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Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

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Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

Old 05-04-15, 06:36 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by DVD Josh View Post
Pay attention better. Because of what Joey said - IM3 ends with Tony destroying all of his suits and swearing off IM tech yet here is in A2 with zero explanation with a brand new suit with new abilities (sentry mode), an army of robotic Iron Men, new tech (Hulk Buster), and seems to be back in total Iron Man mode. That is not congruent at all with what happens at the end of IM3.

At best, it is a massive retcon. At best.
Pay attention better. Tony Stark never said he was swearing off Iron Man tech. What he learns in the film is that he doesn't need a suit (or an army of suits) to be Iron Man. He is Iron Man because of his innate qualities, not because of his tech. However, his tech allows him to do what he needs to do to protect the world and the people he cares about. So it makes complete sense that he'd still be wearing IM suits when he's in firefights. He just isn't obsessing over it and making endless suits in an attempt to escape the realities of his own mental state.

No retcon necessary.
Old 05-04-15, 07:25 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

“The dreams were not an executive favorite either. The dreams, the farmhouse, these were the things I fought to keep...With the cave [sequence with Thor and Erik Selvig], it really turned into: they pointed a gun to the farm’s head. They said, ‘give us the cave or we’ll take out the farm.’”
The execs can't be this stupid, can they? The farmhouse stuff was great, and added the only heart/humanity the movie had. The cave scene was unnecessary and just flat out dumb.

I did read somewhere that Whedon did take out a major Hulk scene that would've played as huge as his Loki smash, but he took it out for story/pacing/whatever reason. But it won't show up as a delete scene or anything, since I guess it was so good, they're going to re-jigger it and use it in another movie later.
Old 05-04-15, 07:35 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

The farmhouse was excellent, but both the cave and the dreams weren't done particularly well. I don't know, seems like a push
Old 05-04-15, 07:40 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Solid Snake View Post
You just linked to something that had no information to the BW bit. Mad about what? She doesn't fuck enough? Doesn't have an accent? Isn't thin enough?
They are pissed about her back story and not being able to have kids. It makes her "weak" and that she is portrayed as a monster since she can't have kids.

Yawn.


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Old 05-04-15, 07:46 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

The farmhouse was excellent? I don't know, making Hawkeye family man extraordinaire felt off to me.
Old 05-04-15, 07:59 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

Off from the comics, sure. But it did add nice character to him. I thought it was good. I didn't want him to be a family guy but it works for me. I thought it was good stuff.
Old 05-04-15, 08:03 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

I liked the farmhouse stuff and revealing that Clint has a family I guess. It was a surprising but yet at the same time prior to this film we haven't really gotten much of his backstory to know any different and there wasn't a reason he'd have brought them up in the past. Plus he's been married and had kids in the comics so it was true to that part of his character.
Old 05-04-15, 08:06 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

It slowed the film to a halt. The only reason it's in there was so Whedon could telegraph Hawkeye's "death", which never happened. It was a set-up for a joke at the end, and not much more. I don't care if this guy has kids; why don't you flesh out Ultron more instead of letting us know Clint has to retile the bathroom?
Old 05-04-15, 08:15 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

While Ultron definitely should have been fleshed out, I wouldn't sacrifice the Hawkeye stuff to do so; I'd sacrifice the Hulk/Widow romance before that if we're cutting time. I recall criticism of Hawkeye in the first movie being one of the main complaints, so i'm glad to see the character developed here and I like the slower character moments in a movie like this between all the action. It made his pep talk to Scarlet Witch at the end more relatable too as just a guy with a bow and arrow. Can't please everyone
Old 05-04-15, 08:16 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Mike86 View Post
I liked the farmhouse stuff and revealing that Clint has a family I guess. It was a surprising but yet at the same time prior to this film we haven't really gotten much of his backstory to know any different and there wasn't a reason he'd have brought them up in the past. Plus he's been married and had kids in the comics so it was true to that part of his character.
Does he have kids in the mainstream universe? Ultimate Hawkeye is married (to Laura Barton, the same character played by Linda Cardellini in the film) and has 3 kids, so that's likely where the inspiration comes from. The version of Hawkeye we have in the MCU bears a stronger resemblance to the Ultimate version than the 616 version anyway.
Old 05-04-15, 08:26 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

616 Barton doesn't have kids. And he's typically paired w/ Bobbi Morse, aka Mockingbird.
Old 05-04-15, 08:29 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Solid Snake View Post
616 Barton doesn't have kids. And he's typically paired w/ Bobbi Morse, aka Mockingbird.
That's what I thought.
Old 05-04-15, 08:56 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Solid Snake View Post
Off from the comics, sure. But it did add nice character to him. I thought it was good. I didn't want him to be a family guy but it works for me. I thought it was good stuff.
I didn't mean off from the comics, because I'm fine with deviations from the comics if they work (such as The Mandarin), but this felt off from a character perspective. I just didn't buy Hawkeye as this stand up family man. The film didn't sell it, even though it tried really fucking hard to sell it.

Originally Posted by islandclaws View Post
It slowed the film to a halt. The only reason it's in there was so Whedon could telegraph Hawkeye's "death", which never happened. It was a set-up for a joke at the end, and not much more. I don't care if this guy has kids; why don't you flesh out Ultron more instead of letting us know Clint has to retile the bathroom?
I agree, it's this odd slump right in the middle of the movie where nothing of consequence happens, and nothing comes of it later either. And yet Whedon fought to keep it in the film. Why?
Old 05-04-15, 09:42 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
I didn't mean off from the comics, because I'm fine with deviations from the comics if they work (such as The Mandarin), but this felt off from a character perspective. I just didn't buy Hawkeye as this stand up family man. The film didn't sell it, even though it tried really fucking hard to sell it.



I agree, it's this odd slump right in the middle of the movie where nothing of consequence happens, and nothing comes of it later either. And yet Whedon fought to keep it in the film. Why?
I kinda felt like i had an absence seizure during part of this flick with all the "hawkeye was the heart of the movie" stuff going on. I got none of that walking out.
Old 05-04-15, 11:47 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
I didn't mean off from the comics, because I'm fine with deviations from the comics if they work (such as The Mandarin), but this felt off from a character perspective. I just didn't buy Hawkeye as this stand up family man. The film didn't sell it, even though it tried really fucking hard to sell it.

I agree, it's this odd slump right in the middle of the movie where nothing of consequence happens, and nothing comes of it later either. And yet Whedon fought to keep it in the film. Why?
Well, I think that it's perfectly fair to debate how *well* the "Hawkeye as a family man" was sold, but I think that most people miss the point of the scenes. You're having multiple Avengers (temporarily) exit the team. You don't have the running time to go into the complexities of why everyone is leaving individually. So you heavily invest in the motivations of one of them. It's a shortcut way of saying that even the Avengers have a life outside of the heat of battle. It worked for me, but I can see it not working for others.
Old 05-05-15, 12:05 AM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

Except they went into the motivations of two other Avengers for leaving, and Stark basically said, "My contract on these films is running short. See you in Civil War!"
Old 05-05-15, 12:19 AM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
Except they went into the motivations of two other Avengers for leaving, and Stark basically said, "My contract on these films is running short. See you in Civil War!"
Well, they brush upon them. That's the point. If they mentioned *nothing* about why Tony or Bruce was leaving, it would be frustrating. If they went in depth, it would take too much time. As it is, it's a balancing act, and so it will be up to the viewer if it was frustrating or fulfilling. I'm very much not saying that you're wrong for feeling like you do.

Last edited by stp115; 05-05-15 at 12:24 AM.
Old 05-05-15, 02:43 AM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

Saw it in LIEMAX 3D today. Perhaps not as good of a film as the first, but much more fun. An outright comedy, as well. So many laugh out loud moments, and the humor worked (including the slightly "off color" jokes). I really liked Whedon's writing in this more than in any thing I've ever seen from him. People talked like people actually talk, and several moments that you thought were about to be action film cliches got turned on their heads. Very refreshing.

One thing I noticed from reading the other reviews is how hit or miss theater experiences are these days. I got really lucky as our showing was in 3D that was nice and bright with no audio problems at all. Once again reinforces my decision to wait for blu-ray on most releases. And this will be a fun blu-ray, for sure.
Old 05-05-15, 06:07 AM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

As much as I really think Iron Man 2 deserves a better rating but has yet to achieve that, this movie will definitely get a better rating over time. There were too many lines that would play out well in a comic book because you can linger as opposed to being forced to the next scene. I thought Ultron was a blast, I loved the way he was portrayed as a hissy fit kid and he had some great bits, like the "little ones... children that's the word" or the arm-chop bit where he's semi-sarcastic about it hurting. That's the biggest disconnect I have between the reviews and where the movie is at for me because it really was a highlight.

I do agree that the story needed to be fleshed out more, this should have been about twenty to thirty minutes longer. I think they should have explained Ultron's origin in a better way and given the Twins more time to develop with the team, especially The Vision and Wanda. I am curious to see if Ant Man has any threads about Ultron because the whole "We could make Ultron now" seemed to come out of left-field.
Old 05-05-15, 09:50 AM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

So the farm scene and the cave/pool scene that everyone is complaining about...Marvel wanted one and Joss wanted the other.

According to Whedon, Marvel was not fond of the act two breather wherein the team takes refuge at Hawkeye's farm; on the other hand, the studio was "quite adamant" about adding in the scenes wherein Thor and Dr. Selvig visit a mystical Norse cave pool.

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Old 05-05-15, 10:14 AM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

That was posted earlier, which is why we're discussing it now
Old 05-05-15, 10:43 AM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

Here's a pretty thoughtful write-up on the movie's themes, which makes me like the movie a little more.


[length]
Spoiler:

Avengers: Age of Ultron is about consequences and legacies. The film, from beginning to end, is about dealing with what you have done and trying to understand what you will leave behind. Every major character arc and the film’s entire thematic structure is about this, and it’s the key to understanding the Tony Stark/Ultron/Vision relationship.

The film begins with The Avengers cleaning up after themselves; they’re in the middle of a fight with a holdout Hydra base, confronting the evil organization that had rotted out SHIELD from the core. The mission: to reclaim Loki’s scepter, which they had allowed to get away during the Battle of New York in the first film. Yeah, this is basic continuity stuff, the kind of connected storytelling that comic fans eat up, but it’s also a major early thematic bullet point. They're literally cleaning up after themselves.

Within von Strucker’s base Tony Stark is trapped between his past - the giant Leviathan hanging from the ceiling - and his future, in the form of a vision from Wanda Maximoff. The movie plays coy with whether or not Wanda’s hex-induced visions are nightmares or true future events, but both Tony and Thor find them to be realistic enough that they take action on them.

For Tony the vision reveals his legacy: destruction. He stands above the corpses of all his friends, the only survivor. He believes this is the outcome of his current status as the benefactor of The Avengers, that for whatever reason everything he has done leads inexorably to destruction. This has been Tony’s character arc ever since he woke up in that cave in Afghanistan - he has been a man who has been constantly faced with the repercussions of his actions, from the Ten Rings to his PTSD and the anger of Aldrich Killian (with a pit stop in Iron Man 2 to deal with the consequences of his father’s actions). Tony Stark has learned one thing over the last few years: no matter how hard he tries he keeps fucking up, and that vision only confirms to him that this will continue.

But in indomitable Tony Stark style he doesn’t quit - he tries even harder. Which means he fucks up even bigger. Faced with a world where he has caused the deaths of everyone he knows, Tony overreacts and tries to create the ultimate protection tool for the world - Ultron. He envisions a suit of armor around the planet, and he hopes that this will be his legacy - a way to protect everybody from every threat coming from beyond (it’s important to remember that in his vision Tony saw The Avengers dead in space).

What he hoped to be his legacy instead becomes another consequence. Ultron immediately goes off the rails and begins planning to destroy not just The Avengers but also most of humanity. But it’s important to remember that Ultron isn’t just an AI run amok, he’s Tony Stark’s son. The relationship between Stark and Ultron is complex and fascinating; Ultron is trying to fulfill his father’s wishes, but in a way that his father cannot understand or condone - generational conflict lifted to an epic scale. Ultron is trying to prove his superiority to his father, to rebel and truly change the world, but he has Tony Stark inside of him - his father’s thoughts are present in his programming. Ultron slips Stark phrases into conversation, not even realizing how much of his digital DNA is printed with Stark code. He doesn’t want to be his dad, but in many ways he is. Many men with troubled relationships with their fathers will find this all-too recognizable.

Meanwhile, Tony Stark’s legacy impacts other characters. Wanda and Pietro Maximoff are who they are - willing test subjects of von Strucker - because of Tony Stark. Stark Industries munitions were used to destroy their homes; they spent days trapped in rubble looking at a Stark bomb that could have gone off at any moment. Despite his attempts to rehabilitate his name, the Stark legacy remains that of a weapons manufacturer.

And that legacy taints The Avengers. In Sokovia we see American dollar signs graffitied over images of The Avengers. Their connection to Stark and SHIELD position them as tools of American supremacy*, and having a guy named Captain America in charge certainly doesn’t help. While the Ultron business is about personal legacies, much of the larger thematics of Age of Ultron is about America finding itself in a world post-Vietnam and Iraq, a world where the nation that was once the liberator of Europe is now the imperialist warmonger. Cap skipping all of those years makes this all the more poignant, as he’s the living embodiment of what America once meant to the world, while Tony Stark defines what America has become.

The rehabilitation of SHIELD is a major part of the political thematics of the movie. In Captain America: The Winter Soldier SHIELD was revealed to be literally pointing guns at anyone it didn’t like or who it thought could be a problem. In Age of Ultron SHIELD returns as a rescue agency, ferrying civilians off the floating city. “This is what SHIELD should be,” Cap says, and by extension he’s saying this is what America should be. This should be our legacy - helping others, not killing them. Hope, not fear.

Everything in the movie works along the axes of personal and political consequence and legacy. It’s there when Thor has his vision of Asgard - he is told that he brought hell (or Hel?) to the realm, and that he is responsible for its destruction. It’s there when Hawkeye reveals his family and his movie-opening mortal wounding (and the jokes the other Avengers make about it) take on a new light. His role in The Avengers becomes clearer, as it’s obvious that he’s trying to leave a legacy for his children, to give them a better world. But he also has to deal with the potential consequences of his day job, which leads him to resign from the team when he has a third child.

It comes again in the creation of The Vision, Ultron’s legacy… and ultimately Tony Stark’s as well. While Stark created something that went terribly awry, it also led to the creation of a being who is unique, benevolent, powerful but full of grace. His speech at the end, as he confronts the final Ultron, is just as telling as his ability to lift Mjolnir. Yes, Ultron was a consequence, but in many ways he also led to Tony Stark’s ultimate legacy. From our ashes can rise something far greater.

The Vision also gives us the longview of generational struggle and the way our legacies are perceived through time; he opts to join his grandfather, flawed though he may be, and turn against his own creator. The cycle begins anew, but this time the turning wheel has revealed something hopeful and bright in the form of this new lifeform (how I wish they had called him a synthezoid in order to further delineate the idea that he is not a robot). In many ways The Vision is actually the culmination of Ultron’s plan, as he’s a new step in evolution, a being somewhere between human and machine. But he’s eventually Ultron’s doom, the true evolution that sees each of Ultron's minor body upgrades as exactly the kind of status quo service which Ultron accuses The Avengers of maintaining.

The themes of legacy and consequence truly inform the arcs of Black Widow and the Hulk. Bruce Banner lives in fear of a Code Green, and with good reason - the after action report on the Hydra base assault leaves him terrified that he killed people, and later in the movie he continues to tarnish The Avengers’ legacy by going wild in Johannesburg**. Banner himself is a consequence, a living reminder of the mistake he made, and a perpetually destructive force. So it makes sense that he finds himself drawn to the team’s other living consequence, Black Widow. Natasha Romanoff trained from a very young age - far too young to actually consent - to be a ruthless killer. As seen in Winter Soldier, Natasha doesn’t even have a solid sense of self-identity, thanks to the machinations of the instructors in the Red Room. She has spent her life hiding herself from others - first professionally, later because she has ‘red in her ledger’ - and it isn’t until she meets someone who is equally isolated that she can open herself up.

Pairing these two off is interesting from a character perspective - they really work, and I love how much more aggressive Natasha is than Bruce - but it also creates a thematic through line that pierces all the questions of legacy and consequence. Bruce Banner, an irradiated man whose genes are fucked, cannot impregnate a woman. Natasha Romanoff, a woman who was sterilized by her spymasters, cannot bear a child. While Tony Stark and Hawkeye have legacies that involve new life, while Captain America and Thor stand as the icons for their people and lead them into the future, Banner and Romanoff can only create a legacy through their immediate actions. For these two there is no day but today, and they can’t worry about what comes next. There will not be a child to carry on their work, there is not a nation to guide, and so the third act decisions they make - Natasha bringing Bruce back to the fight and Bruce (in Hulk form!) deciding to take himself away from everyone - are their legacies. They each make the decision to protect people, each in their own way.

At the film’s end The Avengers themselves leave a legacy - a new team. They deal with the consequences of their actions - their new base is in upstate New York, not right in the middle of crowded New York City. Wanda joining the team represents a change in the world’s view of these people, although everything isn’t hunky dory - we know Civil War is coming. One more consequence, because that is what life truly is - a series of consequences, one of which will one day be our legacy.

*this is one of the places where the vaguely international nature of MCU SHIELD gets in the way of clear metaphorical readings, a problem the original comics did not have.

**it’s incredibly important to note that Hulk is only defeated after he realizes that he is endangering innocents and begins to fall out of Wanda’s spell. Bruce can’t see it, but his true legacy is empathy.
Old 05-05-15, 10:45 AM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by gmanca View Post
As much as I really think Iron Man 2 deserves a better rating but has yet to achieve that, this movie will definitely get a better rating over time. There were too many lines that would play out well in a comic book because you can linger as opposed to being forced to the next scene. I thought Ultron was a blast, I loved the way he was portrayed as a hissy fit kid and he had some great bits, like the "little ones... children that's the word" or the arm-chop bit where he's semi-sarcastic about it hurting. That's the biggest disconnect I have between the reviews and where the movie is at for me because it really was a highlight.

I do agree that the story needed to be fleshed out more, this should have been about twenty to thirty minutes longer. I think they should have explained Ultron's origin in a better way and given the Twins more time to develop with the team, especially The Vision and Wanda. I am curious to see if Ant Man has any threads about Ultron because the whole "We could make Ultron now" seemed to come out of left-field.

Wow, strongly disagree. If this movie was not called the Avengers I think it would be getting panned pretty badly. It is is unfocused, confusing and boring with maybe the least threatening villain of all time. Of all the Marvel movies I think this will age the worst, as subsequent viewings would be very tedious. Possibly Marvel's worst. I think comic book overload is starting to set in. I think Marvel Phase 3 will start to have very diminishing returns. Just so little that is exceptional in Ultron, I have forgotten most of it I think.

On the pool vs. farm debate I think Marvel had it right. The farm was uber dull and added nothing in my view, yet Thor's storyline was a gaping hole in the plot, one of many.
Old 05-05-15, 10:47 AM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

I dunno. IM2 and The Incredible Hulk are pretty damn weak. Add in the Thor films aren't that hot either.

He's just not a good character when he's apart from everyone else, yet he has the most potential for the material his property has.
Old 05-05-15, 12:32 PM
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Re: Avengers: Age of Ultron (Whedon, 2015) — The Reviews Thread

Originally Posted by johnnysd View Post
Wow, strongly disagree. If this movie was not called the Avengers I think it would be getting panned pretty badly. It is is unfocused, confusing and boring with maybe the least threatening villain of all time. Of all the Marvel movies I think this will age the worst, as subsequent viewings would be very tedious. Possibly Marvel's worst. I think comic book overload is starting to set in. I think Marvel Phase 3 will start to have very diminishing returns. Just so little that is exceptional in Ultron, I have forgotten most of it I think.

On the pool vs. farm debate I think Marvel had it right. The farm was uber dull and added nothing in my view, yet Thor's storyline was a gaping hole in the plot, one of many.
A couple of us mentioned seeing it twice already, and feeling that it was better on a second viewing. No worries if you dislike it, but I think you're in the minority here Seems to be the case with a lot of the middle of the pack Marvel movies though, feelings seem to be all over the place on them.

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