B5Erik

OK, I don't get your point. I think the movie looks cool and that's bad? You took time out to go on a rant about it? WTF???

And who's downplaying anything???

I'm just saying that the movie looks really good and I'm excited about it for that reason. Crime of the freaking century!

I've been told all my life that I shouldn't see color, and now I'm being told I should see color? What?? What happened to judging based on content of character, not color of skin? That's how I've lived my life. How about judging by the quality of the movie, rather than the color of the actors (and/or director) involved?

I've been in favor of a Black Panther movie forever. I've always liked that character, going back to when I was a kid in the 70's. OF COURSE that means a predominantly black cast. So what? Is the movie any good?? That's the only question that counts.

If you're genuinely excited for a predominantly African American cast in a major Superhero movie, great! I hope the movie is a huge hit! But I don't give a shit who's in the movie if it sucks. Just like I don't give a shit about who's in a movie if it's great!

I missed the comments quoted above when you first posted them, and I really don't get the overtones of anger from that rant. No one was downplaying anything, just stating that the movie looks like it's going to stand on it's own merits. In other words, I do not believe this was pandering or a gimmick, but a desire to make a great comic book superhero movie that happened to feature an African American cast playing actual African characters. That's how it should be, right?

Giantrobo

Its not a crime. Not at all... However, the timing of your post was unfortunate though. It just seems like you did it to downplay Timber's point about the importance of this film from a cultural aspect. It's like if you would have posted saying you didn't care that a Woman was in a lead role after a woman posted that she was excited about Wonder Woman because of the strong female lead. See how that's kinda messed up?

Well, "not seeing color" is tricky. Yes, there are times when NSC is the thing to do. But there are in fact times when seeing color is a good thing. That said, no one was really asking you to see color in this film to be honest. But it's clear from your original post that you also don't see why Blacks would see color and why it's important to Us(Black People).

Yes you are excited. I don't want to downplay your excitement. I meant that. I know you're huge Marvel Fan. But just imagine, if you can, how excited Black Marvel fans must be.. Go on social media and you can see that this film is a big deal.

But it's NOT the only question that counts...FOR BLACKS. Having a good major release film AND having a predominantly Black Cast where the Hero is Black is a HUGELY IMPORTANT. Just like having a Female lead in Wonder Woman was important to women and little girls. That said, I get that a white male would have a hard time seeing why either of those would be a big deal.

Again, who asked you to give a shit? NO ONE.

Timber was expressing HIS cultural excitement over the film and you proceeded to downplay it by posting your "look at ME everyone! i don't see color!!" rant. Also, I know it's hard for Non-POC to understand but we don't have the luxury of not caring about these things. Getting films like this is RARE. Black/African A-list Superhero, a technologically advanced African Nation portrayed in a way that's not a war torn corrupt hell hole, Black Women in powerful positions, etc..

Wow...

And you have in the past accused films and shows of "pandering" when people of color or women were cast. So your lack of understanding here is just par for the course unfortunately. I hope you can understand why I would respond to your "Look at me! I don't see color!" rant with a counter rant...

This is how you sound and look:

devilshalo

So changing established characters ethnicities is ok? Is that what that 'toon is supposed to be saying? I don't get that. I understand the industry should be creating/writing new and diverse characters or bringing established diverse characters to the screen.

A friend got his kids the two Asian rebel sisters from TLJ as Christmas gits and commented that he never had toys that looked like him. Now they're represented in the Star Wars universe. I thought back to when I was their age, and I found I never thought twice about Luke or Han not looking like me. It didn't stop me from dreaming of being either one. Maybe it made no difference because I also grew up having Asian cinema and looking up to Fu Sheng and Gordon Liu and Bruce Lee and thinking, yeah, my culture can kick your culture's ass.

B5Erik

Wow. Your responses to my posts are disappointing, to say the least.

Why are you assuming the worst? Take my posts and read them outside of this thread and there's no problem, is there? I would hope not since all I'm doing is raving about how good this movie looks and how excited I am to see it!

You are criticizing me for things I never said or meant. You're assuming the worst, and not even trying to understand what I'm saying.

Guess what? Black Panther isn't going to be an anomaly. It will become more and more common. It's going to happen - actors/characters of color in lead roles. It is happening, and that's great! The process is just starting to pick up steam.

People are people, man. Ethnicity shouldn't matter, and in the movies it won't matter. Yes, that is worth celebrating, but the most important thing is to make sure the movies are good so this process isn't slowed down by disappointing box office numbers.

So, in the end, how good the movie is matters most.

kefrank

I don't think you're giving the medium of film (or perhaps art in general) enough credit. Films, and the society in which they are made and viewed, are not mutually exclusive. They inform and enrich one another. To use an example close to my heart, Enter the Dragon was never going to win any Academy Awards. Let's be honest, some of the acting in it is downright hammy. But in 1973, for Hollywood to produce a legitimate movie with an Asian actor as the centerpiece and Asian cultural elements all over the plot was hugely significant for the medium of film and for society. By all accounts, it was a touchstone of pride and inspiration for Asian Americans as well as for other minorities, and perhaps just as importantly, it exposed majority culture to something new and different in a way that was accessible to them. It's a movie close to my heart because I fall into that latter category. Ultimately, the culture of America and the film industry were both enriched by Enter the Dragon, even though you could certainly argue the merits of it on a strictly cinematic level.

I'm as majority privilege as it gets, being a middle-class white male, so I wouldn't claim to understand the experience of minorities seeing movies that highlight elements of minority culture. And my privilege definitely manifests in ugly ways, so please don't hear this as some self-righteous soap box. But I can say I've grown to love when movies expose me to something new or make me think about things in a different way. For example, that's something I really appreciated about Lady Bird. It was decidedly female-centric, which in some ways made it harder for me to connect with it, but ultimately I liked being challenged in that way and gaining new insight, so I would love to see more films that have a distinctly female voice.

It's ok to be excited for Black Panther because it looks like an awesome movie. I certainly am excited for it in that sense. But it's also ok and appropriate to recognize that it may have cultural significance that transcends whatever level of "cinematic quality" it may have, both for African Americans and for you and me.

Abob Teff

B5Erik, it’s nice to see another raging racist just like me.

robin2099

Meh I still think this looks like garbage and is only getting a lot of notice because its part of the Marvel wheelhouse.

B5Erik

I feel like Mike Muir - He only wanted a Pepsi, and I only wanted to praise the movie.

Isn't it racist to assume someone has racist intent or overtones?

Giantrobo ass/u/me/d this situation into a freaking soap opera.

Was I supposed to be more excited about Creed featuring a black man in the lead than being a really good, really entertaining movie that reinvented the Rocky story? I was in for Creed from the day it was announced. I was a strong supporter, just like with Black Panther.

I never said that either movie wasn't a reason for celebration by people who feel like they've been marginalized cinematically. I was just totally excited about both films based on the quality of the movies themselves and the stories they were telling!

I guess that isn't allowed.

kefrank

But you did more than express excitement about the movie when you said:
And it's mainly that statement that others are taking issue with, because it is absolutely relevant unless you think movies exist in a vacuum outside of society. It is really ok to acknowledge that perhaps with that statement you misspoke and it resulted in misunderstanding. Or you can keep digging in and refuse to swallow even that small bit of pride. I find for me it's helpful to realize when my refusal to swallow a little pride is what's keeping me in discussions like this and acknowledge it when I realize it. YMMV though.

B5Erik

See, and here's where you ass/u/me things and live up to the cliche.

My point is that the movie looks well written, well directed, well acted, and has a great concept. Put those factors together and you will get a good movie regardless of the ethnicity of the cast and characters.

The fact that this movie is appealing to people on another level is irrelevant to the quality of the movie. That is a fact. The movie could appeal to people on another level and still suck. I'm just pointing out that I don't think it's going to suck - just the opposite, I think it's going to be really good!

And wouldn't it be a huge problem (and a massive letdown for a lot of people for those non cinematic reasons) if the movie DID suck, and tanked at the box office?

Fortunately, that isn't going to be the case!

Fuck, some people are way hypersensitive. Honestly, some of you need to be honest with yourselves and ask if you're looking to find comments that are in any way offensive. Someone posts nothing but positive comments about this movie and you still find reasons to be offended and start insinuating that the person making those positive comments is somehow a racist. That's pathetic. Don't jump all over someone who is excited about and promoting the movie that you think is important!


And this is maybe another way to look at it. Foxy Brown is looked at as one of the better, "Blaxploitation," movies of that era. It's not viewed as a great movie (or even very good - just kind of good, but entertaining). It is dismissed as, "Good for that kind of thing." Now I like Foxy Brown, but it is no great cinematic achievement, and it wasn't a blockbuster at the box office. (Successful? Yes. Big hit? No.) Had more of those, "Blaxploitation," movies been better written, directed, and acted they would have crossed over to a wider audience than they did and we might not be having this conversation now about how people of color aren't adequately/properly represented in the movies. Quality really is the most important thing - especially for a movie like this.

kefrank

For what it's worth, the only thing I've assumed is that your personal pride is driving your participation in this discussion more than some ideology might be. I never accused you of racism - I only accused you of not giving the medium of film (or art in general) enough credit. I took your statement at face value and posted multiple paragraphs about why, as a fan of film, I disagree that, "The ethnic make-up of the cast and characters is irrelevant" and that, "how good the movie is matters most." You've chosen not to engage at all with those points.

B5Erik

You're still not getting it. All I said, and all I meant, was that the concept, story, acting, and directing looks like it's going to be very, very good and the movie will hold up well as a movie, regardless of the peripheral stuff.

I can't speak to that peripheral stuff since it doesn't apply to me. I'm not arrogant enough to speak for another entire ethnic group to assume that I know how they feel about this movie or claim to share those feelings in any way. Hell, I'm not arrogant enough to speak for MY entire ethnic group (we've got a lot of bozos and idiots, and I wouldn't want to speak for them).

And I never, ever downplayed that peripheral stuff (the ethnic make-up of the cast and characters and what that means to people). I just didn't address it.

Again, using Foxy Brown as an example you can have movies with predominantly African American casts that are entertaining, but still lacking in cinematic quality. Those movies were important to some people for sure, but isn't it a shame that they weren't better movies? As wildly entertaining as many of them were, almost none of them hold up against the best movies of that era in terms of writing, directing, and acting, and that led to limited box office results, which meant that Hollywood didn't believe in movies led by predominantly African American (or Hispanic, or, especially, Asian) casts.

I don't know what more I can say. I mean, I've wildly supported Creed, 42, Black Panther, etc. What more do you want?

kefrank

The idea that the ethnic content of the movie doesn't apply to you is what I was disputing in this post (which I'm honestly still not sure you ever read). My argument is, no matter what culture you come from, if you're a fan of film then the ethnic content of the movie is at least somewhat relevant.

Maybe you can help me understand how how the statement "the ethnic make up of the cast and characters is irrelevant" doesn't in any way downplay the ethnic make up of the cast and characters and isn't somehow addressing it. I can't make sense of that, but perhaps there's something I'm missing (and I really do mean that...help me understand).

See my post about Enter the Dragon, a movie of questionable cinematic quality overall that had major significance for society and for film.

B5Erik

Why? Isn't the quality of the movie relevant? I mean, I have nothing for or against any ethnic group as a whole, so why is the ethnic make-up of a movie relevant to me? If a movie is great, it's great, if it sucks, it sucks. Ethnic make-ups of the cast and characters doesn't change that one bit.

OK, you literally don't get the point I was making.

The ethnic make up of the cast and characters is irrelevant - TO THE QUALITY OF THE MOVIE!!!

Does that clear up the point?

But did it have major lasting significance?

Did we see movies led by Asians made in Hollywood after that? Not many, that's for sure. So what was the lasting impact? Bruce Lee was a badass??

That's the long term takeaway from that movie, really. It wasn't followed up by any kind of lasting wave of Hollywood made films starring Asians in lead roles (unfortunately).

So, ultimately, quality and box office really do matter. A one-off movie starring a cast made up largely of an underused ethnic group isn't a big deal in the long term. But a one-off movie that impacts Hollywood because it's a huge hit and influences future film releases IS a big deal.

Shit, I was hoping that Carl Weathers would be the next big action star in the late 80's, and he was poised to do so, but he lost interest in making action movies. Go figure. That would have been hugely important if he could have gotten over as a frontline action star - and he had the acting chops and the action background to make it happen!

kefrank

Of course the quality of the movie has relevance. You're the only one who has argued that something in particular is entirely irrelevant. I don't know how I can articulate it any clearer than I already did. A film is more than the sum of its scripting, performances, and direction. What does the content of film have to say? How does it comment on and/or influence the society we live in? I find it kind of odd that a fan of film wouldn't be interested in those questions at all and would find them completely irrelevant.

Yes, and I continue to disagree. In my mind, the ethnic (or thematic, or dramatic, or religious, etc) content of the movie cannot be entirely separated from the quality of the movie. These are all ingredients that inform the quality and importance of a film.

Yes, and I'm certainly not the only person to ever argue that:
http://www.ronrhodes.addr.com/articl...art-1-the.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/f...eneration.html
https://www.popoptiq.com/enter-the-d...ral-education/
https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-s...Dragon-in-1973
http://journals.openedition.org/inmedia/613#text
https://www.theguardian.com/film/fil...lack-audiences

mrhan

To a majority of Asians it is the worst BL movie. Even though it showed Bruce Lee's skills he ends up being 2nd banana in the last 3rd of the movie. I will spoilerize the rest just in case someone reading this never saw ETD.

B5Erik

Frankly, I really don't care what a filmmaker has to say. Is he or she entertaining me. That's what I care about.

A move can have a lot to say - a lot of important things - but if the movie sucks those things are irrelevant.

I'm sorry, but that's hogwash. If the script sucks, the script sucks. If the direction sucks, the direction sucks. If the acting sucks, the acting sucks. The ethnic (or thematic, or dramatic, or religious, etc) content is irrelevant if the movie sucks. Who cares if it's, "Important," if it's unwatchable?

On the other hand, a movie can have absolutely NOTHING to say of social importance and still be great.

Look, I grew up in the 70's and 80's, and I know the lasting impact of Enter The Dragon.

Here it is: "Bruce Lee is cool!" "Bruce Lee is tough!" "Bruce Lee is one badass MF!!!"

It wasn't: "I've got to explore Asian cinema more thoroughly." It wasn't: "I've got to look into Asian culture more thoroughly." Now THAT impact would have been cool! (I love Asian movies and culture, but that interest was initiated when I was 7 by Godzilla movies, not Enter The Dragon.)

It was all about Bruce Lee as an individual. ETD didn't have any lasting impact in Hollywood. Hollywood execs didn't have their eyes opened so they would start casting Asian actors in lead roles (unfortunately).



Getting back closer to the topic, maybe you could look at my feelings for Black Panther this way - it won't need a qualifier. It won't be a case of, "Well, it's good for a movie with a predominantly African American cast." It won't be like saying Foxy Brown is, "Really good for a blaxploitation movie."

This movie will stand on it's own and hold up cinematically as well as most of Marvel's movies. That is very important to ensuring box office success, which will lead to move movies like this.

Now if only WB/DC would make a Static Shock movie - and make it as good as Black Panther! (I like the characters in Static, it was a good cartoon that my daughter and I both enjoy watching.)

dex14

Please move on.

kefrank

We are being told to move on, so this is all I can say: the ethnic/thematic/dramatic/religious content of a film is a factor in whether or not the film entertains/engages me. Apparently it isn't a factor for you, so we are at a standstill and should evidently move on as we've been told to.

You are viewing these things in absolute/extreme terms and I am arguing for a matter of degrees, so we are again at a standstill from which I will gladly move on.

Abob Teff

cin0

You wanna know what my dream is? Speaking as a black POC from Atlanta. I would like to one day have a conversation about a black superhero's introduction to films where a flame war about race not overshadowing the conversatiln about the character itself and how great the movie is gonna be.

I think this is totally sad. Black Panther is an awesome superhero, and for me I am completely excited that this is the first time so much positivity surrounds a black superhero. What's got me upset is the discussion being had isn't even about he movie at the moment but rather the race of the character in the movie and how is "forced diversity".

B5Erik

Forced diversity? Who the hell would say that? I mean, how can you have a Black Panther movie without a predominantly African or African American cast? It's inherent to the characters in the comics. And that's why I made the statement that I did several pages ago - forget any of those issues (or, NON-issues, really), the movie will stand on it's own cinematic merits!

As I've been saying - the bottom line is the movie looks fantastic!

Hopefully we get two Black Panther sequels, and hopefully the success of Black Panther prompts DC/WB to do a live action Static Shock movie (that animated series was really good, and the characters were excellent and more than worthy of a movie).

cin0

Sure as hell not me. I'm scrolling threw and reading a debate about why one wouldn't get on board to see the movie. I don't know if you knew or not but they were actually rumored at one point wanting to change the race from the character from black to white so Keeanu's unexpressive acting could be put on display in the role because he had some "martial experience"

I agree, it's just a shame there's anyone existence that would overlook a movie because they don't agree with an all black cast in a movie based in Africa, though they can fully get on board from race bent characters based on Japanese stories or true-story roles of other races

Lol Im sure we'll get a full trilogy. Black Panther is too great a character to not be done right. It's like not making a sequal to Cap.

As were the comicbooks of Static's run in the 90's were just as great. I loved it. His run with the Teen Titans too. A live action movie should've been done 5 years ago, maybe DCEU would hold a bit more weight at the moment if they started back then.

Giantrobo

Wow. But ok...

This movie is gunna RuLE!!!!

stingermck

I'm ready for this one, commercials and trailers have been great.

My wife was not familiar with Black Panther at all before Civil War, and she loved him, and is very excited for the solo film.