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Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) — The Reviews Thread — SPOILERS

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Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) — The Reviews Thread — SPOILERS

Old 12-29-15, 09:48 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by ntnon View Post
1. TPM is about a boy being told he must leave his home and be the focal point of a crumbling order, surrounded by the political shifts towards a new system of governance.
Anakin doesn't even show up until like forty-five minutes into the movie, and he's not told he has to leave home for another half hour after that. It's like if ANH had begun with an extended sequence showing the theft of the Death Star plans and then spent half an hour with Leia's ship dodging the Empire before getting caught above Tatooine and introducing Luke.

And let's not forget all the plot holes in the movie -- why is Palpatine so intent on keeping Amidala away from Coruscant, to the point that he reveals the existence of the Sith by sending Darth Maul after her, and yet within fifteen minutes of her arrival in the capital, she's made Palpatine Chancellor? And when Qui-Gon finds out Sebulba is immune to Jedi mind-tricks, why didn't he go to find another merchant instead of taking this incredible risk that could've left them stranded on Tatooine?
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Old 12-29-15, 09:50 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Anakin doesn't even show up until like forty-five minutes into the movie, and he's not told he has to leave home for another half hour after that. It's like if ANH had begun with an extended sequence showing the theft of the Death Star plans and then spent half an hour with Leia's ship dodging the Empire before getting caught above Tatooine and introducing Luke.

And let's not forget all the plot holes in the movie -- why is Palpatine so intent on keeping Amidala away from Coruscant, to the point that he reveals the existence of the Sith by sending Darth Maul after her, and yet within fifteen minutes of her arrival in the capital, she's made Palpatine Chancellor? And when Qui-Gon finds out Sebulba is immune to Jedi mind-tricks, why didn't he go to find another merchant instead of taking this incredible risk that could've left them stranded on Tatooine?
Not that I disagree..but in regards to Watto...he states he is the only one around who has that type of hyperdrive.

Last edited by dex14; 12-29-15 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 12-29-15, 09:58 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

That was Watto. Sebulba was the podracer. But like that 90 minute review said, that's the oldest sales trick in the book, plus with Qui Gon's duplicity in the dice roll, why didn't he just steal Anakin, his mom and the part.
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Old 12-29-15, 10:21 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Sebulba was a Dug--an especially dangerous Dug.

And you call yourselves nerds....
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Old 12-29-15, 10:38 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
He mentions (while communing with Vader's helmet, I think) that he's being seduced by the light. My take is that he's a good kid, who rebelled against his parents and his uncle for some reason... and maybe he wants the power that he sees in the First Order, but he still struggles with what he has to do..
I'm musing on a theory about Kylo Ren. Perhaps...

Spoiler:
He's actually a HERO. Masquerading as a pawn o Snoke to bring him down from the inside. (Like Luke in the comics series.. Dark Empire?) Echoing such real and fictional actions as deepcover agents, Severus Snape and Jon Snow.


Potential supporting evidence and/or possibilities:

Spoiler:
  • MASKS and Knights - The Knights of Ren massacred the Jedi school (we think), wearing masks. And a) we haven't seen them since (did they all survive), b) could have been anyone behind their masks, leading to c) it need not have originally been Kylo behind the mask...
    • Extrapolating wildly from this vague theory, that could be when Luke sends Kylo in place of the head of the Ren to infiltrate Snoke/order. Which also could suggest:
    • Not everyone/anyone was in fact killed - there could be others hiding with Luke.
  • TANTRUMS - Perhaps part of Ben Solo's actions are the result of his being youthful, part rebellion, but also partly the strain of deep cover and even... playing the part of a villain.
    • Talking to Vader then becomes doubly meaningful - he may be seeking guidance for RESISTING as much as being evil.
    • Talking about the pull of the light may be less that he feels himself being pulled from evil but that he's having a hard time acting his part because the light is so strong.
  • KILLING HAN - He says he needs Han's help to do what he must (alleged fakeout, since we hope he means 'turn back' when he seems to mean 'turn worse')... what if he knows he must kill his father to keep his cover, but cannot do it without help?
    • What if Han knew that Luke had sent Kylo in.... but Leia doesn't? That could explain Han's fatalism at the end, his reasonably pathetic attempt at coversion and also allow his death to be more noble and self-sacrificing. (c.f. Snape kills Dumbledore)
  • BATTLING FINN and REY - Kylo here a) doesn't want to kill them and b) wants to encourage Rey to reach her potential.
    • This also adds more weight to Kylo wanting Rey to join him (and overthrow Snoke/order), explains why he took his helmet off (and the flicker of recognition some see in Rey) and also might allow for why he just leaves Daniel Craig to guard her...he wants her to feel the Force and escape.


Any agreement?!
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Old 12-29-15, 11:00 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

This was 3.5 at best (which I voted) and I think by the end of "this trilogy" this film will be viewed much like the Phantom Menace is now:

- The story is too unoriginal and has too many plot holes which I am not going to bother re-posting (a good summary is here though full disclosure, some of these are reaching http://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-a...b_8850324.html).

- Phasma's perceived importance in the pre-release marketing vs. actual use\involvement in the movie was proof that the character was a last minute addition to add more diversity to the cast as well as to add another cool figure to the toy line for fans to purchase.

- Some of JJ's choices in pacing and camera techniques were just horrible. From the snap-zoom of the Falcon being chased by the Tie Fighter on Jakku to the end helicopter 360 degree filming technique of a scene that was already uncomfortably over long. These scenes (and others) took me out of the film as they did not feel like Star Wars but more of a kid showing off his cool new toys.

- After all of the hype around the use of practical affects, the film-makers choose to have two primary characters ruined by CGI (when both could easily have been humans in makeup\costumes) and one scene basically re-create the Guardians of the Galaxy.

- On the flipside, the planet landscapes felt too earth like. Every planet we visited felt like we had scene it in an issue of National Geographic. There was nothing like Bespin or Degobah in this flick and most of what we have seen was a retread of the environments we already visited in the OT.

These are my biggest complaints though the troublesome plot points could be one big post as well.
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Old 12-29-15, 11:11 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by ntnon View Post
I'm musing on a theory about Kylo Ren. Perhaps...

Spoiler:
He's actually a HERO. Masquerading as a pawn o Snoke to bring him down from the inside. (Like Luke in the comics series.. Dark Empire?) Echoing such real and fictional actions as deepcover agents, Severus Snape and Jon Snow.


Potential supporting evidence and/or possibilities:

Spoiler:
  • MASKS and Knights - The Knights of Ren massacred the Jedi school (we think), wearing masks. And a) we haven't seen them since (did they all survive), b) could have been anyone behind their masks, leading to c) it need not have originally been Kylo behind the mask...
    • Extrapolating wildly from this vague theory, that could be when Luke sends Kylo in place of the head of the Ren to infiltrate Snoke/order. Which also could suggest:
    • Not everyone/anyone was in fact killed - there could be others hiding with Luke.
  • TANTRUMS - Perhaps part of Ben Solo's actions are the result of his being youthful, part rebellion, but also partly the strain of deep cover and even... playing the part of a villain.
    • Talking to Vader then becomes doubly meaningful - he may be seeking guidance for RESISTING as much as being evil.
    • Talking about the pull of the light may be less that he feels himself being pulled from evil but that he's having a hard time acting his part because the light is so strong.
  • KILLING HAN - He says he needs Han's help to do what he must (alleged fakeout, since we hope he means 'turn back' when he seems to mean 'turn worse')... what if he knows he must kill his father to keep his cover, but cannot do it without help?
    • What if Han knew that Luke had sent Kylo in.... but Leia doesn't? That could explain Han's fatalism at the end, his reasonably pathetic attempt at coversion and also allow his death to be more noble and self-sacrificing. (c.f. Snape kills Dumbledore)
  • BATTLING FINN and REY - Kylo here a) doesn't want to kill them and b) wants to encourage Rey to reach her potential.
    • This also adds more weight to Kylo wanting Rey to join him (and overthrow Snoke/order), explains why he took his helmet off (and the flicker of recognition some see in Rey) and also might allow for why he just leaves Daniel Craig to guard her...he wants her to feel the Force and escape.


Any agreement?!
I don't think Han or Chewie would agree w/ that.

Also... Han knew where Kylo was in all that. Sooooooooooooo... why wait for so long?

Last edited by Solid Snake; 12-29-15 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 12-29-15, 11:17 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Regarding issues of the planets being too Earth-like, you could really say the same about the Original Trilogy too. Tatooine, Hoth, and Endor all had pretty similar landscapes to what would be found on Earth. Even Dagobah really isn't all that unique as from what we see its just a swamp planet. We'll probably see more planets in the future but I guess I don't see an issue with that.

Last edited by Mike86; 12-29-15 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 12-29-15, 11:36 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

I don't think there is any way this movie is viewed like the Phantom Menace. Phantom Menace revolved around a couple of characters that ended up getting killed. While the Kenobi/Anakin relationship should have perhaps meant more than anything else in the prequels it played no part in Phantom Menace. Force Awakens introduced new characters that people already care about while killing an old character. That alone will allow this movie to hold up. If Maul would have stuck around, Anakin was a little older and Kenobi/Anakin was more a focal point it would have had a chance.
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Old 12-29-15, 11:49 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

That plot hole article linked a few posts above could be one of the worst movie critiques I have ever read. Many of those aren't even plot holes, many are likely to be explained in sequels, and many were explained in this movie!

"How did the rathars escape?" really?!?! Did he watch the movie?

Can't believe I read that whole thing.
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Old 12-29-15, 11:51 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by BrewCrew View Post
I don't think there is any way this movie is viewed like the Phantom Menace. Phantom Menace revolved around a couple of characters that ended up getting killed. While the Kenobi/Anakin relationship should have perhaps meant more than anything else in the prequels it played no part in Phantom Menace. Force Awakens introduced new characters that people already care about while killing an old character. That alone will allow this movie to hold up. If Maul would have stuck around, Anakin was a little older and Kenobi/Anakin was more a focal point it would have had a chance.
Oh you mean like actually establishing this friendship that we heard about? There was maybe a brief 5 minute period in Clones that showed me that those 2 were actually friends. We didn't see in in TPM and we barely saw it at the beginning of Revenge. Instead we got a whole movie devoted to a boy that no one cared about and in the end meant little to the rest of the saga.
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Old 12-29-15, 11:56 AM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

I had some problems with the movie, but there's no way it comes close to being viewed the way Phantom Menace was. The problems with that movie are much more apparent. I do think some of the initial hype will wear down; I know people are saying they enjoy it even more on repeat viewings at the moment, but I think there's still an air of excitement that's easy to get caught up in.
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Old 12-29-15, 12:03 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by thebunk View Post

- The story is too unoriginal and has too many plot holes which I am not going to bother re-posting (a good summary is here though full disclosure, some of these are reaching http://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-a...b_8850324.html).
.
I only got through 10 or so before I really questioned whether the writer has any idea what the term "plot hole" means. When I got to 13 I knew he had no idea what it meant.
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Old 12-29-15, 12:05 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by RichC2 View Post
The first three presented the ridiculous in a more visually grounded manner, in Crystal Skull everything came off as painfully cartoony.

The nuking of the fridge never bothered me that much though, the rest of the movie just seemed really disjointed. It also doesn't help that most of the scenes look like they were shot on massive, empty sound stages.
Sounds stages and CGI. Two things that don't go with Indiana Jones. It gave the film a cheap look. I think that's underlying problem with it, not the hokey or silly stuff.

Originally Posted by Bandoman View Post
I'm guessing that's where Snoke comes in. We don't yet know anything about how or why Kylo Ren turned to the Dark Side.
Can't wait for the prequel to flesh out his story!
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Old 12-29-15, 12:22 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

TPM could almost be viewed as a distant EU novel at this point and that is why TFA will never be re-evaluated to being that bad. TFA has its flaws but atleast it sets up the characters, and the same characters will be playing them throughout the trilogy.

AOTC had to essentially re-setup the Prequels starting with Anakin (Hayden Christenson) as the Jake Lloyd character didn't have much to do then being discovered and flying around in space and luckily taking out the droid ship.

Padme is an utter bore in the movie, as you're not even supposed to know its her till she reveals herself til the end of the movie. No interaction with Kenobi, and very little interaction with Anakin, so Lucas had to re-setup the Anakin/Padme dynamic in AOTC.

Kenobi gets secondary duties in TPM. I will never understand why Lucas invented QuiGon when Obiwan should have been that part and atleast the main star of Episode 1. Again, Lucas has to re-setup the Obiwan/Anakin friendship in AOTC/ROTS to show some friendship between them.

As much as I disdain AOTC & ROTS, atleast they're relevant to the story Lucas was trying to tell and the characters in it actually have an impact on the Trilogy and the Saga. You could honestly show someone Episodes 2 & 3 and I don't think they would miss anything from the Prequels.

Last edited by coli; 12-29-15 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 12-29-15, 01:07 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by ntnon View Post
I'm musing on a theory about Kylo Ren. Perhaps...

Spoiler:
He's actually a HERO. Masquerading as a pawn o Snoke to bring him down from the inside. (Like Luke in the comics series.. Dark Empire?) Echoing such real and fictional actions as deepcover agents, Severus Snape and Jon Snow.


Potential supporting evidence and/or possibilities:

Spoiler:
  • MASKS and Knights - The Knights of Ren massacred the Jedi school (we think), wearing masks. And a) we haven't seen them since (did they all survive), b) could have been anyone behind their masks, leading to c) it need not have originally been Kylo behind the mask...
    • Extrapolating wildly from this vague theory, that could be when Luke sends Kylo in place of the head of the Ren to infiltrate Snoke/order. Which also could suggest:
    • Not everyone/anyone was in fact killed - there could be others hiding with Luke.
  • TANTRUMS - Perhaps part of Ben Solo's actions are the result of his being youthful, part rebellion, but also partly the strain of deep cover and even... playing the part of a villain.
    • Talking to Vader then becomes doubly meaningful - he may be seeking guidance for RESISTING as much as being evil.
    • Talking about the pull of the light may be less that he feels himself being pulled from evil but that he's having a hard time acting his part because the light is so strong.
  • KILLING HAN - He says he needs Han's help to do what he must (alleged fakeout, since we hope he means 'turn back' when he seems to mean 'turn worse')... what if he knows he must kill his father to keep his cover, but cannot do it without help?
    • What if Han knew that Luke had sent Kylo in.... but Leia doesn't? That could explain Han's fatalism at the end, his reasonably pathetic attempt at coversion and also allow his death to be more noble and self-sacrificing. (c.f. Snape kills Dumbledore)
  • BATTLING FINN and REY - Kylo here a) doesn't want to kill them and b) wants to encourage Rey to reach her potential.
    • This also adds more weight to Kylo wanting Rey to join him (and overthrow Snoke/order), explains why he took his helmet off (and the flicker of recognition some see in Rey) and also might allow for why he just leaves Daniel Craig to guard her...he wants her to feel the Force and escape.


Any agreement?!
I don't see any other way that this new trilogy ends without Kylo being truly bad now and being turned back to the light side at the end of the third film. I think it'll play out much like Vader in the original trilogy with the exception that he will not die after he redeems himself.
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Old 12-29-15, 01:19 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by redcon1 View Post
My daughter wondered vaguelly if she could be

Spoiler:
Luke's younger sister, i.e. Vader fathered another child at some point, (and given the timeframe it would really need to be IVF or somesuch) and that's their relationship.


Seems about as implausible as the above theory..!
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Old 12-29-15, 01:25 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by ntnon View Post
My daughter wondered vaguelly if she could be

Spoiler:
Luke's younger sister, i.e. Vader fathered another child at some point, (and given the timeframe it would really need to be IVF or somesuch) and that's their relationship.


Seems about as implausible as the above theory..!


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Old 12-29-15, 01:39 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by ntnon View Post
Here's a potential problem - where would he have HEARD about Vader..? Fair enough, history books would tell of the black suited villain who killed people and fought the rebels. But... his mother and teacher would surely tell of their father who redeemed himself at the end of his life and toppled the Emperor. Even history would surely record that Vader was seduced to the Dark Side and/or turned villain because of extreme hardship in his lofe, but a) WAS DEFEATED and b) SWITCHED SIDES BEFORE HE DIED.

Who idolizes a villain who failed AND changed sides?
I doubt history would have been kind to Vader, regardless of what Luke and Leia thought or had to say. Certainly to most people in the galaxy (probably including Kylo's own dad), he'd be remembered as the genocidal maniac that slaughtered schools full of children and was an instrumental in the destruction of an entire planet, etc. To many, tales of him turning on the Emperor would probably be viewed as either rebel propaganda or obfuscated enough that his motives would be unclear. We know why he did it because we were there, but if you were just some factory worker in Cloud City and had maybe seen him come threw that one time, you might think it was a power play that had gone wrong, or whatever.

What Kylo would have learned and "known" about Vader is probably very different than what Leia and Luke would have tried to teach him, especially with Snoke somehow in the picture.
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Old 12-29-15, 01:47 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by coli View Post
You could honestly show someone Episodes 2 & 3 and I don't think they would miss anything from the Prequels.
Um, the japor snippet?!?!?!?! That's the linchpin to the whole prequel trilogy!
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Old 12-29-15, 01:54 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Timber View Post
I only got through 10 or so before I really questioned whether the writer has any idea what the term "plot hole" means. When I got to 13 I knew he had no idea what it meant.
No I agree which is why I prefaced that the guy was reaching and there may not be 40 true plot holes (or ones that were really noteworthy) but there are several that I agree with (Ie Poe missing on Jakku only to say "Hey Finn, what's up" later on).
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Old 12-29-15, 01:57 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux View Post
That plot hole article linked a few posts above could be one of the worst movie critiques I have ever read. Many of those aren't even plot holes, many are likely to be explained in sequels, and many were explained in this movie!

"How did the rathars escape?" really?!?! Did he watch the movie?

Can't believe I read that whole thing.
Like I just stated (and prefaced before the link) a lot of the examples are click bait. But the whole idea that many of these plot holes will be examined in later films right away shows the difference of this vs. A New Hope which is a stand alone movie. Also, JJ was involved in a little tv series called Lost which had a number of un answered questions which many thought/hoped would be resolved down the road....
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Old 12-29-15, 02:00 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by atxbomber View Post
I doubt history would have been kind to Vader, regardless of what Luke and Leia thought or had to say. Certainly to most people in the galaxy (probably including Kylo's own dad), he'd be remembered as the genocidal maniac that slaughtered schools full of children and was an instrumental in the destruction of an entire planet, etc. To many, tales of him turning on the Emperor would probably be viewed as either rebel propaganda or obfuscated enough that his motives would be unclear. We know why he did it because we were there, but if you were just some factory worker in Cloud City and had maybe seen him come threw that one time, you might think it was a power play that had gone wrong, or whatever.

What Kylo would have learned and "known" about Vader is probably very different than what Leia and Luke would have tried to teach him, especially with Snoke somehow in the picture.
Yeah. Vader redeemed himself at the end but he was still a powerful leader for the Empire for a long period of time and only Luke saw him redeem himself first hand. He probably told Leia and Han and company but to the majority of people I would bet Vader was probably still viewed as evil. Even if they heard of him killing the Emperor and somewhat redeeming himself it doesn't wash away everything that he did while he was one of the leaders of the Empire.
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Old 12-29-15, 02:03 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

I can't see them going the redemption route with Kylo Ren. I mean, he just killed off arguably the most popular character in ALL of Star Wars. No matter what he does, he's always going to be the emo dick that killed off Han fucking Solo. If they try to make him a good guy in Ep8 or 9 I'm going to be pissed.
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Old 12-29-15, 02:18 PM
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Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Abrams, 2015) The Reviews Thread

Have the day off, saw it on my own today. Specifically went to a 2D showing and I liked it. I really can't think of anything I missed, in terms of the 3D, plus it's just so much brighter. This time around, I tried to listen closely for the music so when I listen to the soundtrack I can try to picture what's going on in the film. That's part of what helps make the other soundtracks work all these years later - I know those scenes by heart. I'd say there are less new themes that really stand out, and maybe that's because the music stays really close to the action instead of going off and doing its own fanfare thing. The scenes with BB8 and Rey had a sort of whimsy, and a lot of the rest of the soundtrack sounds almost morose, sullen. And, oddly, a bunch of it strikes me as more of an Indiana Jones vibe than Star Wars.

Originally Posted by ntnon View Post
1. TPM is about a boy being told he must leave his home and be the focal point of a crumbling order, surrounded by the political shifts towards a new system of governance.
2. AOTC is about a young man and his friends learning the truth about what this shift in political leadership really means - a merciless raising of the stakes.
3. ROTS is about a young man wrestling with finding his place in an uncertain universe and making the wrong choices for what seem like the right reasons, against a backdrop of his friends and allies also taking wrong paths for what seem like the right reasons, surrounded by the beginning of the Empire.

Easy.
Yay, I'm just so happy that someone has interacted with my gigantic post! That said, I can't quite tell if you're giving me something new to think about or if you're agreeing with me.

Originally Posted by ntnon View Post
I'm musing on a theory about Kylo Ren. Perhaps...

Spoiler:
He's actually a HERO. Masquerading as a pawn o Snoke to bring him down from the inside. (Like Luke in the comics series.. Dark Empire?) Echoing such real and fictional actions as deepcover agents, Severus Snape and Jon Snow.


Potential supporting evidence and/or possibilities:

Spoiler:
  • MASKS and Knights - The Knights of Ren massacred the Jedi school (we think), wearing masks. And a) we haven't seen them since (did they all survive), b) could have been anyone behind their masks, leading to c) it need not have originally been Kylo behind the mask...
    • Extrapolating wildly from this vague theory, that could be when Luke sends Kylo in place of the head of the Ren to infiltrate Snoke/order. Which also could suggest:
    • Not everyone/anyone was in fact killed - there could be others hiding with Luke.
  • TANTRUMS - Perhaps part of Ben Solo's actions are the result of his being youthful, part rebellion, but also partly the strain of deep cover and even... playing the part of a villain.
    • Talking to Vader then becomes doubly meaningful - he may be seeking guidance for RESISTING as much as being evil.
    • Talking about the pull of the light may be less that he feels himself being pulled from evil but that he's having a hard time acting his part because the light is so strong.
  • KILLING HAN - He says he needs Han's help to do what he must (alleged fakeout, since we hope he means 'turn back' when he seems to mean 'turn worse')... what if he knows he must kill his father to keep his cover, but cannot do it without help?
    • What if Han knew that Luke had sent Kylo in.... but Leia doesn't? That could explain Han's fatalism at the end, his reasonably pathetic attempt at coversion and also allow his death to be more noble and self-sacrificing. (c.f. Snape kills Dumbledore)
  • BATTLING FINN and REY - Kylo here a) doesn't want to kill them and b) wants to encourage Rey to reach her potential.
    • This also adds more weight to Kylo wanting Rey to join him (and overthrow Snoke/order), explains why he took his helmet off (and the flicker of recognition some see in Rey) and also might allow for why he just leaves Daniel Craig to guard her...he wants her to feel the Force and escape.


Any agreement?!
I think Kylo Ren going as far as he did would break this theory for me. I know we've had heroes have to do some terrible things in order to not blow their cover before, but I'm not sure if that's the case here. If anything, I think there's a path for redemption in his future, though I'm not sure he'll get out of this trilogy alive, either. As for encouraging Rey, like I said in my original post, I think this is an impatient student desperate to be seen as the respected teacher and making a power grab more than trying to help her reach her potential.
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