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Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

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Old 07-04-13, 09:33 AM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Originally Posted by dan30oly
Then you'll love it when you hear I'm contemplating going to the theater to see it again only to leave 20 minutes later to demand a refund.

The tirade of hate I'm going to spew at the theater for daring to show this putrid pile of shit is going to be epic (and pathetic).
Well something is pathetic, that's for sure.
Old 07-04-13, 09:35 AM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Originally Posted by fumanstan
Well something is pathetic, that's for sure.
Old 07-04-13, 09:50 AM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Originally Posted by Giantrobo
Lol @ the energy spent hating/loving this film.
Seriously. The opposite of love is indifference. Some people apparently have such a mad-on, the likes of which would make Cole Porter blush
Old 07-04-13, 12:28 PM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Originally Posted by fumanstan
well something is pathetic, that's for sure.
fact.
Old 07-04-13, 02:07 PM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Originally Posted by Paul_SD
Plenty!
What follows is a point by point response, spoilerized for people that have no interest in this semi-off tangent discussion (though these problems still relate- as MoS- to issues of poor storytelling )


Spoiler:



Try to separate what happens in Jedi from this for a moment since those events haven't happened yet. At this point we don't know conclusively that Vader is Luke's father- neither does Luke.
Just suppose that in the next film, Luke had a conversation with Ben in which Ben finally revealed "the truth". Vader was lying to Luke, and the only reason Luke was fooled was because, not being fully trained, he hadn't yet perfected guarding his emotions and desires (part of him wanted to believe Vader). Also because he was badly injured (his hand was chopped off) his psyche was easily compromised and he was close to being completely seduced by this master of lies and evil. The actual truth is Vader did kill his father as Ben originally said. And his father was not only the brother of Owen Lars but... a brother of Ben Kenobi himself! All three were siblings and Vader has slain all three and is now after Luke to defile the bloodline completely because...!*
Put aside 30 years of poorly told prequels and non canon books and comics and shifting answer interviews with Lucas and ask yourself where in the first two films (SW and ESB) would this kind of revelation have been an impossible contradiction?

Nowhere.

What does this exercise prove? That the telepathic signal at the end of ESB is no more a sturdy example of empathy building between Vader and Luke than the force choke between Vader and the senator on the Death Star in the first film. It could be spun a completely different way if it needed to be- for example as another display of Vaders overwhelming powerful mastery of the dark side of the force.

So without that, we are now left with only the events of Jedi to support these last minute changes of heart. Essentially what we are getting is a whole lot of justification bundled together in the third act (Jedi), for everything that is about to be contradicted from the first two acts (ANH, ESB).

And every example that you cite here, of how Jedi supports these coming contradictions



All these are examples of the film TELLING us this is how Luke feels, but not showing us that these stated feelings are in any way warranted.
An example of showing these statements/feelings being warranted would be something like a scene (In ANH or ESB or even the first act of ROTJ) where we experience Vader having the opportunity to save/protect Luke and his friends and frustrate the Emperors goals and does so.
Where in SW or ESB has he ever done this? Actually what we experience is him doing just the opposite in ESB by capturing Han and Leia and torturing Han to get Luke into his clutches. THAT is what we see and experience about this character...not that he a good, conflicted man struggling to get free.
Or how about a scene where he is shown deceiving the Emperor in acts 1 or 2 (of Jedi) for his own purposes? Something like that would support his previous petition to Luke at the end of ESB that they join forces and overthrow the Emperor because we now see proof that is what he wants to do.
There isn't anything like that anywhere in the film! Vader was full of shit on Bespin because the very next film he is shown to be a completely in the service of the Emperor- as he has always been- executing every order he is given without fail until this 11:59 switch where he suddenly, out of thin air, develops a conscious.

Luke swaggers into Jedi announcing to the world this master of evil is his father and therefore he must be a good man and is worth a sacrifice to try to redeem.
And this is what the Hulk Critic is talking about when he discusses ASSUMED EMPATHY.


In the Jedi example, Luke is the (supposed) hero and that's why we are supposed to share every feeling he tells us he has- not because we see events play out dramatically to make us understand and let us experience ourselves why these feelings exist (i.e- why Vader is good, why Luke should sacrifice himself for him, etc). Just because he's the hero and he says this is what he feels so we should feel it too.

And these are the exact same mistakes MoS makes again and again


*to spin that short hand fan fic scenario out a little more fully
Spoiler:
All three were siblings and Vader has slain all three and is now after Luke to defile the bloodline completely because...Vader was lusting after Anakin's wife (Luke's mother) and this sexual jealousy is what precipitated his turn to the dark side and why he ended up killing Luke's father. This is why the episode in the tree alludes to Luke becoming another Vader- that his rivalry with Han over Leia is what could lead him to the dark side just as well, should she spurn him and choose Han- if Luke is unable to accept it and move on.

Honestly- is any of that worse than "oh by the way, Leia is your sister and Vader is your father.
Wow! you're right. Now I suddenly feel empathy for him and will try to assist him in redeeming himself. I'll also just ignore all the evil he has done up till now because he's the daddy I never knew so he must be a great guy underneath it all...despite all that cutting off my hand and repeatedly torturing my friends and sister stuff"

Which of these two scenarios is actually supported by the actions, events, and character behavior we have seen & experienced in ANH and ESB and which scenario is consistently contradicting those same actions, events, behaviors?
We know Luke. We trust him. If he feels and connects with his father (which was never going to be a question), and it's literally there on screen, how is that not earned? How are we supposed to ignore Empire since that is what sets up Jedi?

Plus based on Luke and Vader's conversation after Luke surrenders, Vader hints he is conflicted. He says "it's too late for me" to Luke, meaning he admits he has been taken over by the dark side of the Force, but yet Luke feels good in him. Are we supposed to think this a trick? No, because Luke is strong with the Force. You're making a hypothetical argument that's just not there. I saw the original movies before the prequels and didn't read any other books ot whatever point you were trying to make. Never did I doubt Vader was Luke's father. It made complete sense.

Plus Vader is not as ruthless once he does come into contact with Luke at the end of Empire. He was killing his top men left and right. He doesn't when the Millennium Falcon gets away at the end of Empire.
Old 07-04-13, 04:00 PM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Brack, it all boils down to the difference between being told something by a character versus seeing that information played out in a dramatic way so that we can experience it ourselves.

In other words- talk is cheap and it's the laziest form of dramatic writing to have characters tell you what has happened or how they feel about it, rather than showing us the events play out and letting us experience and intuit that information and those feelings ourselves.

Spoiler:
Nowhere in ESB or ANH do we see Vader act in a way that can be construed as conflicted. He has marching orders from the Emperor and he carries them out...in both films. Every action he makes on Bespin conforms to the plan he hatches with the Emperor in the second act of that film to capture Luke. Further he chops his hand off and tries to seduce him with appeals to blood ("you're my son, let's finally be together as father & son) and power ("we'll rule the galaxy together!") but neither of these appeals is inconsistent with his evil persona. If he can't capture Luke by brute force, he will capture him by seduction and vice versa. Just because he fails and Luke escapes doesn't mean that Vader is actually good or conflicted about his actions. His attempt to reach him telepathically was in the effort to control his mind and get him to overpower his friends and turn the Falcon around so that he could be taken into custody...nothing more.
After two films full of dramatized evidence to the contrary, you are choosing to rationalize that one act as Vader making an honest sympathetic appeal? You're reaching to find any feeble evidence of anything in this character to support characters suddenly adopting attitudes in the next film that are entirely inconsistent with their past film experiences and fully unearned.


Old 07-04-13, 04:15 PM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

I didn't get to implement my MoS plan today.

The ushers wouldn't let my cat in even if I paid for his ticket (he was on a leash at least).

I told them that my cats true origin story made more sense than Supermans in MoS, and that my cats cape wasn't waiting in the antartic for 20,000 years to be retrieved (I had made it last week - and it was more "Superman authentic"). I even got the theater manager to agree. Unfortunately unless I get paperwork showing that my cat is a service animal, they won't let him in.

I have to make some calls in the morning.
Old 07-04-13, 06:00 PM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Originally Posted by Paul_SD
Brack, it all boils down to the difference between being told something by a character versus seeing that information played out in a dramatic way so that we can experience it ourselves.

In other words- talk is cheap and it's the laziest form of dramatic writing to have characters tell you what has happened or how they feel about it, rather than showing us the events play out and letting us experience and intuit that information and those feelings ourselves.

Spoiler:
Nowhere in ESB or ANH do we see Vader act in a way that can be construed as conflicted. He has marching orders from the Emperor and he carries them out...in both films. Every action he makes on Bespin conforms to the plan he hatches with the Emperor in the second act of that film to capture Luke. Further he chops his hand off and tries to seduce him with appeals to blood ("you're my son, let's finally be together as father & son) and power ("we'll rule the galaxy together!") but neither of these appeals is inconsistent with his evil persona. If he can't capture Luke by brute force, he will capture him by seduction and vice versa. Just because he fails and Luke escapes doesn't mean that Vader is actually good or conflicted about his actions. His attempt to reach him telepathically was in the effort to control his mind and get him to overpower his friends and turn the Falcon around so that he could be taken into custody...nothing more.
After two films full of dramatized evidence to the contrary, you are choosing to rationalize that one act as Vader making an honest sympathetic appeal? You're reaching to find any feeble evidence of anything in this character to support characters suddenly adopting attitudes in the next film that are entirely inconsistent with their past film experiences and fully unearned.


Show, don't tell? How are supposed to do that with a guy who always wears a mask? He did let his top officer live at the end of Empire, after he killed 2 of his top guys earlier in the film? Why was that, a mere change of heart? Or was he just formulating future plans. Either way, he was distracted by Luke.

Plus how do you not believe Luke wasn't getting in Vader's head as well? Obviously he was, otherwise he wouldn't be sensing the good in him. Vader isn't the star of these last few movies, and Ben even said Anakin was a good man. That alone was enough for me and probably most people. Not you of course. You simply don't buy Vader would destroy the Emperor, who was killing his own son. I guess when we're told the force is strong with Anakin or Luke, or whoever, we shouldn't believe it, since that's just talk? Some rationale you've got there.
Old 07-04-13, 06:31 PM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Ok, I'm going to try to frame this problem in a a way more germane to an MoS thread.

If after the Smallville battle, when the army and Superman get together and hatch the singularity plan
What would your reaction have been if at that point Superman got quiet, lowered his head in thought for a few seconds and then suddenly announced.
"Wait! I think Zod's attitude can be changed. I feel that there is still a good man in there and I think I can reach him and together we will find a use for the codex that both honors Krypton and serves earth" And all the army people, and Lois, nod in agreement .

Would you have felt that Superman's feelings in that instance had been earned by Zod's actions in the film prior to that? Would you feel "yeah, he's obviously a good person because Superman just said he felt it...hopefully Superman can save him"?
Go a step further and when Superman tries and fails to convince Zod, they have a big contentious battle. Zod gets seriously injured and the Kryptonian Nazi doctor steps up finish Superman off and is seconds away from killing him when Zod suddenly has a change of heart and saves Superman by killing his Kryptonian compatriot - a person whose life's goals and life experience were much more similar to his Zod's than Zod's was to Kal's.

Would you have found that turn of events satisfying? Justified? Earned?
Or would it have seemed like complete bullshit?
Old 07-04-13, 08:26 PM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Originally Posted by fumanstan
Well something is pathetic, that's for sure.
pathetic is too kind of a word.
Old 07-04-13, 09:47 PM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Originally Posted by Paul_SD
Ok, I'm going to try to frame this problem in a a way more germane to an MoS thread.

If after the Smallville battle, when the army and Superman get wa stogether and hatch the singularity plan
What would your reaction have been if at that point Superman got quiet, lowered his head in thought for a few seconds and then suddenly announced.
"Wait! I think Zod's attitude can be changed. I feel that there is still a good man in there and I think I can reach him and together we will find a use for the codex that both honors Krypton and serves earth" And all the army people, and Lois, nod in agreement .

Would you have felt that Superman's feelings in that instance had been earned by Zod's actions in the film prior to that? Would you feel "yeah, he's obviously a good person because Superman just said he felt it...hopefully Superman can save him"?
Go a step further and when Superman tries and fails to convince Zod, they have a big contentious battle. Zod gets seriously injured and the Kryptonian Nazi doctor steps up finish Superman off and is seconds away from killing him when Zod suddenly has a change of heart and saves Superman by killing his Kryptonian compatriot - a person whose life's goals and life experience were much more similar to his Zod's than Zod's was to Kal's.

Would you have found that turn of events satisfying? Justified? Earned?
Or would it have seemed like complete bullshit?

Considering these are two separate universes, what Kal-El would be doing is expressing an opinion, a thought, not a feeling. Kal-El wasn't using the Force in your example. What Luke can do is actually feel what Vader is feeling. Yes, the Force is a plot device, but so what, it works within the context of Star Wars. Had Man of Steel established a similar concept, and this was the third movie with Zod, and Zod was really Kal-El's father, or whatever, it might work. But you're comparing apples to oranges here.
Old 07-04-13, 11:04 PM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

This is probably my favorite--and most creative--review of this movie so far:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/hPKIEuy2KE8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

If you're not familiar with his work, he's the same guy that did What if Episode I was good?
Old 07-05-13, 10:38 PM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Speaking to Fox Business Channel, Grae Drake, editor of Rotten Tomatoes, expressed dismay over the critical reception, stating, "As much as I love and respect our critics at Rotten Tomatoes, I've got to say I am shocked. Listen, the movie’s not perfect but... I just cannot fathom it. It was a good movie, you guys."[116]
Is this the first time the editor of Rotten Tomatoes has spoken out in disagreement over the rating a movie's received on his site?
Old 07-06-13, 12:04 AM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

it doesn't deserve it's 56% rating, that's for sure
Old 07-06-13, 07:41 AM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Originally Posted by redrum
it doesn't deserve it's 56% rating, that's for sure
I wonder what movies down the line will be liked that weren't so liked initially that are recent releases. Plenty of films in the past weren't very well liked until years later. I keep reading how movies like Empire and Temple of Doom weren't liked much by many critics way back when.
Old 07-06-13, 07:49 AM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Originally Posted by Kal-El
This is probably my favorite--and most creative--review of this movie so far:

If you're not familiar with his work, he's the same guy that did What if Episode I was good?
I don't get it. That was supposed to be a metaphor for MoS?
Old 07-06-13, 11:20 AM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Originally Posted by Brack
I wonder what movies down the line will be liked that weren't so liked initially that are recent releases. Plenty of films in the past weren't very well liked until years later. I keep reading how movies like Empire and Temple of Doom weren't liked much by many critics way back when.
I've heard that through the years too. All I can say is, despite being a no nothing 13 year old at the time, I loved Empire immediately and felt it was easily the equal and probably better to SW because of the depth of the character relationships. I guess all the people who just wanted a brainless summer popcorn movie to enjoy weren't smitten with the films/story's lack of a resolution- but that part kept my imagination spinning for three years.

Temple of Doom was one of those movies I convinced myself I loved, but as they years wore on, I had to admit more and more about it annoys the hell out of me.

The main film I can recall getting terrible reviews, as well as not be very impressed with myself at the time, was the Thing. In '82 it seemed like a not much more than a gratuitous-to the point of tedious-exercise in gooey gore effects. At the time it felt like whatever momentum the film had stopped so we could get the horror spfx equivalent of a musical number- and then after that bit was over, the slight narrative resumed.
For some reason though, that film plays much better now- and even I enjoy it quite a bit.

Blade Runner from that same summer was of course another one that was actively hated at the time. But that was due to the studio marketing it as a very different film than it was (all the ads played up the Raiders/Alien pedigrees)

I see a lot of similar (negative) qualities in MoS to The Thing, which makes me wonder if future reaction to it will be more like the latter- although that film was nowhere near as polarizing as this one.
Old 07-06-13, 11:30 AM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Seriously, some of you need to go out and get laid.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/IRuuF-5ZST8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Old 07-06-13, 01:48 PM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Originally Posted by Paul_SD
Ok, I'm going to try to frame this problem in a a way more germane to an MoS thread.

If after the Smallville battle, when the army and Superman get together and hatch the singularity plan
What would your reaction have been if at that point Superman got quiet, lowered his head in thought for a few seconds and then suddenly announced.
"Wait! I think Zod's attitude can be changed. I feel that there is still a good man in there and I think I can reach him and together we will find a use for the codex that both honors Krypton and serves earth" And all the army people, and Lois, nod in agreement .

Would you have felt that Superman's feelings in that instance had been earned by Zod's actions in the film prior to that? Would you feel "yeah, he's obviously a good person because Superman just said he felt it...hopefully Superman can save him"?
Go a step further and when Superman tries and fails to convince Zod, they have a big contentious battle. Zod gets seriously injured and the Kryptonian Nazi doctor steps up finish Superman off and is seconds away from killing him when Zod suddenly has a change of heart and saves Superman by killing his Kryptonian compatriot - a person whose life's goals and life experience were much more similar to his Zod's than Zod's was to Kal's.

Would you have found that turn of events satisfying? Justified? Earned?
Or would it have seemed like complete bullshit?
If the movie had had that ending, maybe it wouldn't have been complete garbage. Not just as a Superman movie, but a movie in general.
Old 07-06-13, 02:40 PM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

No. That would have dumb. Zod's mentality as a skeleton frame isn't bad. It's just the meat in that frame that doesn't jive well.
Old 07-07-13, 01:13 AM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

A solid 4 of 5 stars from me. I loved the film, and am definitely buying it on Blu-Ray.
Old 07-07-13, 09:59 AM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

There are so many eye rolling moments in this mess of a movie that a drinking game should be made out of it. I thought nobody could do style over substance like Michael Bay, but Snyder proved me wrong.
Old 07-07-13, 11:53 AM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Originally Posted by redrum
it doesn't deserve it's 56% rating, that's for sure
Sounds about right to me given the near split down the middle in opinions about the film.

This film reminded me of The Matrix Revolutions in terms of over the top action and noise, as well as two basically indestructible people just pounding each other over and over and over. Matrix Revolutions was rated 36% on RT.

So be happy. It's rated better than Matrix Revolutions.
Old 07-07-13, 09:41 PM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

56% is a perfect rating for MOS.

The movie is 50/50...you either hate it or love it.

I personally am in between. It's a nice action flick but it's missing that goosebumps feeling I got from Superman 1978 and Superman II.

What a shame that they couldn't make Cavill charm us with some inspiring scenes. Something cool like saving a lady then he smiles etc Or catching a massive rooftop from a building to save some people then the crowd thanks him and he looks back and smiles and waves. Something that makes you want to applaud at Superman.

I didn't give two shits when he took off flying for the first time. I gave a lesser shit when he saved Lois Lane from falling off the ship.

There was no inspiring Superman scenes.

All we got was a dark Superman that is quite serious. It didn't leave any good memorable moments behind that were Super heroic!

All I remember is Pa Kent waving at Kent. That was the only memorable moment that was touching.
Old 07-07-13, 11:24 PM
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Re: Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013) — The Reviews Thread (Part II)

Originally Posted by antspawn
What a shame that they couldn't make Cavill charm us with some inspiring scenes. Something cool like saving a lady then he smiles etc Or catching a massive rooftop from a building to save some people then the crowd thanks him and he looks back and smiles and waves. Something that makes you want to applaud at Superman.


What cheesy bullshit.


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