Josh-da-man

Well, obviously your reasons for disliking the movie don't fit in the expectations of the fans of the movie for the reasons they think you should dislike it.

DaveyJoe

Not sure you want to make bets on which side has more hostility. People who enjoyed TLJ didn't bully Kelly Tran off of Twitter.

Mike86

coli

Jay G.

I don't think asking questions of your stated opinion or pointing out contradictions in your reasoning count as "attacking" you. At best, they're attacking your opinions, which you keep repeating. Your opinions are your own and you aren't wrong to have them, but if you keep repeatedly voicing them, you're going to keep getting people responding to them and challenging them. Nobody's saying you can't hold those opinions, but you don't have a right to repeat them unchallenged either.

BTW, the last time you brought up Luke in TLJ, I reasoned through all your explanations for why you didn't like it, and your response was:
You don't have a rational explanation for why you had the emotional response that you did. Every time you say something like "they didn't do X," it's pointed out that X actually was done, and then you respond "well, I still don't like it, stop attacking me!" Sometimes our responses aren't fully rational, but I think you have to acknowledge that, instead of trying to give reasons that aren't actually true.

Jay G.

You're trying to lump all the TLJ likers into simple derogatory caricatures. Do you now see the hypocrisy in your own actions?

DaveyJoe

Is that not an example of TLJ detractors showing open hostility?

Mike86

Josh-da-man

I suspect that KMT was chased off of social media by one particular alt-right troll and his followers who have a history of harassing women in genre entertainment. It certainly fits within a pattern of behavior with his person, and he does seem to have an irrational hatred of Tran (and not just the character she plays).

Draven

coli

brayzie

I meant in regards to the quality and story of TLJ in comparison to ROTJ. I agree with the criticism of the recycling.

[george lucas]It's like poetry. It rhymes.[/george lucas]

I feel the same way. After all this time I would have expected these new films to surpass the originals and have a stronger evolution of ideas and visuals. That didn't happen with ROTJ or the PT because Lucas was more concerned with how it affected his merchandising empire, and it's definitely not going to happen now that Disney owns the property.

Also, I don't agree with people excusing the flaws in the Disney Star Wars films by citing the worst of ROTJ and the prequels. That's a pretty low bar. However, I don't think that the quality of the Disney ST is inconsistent with the OT. By the time of ROTJ we were seeing things getting recycled.

Jay G.

I don't know why this needs to be explicitly stated, but I'll do it: when I say your opinion is poorly reasoned, that's just my opinion. I'm not trying to "invalidate" your opinion, I have no such authority, but stating my view and reasoning of my opinion, and arguing where I feel your reasoning fails.

Meanwhile, you consistently concede my reasoning:
But don't change your opinion.

And if I've challenged your reasoning more than once, it's because you've brought it up more than once. There's no limit on how many times people can challenge your opinion when you keep publicly voicing it. And new people don't have to research old challenges to your opinions when you bring them up again. That's not you being attacked, that's what happens when you keep repeatedly voicing opinions in a public forum that other members may disagree with.

Draven

Mike86

The problem I oftentimes find with you is how you state things. You don't say it in a way where it's conversational. It more comes across like you feel your opinion is right, mine is wrong, and here's why. It basically doesn't matter what I say because no matter what there's always a way you'll counter me. It would be one thing if it was a more civil exchange with both of us trying to see the other side, which I've tried doing, but with you it always comes off like I'm being talked down to for having an opinion different than yours.

I concede at times if I'm tired of arguing with you or maybe trying to give you some credit for feeling the way you do even if I don't personally agree with your opinions. Something you never do and always just tell me why how I feel is wrong. Again, a lot of it boils down to your tone and attitude.

Jay G.

No, he didn't like the PT for specific reasons, as he's stated, and has likely defended over the years.

I've done similar. Here's me arguing about the SEs of the OT (it goes on for several posts).
https://forum.dvdtalk.com/hd-talk/57...l#post10324053

And later in the thread, I argue about the PT for several posts:
https://forum.dvdtalk.com/hd-talk/57...l#post10400438

If you voice an opinion, expect the possibility of disagreement. When it happens, you can either defend your opinion, or you can drop the discussion. Whining about the fact that people who disagree with you are daring to do so just comes of as an immature attempt to try and shut out anything that doesn't fit your own worldview.

And the complaints about the ST that are getting challenged aren't necessary "I didn't like the treatment of Luke," but "I didn't like the treatment of Luke because of X," except X is incorrect. "Luke didn't help out or have a final showdown." "Actually, he did." "Stop criticizing my opinions!"

Jay G.

Yes, that's how disagreements can sometimes be voiced. I'm not here to (necessarily) be your friend, but voice my opinions and challenge ones I disagree with.

Maybe it feels that way to you, but if you provide a valid point, I'll concede it. I've done so in the past, although maybe not to you, since you often drop any defense of your reasoning, which doesn't allow for any middle ground to be reached.

I pointed out specifically where you've conceded my reasoning, not my feelings. I've repeatedly conceded your feelings while still pointing out flaws in your reasoning.

tanman

I'm not entirely sure but didn't Snyder leave JL because of the tragic death of his daughter? And didn't they use what he already shot and basically brought Whedon in to finish it.

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/166...justice-league

Apparently so, and not only that he was working with Snyder before his departure. Totally different reasons. I will concede that it is easy to say with the benefit of hindsight and producing is not an easy thing to do. But still the captain goes down with the ship and ultimately, fair or not, KK gets the blame (and to her credit has taken the blame) for Solo.


Ok I guess, it's just semantics on if they are surprise successes even though that's a very subjective term I'll let you have that they could be called expected successes. No one even brought up a comparison to the other Marvel films. The only reason why Ant-Man was brought up was to show the difference in handling a difficult situation and the difference in success between Ant-Man and Solo. But we can at least agree that they were successes. And yes I did compare two films to Solo's...well solo outing. And it's not artificially inflating the difference. Because call them expected successes if you want but they didn't greenlight the sequel for Ant-Man until after the first one came out. You really think with these movies they're not counting on them becoming franchises with multiple sequels? So yes comparatively Ant-Man spawned a sequel and the both of them ended up with over a billion at the BO. Whereas Solo was so obviously written as a franchise starter petered out at the BO so that it's sequel will likely not be greenlit. It's failure wasn't just in it's BO but that it performed SO poorly that Lucasfilm had to rethink ALL of their Star Wars films. So yeah it's a fair comparison. Ant-Man started a billion dollar franchise, Solo killed one.

tanman

I thought this was very very sad and an example of the day and age we live in now. I love coming on this forum and arguing back and forth the merit of different aspects of movies. But to attack a person just because of the job that they did especially when it wasn't something that was really their choice.

I hope that's the case. Unfortunately with social media it only takes a handful of people to do something like that.

It really made me happy that she had such a huge applause at Star Wars Celebration. Restored my faith in the Star Wars fans a bit. I guarantee you not everyone loved her character but they sure showed their appreciation of her as an actress and human being.

Gunde

Or even something that matters one bit ...

Brack

Jay G.

That's the official story, yes. However, your original post didn't specify that the original director was fired, just that they were replaced, which led to a change in story and tone, which happened.

Joss Whedon got a screenwriting credit, which means he contributed at least to 33% of the final script.
https://www.indiewire.com/2017/11/ju...on-1201898421/
https://www.express.co.uk/entertainm...ories-spoilers
Even just having control of the edit can have a significant impact on the film, which is how we got the concept of "director's cut" in the first place.

At least you admit blaming solely Kathleen Kennedy is unfair.

It's not so much the statements like "Kathleen Kennedy has a failure with Solo," that get me so much as the ones that claim "Solo bombed, so Kathleen Kennedy is a bad producer, Lucasfilm is leaderless, Disney is on the verge of firing her any day now, etc." Sure, Solo didn't do well, but she also shepherded in 3 films that did over $1 billion worldwide.

Why wouldn't Marvel or others use the performance of their previous films to build their expectation of Ant-Man's performance?

And if Solo had done better, they might've greenlit a sequel to that. The decision of a sequel was based on the performance of the first film, in both cases. You don't compared the relative success of individual films based on the entirety of a franchise that may or may not exist. I mean, otherwise why not compare Ant-Man to the entire Skywalker Saga? Or just episodes 7 & 8, which Kathleen also produced?

This line seems poorly written, since it implies that each film broke a billion, which didn't happen for either. You should've stated that it was the BO of the two films combined that broke a billion.

While Solo appears to have put a halt on the spin-off standalones, for now, It's not clear if Solo impacted TRoS at all.

Decker

I keep checking this thread hoping for some new info or pictures from this movie but all I ever get is a vocal few bitching about TLJ. Is there any way we can keep that well-worn discussion in the TLJ review thread instead?

Rob V

^^ Word!

DaveyJoe

I wonder if The Dark Knight Rises thread had discussion on The Dark Knight in it.