF was played mostly for laughs. It was hardly a revenge thriller... or even revenge-motivated whatsoever.
Hence the "vague backstory" comment. They aware of Bond's past adventures but never actually beholden to them.
Which actually reminds me, I have loved 2 of the 4 Craig films, was meh to another, and didn't particularly care for the other one, but if I had one complaint it was the repeated "this time it's PERSONAL for Bond!" theme. Enough going to that well. Whoever thought it was a great idea to make Bond and Blofeld "stepbrothers" should be beaten with a carpet cleaner.

Send Bond on an adventure to save the world (or Britain, or the West, or whomever) from a bad guy. Don't make it all about him. And do an adaption of "Moonraker" -- THE NOVEL. One of the best Fleming did, and the movie was MINO.

"Hugo Drax cheats at cards..."

IBJoel

So content of films notwithstanding, I see here two sides regarding the casting of the next 007:

People cool with James Bond being Black British, Indian-British, or another racial/sexual minority (and apologies if I used incorrect terms, I'm not myself a Briton) for the reasons of A. "Why not?" and B. [insert name] is an awesome actor.

People who would prefer Bond remain white, for the reasons of A. How the character has traditionally been depicted, B. the author's context (be it himself or his experiences/service), C. historical/social context.

Does this seem reasonable? Also, to me it seems somewhat like a Watsonian versus Doylist approach.

rw2516

You nailed it.

In the real world Bond is a fictional person so there is no reason he couldn't be black.

In the fictional world of James Bond there are odds and ends of detail that would have to be ignored or explained away for him to be black.

In the real world every alien race in the universe would not speak English. It can be explained away as a method of telling the story.

In the fictional world of space travel everybody can speak English, but you need some plot device to explain it. Universal translator device, etc.

We know we are watching a fictional story so we accept aliens speaking perfect English.
The fictional crew of a starship, in a fictional world, should wonder why the alien race they just encountered can speak perfect English. It requires an explanation.

DVD Polizei

The only person I could possibly see portraying a Black Bond, is a guy that has already been in a few Bond films, but has the persona to match.
Colin Salmon would be my choice. He's an amazing actor, and I've always enjoyed films with him in them.

hdnmickey

I think you left an important peice of it out. Part of the key point about a black Bond not being a problem has to do with them setting these movies in our current timeline where everythimg is far different than when the books were written. The same people people have ackowledged their point that it would be different if the movie was set in the era in which the books were writen. And then of course there is the issue of the movies never going into much of the lengthy backstory that is indeed present the books. This is a discussion about the moves, not the books.

BUt I can understand why those points were missed given each person saying Bond MUST be wite has ignored them.

AGuyNamedMike

Yeah, I brought him up years ago. I was tickled to see him at least get that recurring gig as Robinson.

What could have been...

fumanstan

I'll repeat something I touched upon in Feedback, but I initially thought some of the reasons brought up regarding Bond's background as a bit of a stretch to keeping him white and something I imagine 90% of audiences don't think about as deeply, but I recalled that when it comes to comic book movies I also prefer that comic book actors match the race of their book counterparts as much as possible and hated when posters here acted like that was an irrational thought.

There's nothing wrong to me for people wanting to maintain the character that they're already familiar with and identify as a certain way, especially when it comes to adapted material.

As only a casual fan that didn't watch the bulk of the movies until after the Craig movies, it wouldn't bother me to see Bond played by a Black actor.

DVD Polizei

You can't have a discussion about the movies...without the books. Why? Where did the movies come from? Out of thin air? The characters in the movies come out of thin air, too? I don't think so. The books are important, and to discount them, reveals a lot of what we're dealing with, outside of acting and entertainment discussions.

I don't think those people, who are for another "white" Bond, ignored anyone. And it's really not their position to, because they were the ones being labeled automatically by others who didn't have a solid reason why, other than politics.

I'm not saying Bond MUST BE White. In fact, I just mentioned a potential actor that I think would be great.

The problem is that, from a fictional standpoint, it changes the look and feel of the character. Now, for those who don't know anything prior to 1990, and were born around that time as well, they won't have that perception.

But I guarantee those same people, 20 years from now, will be just as adamant if a character is suggested that completely changes THEIR perception of what THEY used to be familiar with for several years.

So, it's not about this casually and carelessly tossed term, racism. It's about familiarity.

So, I'm ok with a Black Bond, but just be aware the movie may not be as successful, because it will put a lot of people into unfamiliar entertainment, and may not receive it like you might or somebody else. Because Bond has multi-generational fans, and if we're going to cater to one generation of fans, then it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Dan

As per my post in a different thread, I nominate Irrfan Khan.

OldBoy

I don’t want to “monkey up” this thread by suggesting Elba , but I do think Hiddelston or Fassbender would be good. Craig was just so rough and gruff. Pretty original take. Hiddelston or Fassbender would bring more the Roger Moore vibe. Which of course is not a bad thing...

Hokeyboy

I'd prefer Imran Khan:

DVD Polizei

I'd take Jude Law over Fassbender.

windom

How about The Rock? He's in pretty much every movie anyway.

B5Erik

I still like the idea of Cavill playing Bond. I think he'd be great.

Jay G.

Moved from a tangent on another thread:

I don't know who that that is.

If race is central to the identity of the character, it's a trickier question. Also, if the race is changing from a group underrepresented in film to one overly represented in film, people have issues because it decreases the diversity we should instead be working towards increasing.

If Bond was the last white male action hero in film, and/or his race was central to his character in some way, then he should stay white. But those situations aren't true for Bond. His central identity is as a British spy. Any race can play that.

So you're saying Craig's Bond is secretly dying his hair? Even while drunkenly slumming? And that he dropped the Scottish accent he had years ago? And de-aged?

Indeed, why not? I think you meant those to be ridiculous suggestions, but they're really not. Connery was 52 when he last played Bond. Harrison Ford was 66 when he last played Indiana Jones. Don't you think putting an age limit on the character, instead of considering the actor's believably for the physicality of the role, is ageist?

Except saying that Craig's Bond had never been on a mission before, wasn't even a 00 agent at the beginning of the film, different hair color, different attitudes about women as bosses or coworkers, etc.

But did they just think the new design was not aesthetically pleasing, or were they opposed to the idea of a different costume, or did they oppose any costume of a certain color based on principle?

Right, separate but equal!

It's not really racist to think that a completely new, original spy character will likely not be as successful as JAMES FUCKING BOND. That's true of even new white spy characters.

The idea is that the character regularly gets recast, so why not open it up to more actors to pick from? If the James Bond films had ended after Connery retired, maybe there's something to say about starting up a new film franchise with a new character. But James Bond has always changed, and changing race is just another change.

dex14

Since you mentioned Jones, do you think it would be silly if Idris Elba was cast as Indiana Jones?

B5Erik

White privilege. Upper class privilege that does not extend to black people, even in modern day Great Britiain.

He's a snob. He's privileged in a way that a black man cannot yet be in Britain.

If you've got a problem with that then it's a problem with the system in Britain, not me. I don't think it's fair or right, either, but it is what it is and I'm not in a position to be able to change it.

First off, why not?

Second, would you have Michael B. Jordan play Lou Gherig? Why not?

Bond is just as real to some people as Lou Gherig because he's been the same basic ethnicity since 1953 (White people from those two big islands in the North Atlantic just off Northern France). That's real to a lot of Bond fans.

B5Erik

Can you imagine the outrage if they switched him back to white after having a black actor play him?

No chance that it would happen for at least a generation or two. That would be a HUGE PC PR mistake.

Then why worry about pushing for a black actor to play Bond?