Go Back  DVD Talk Forum > Entertainment Discussions > Movie Talk
Reload this Page >

Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Movie Talk A Discussion area for everything movie related including films In The Theaters

Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Old 01-15-16, 09:45 PM
  #9901  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 20,703
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Anakin sure had a lot of flaws for a "chosen one."

Maybe they plan a "chosen one 2.0" where Rey acts more like a "chosen one" would, as in continually doing good.
Ranger is offline  
Old 01-15-16, 11:20 PM
  #9902  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
hanshotfirst1138's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Livonia MI
Posts: 9,678
Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
Anakin sure had a lot of flaws for a "chosen one."
The idea of a guy "chosen" by good, but choosing to be evil is quite fascinating. Unfortunately the writing of the film did very little to explore it well, and Christenson's wooden acting and Lucas' bad dialogue did not help.
hanshotfirst1138 is offline  
Old 01-15-16, 11:50 PM
  #9903  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 20,703
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Originally Posted by hanshotfirst1138 View Post
The idea of a guy "chosen" by good, but choosing to be evil is quite fascinating. Unfortunately the writing of the film did very little to explore it well, and Christenson's wooden acting and Lucas' bad dialogue did not help.

Turning evil is one thing. But he was selfish, arrogant, had a violent temper, etc.

And the OT hadn't said anything about Anakin being a "chosen one". It just wasn't a good idea.
Ranger is offline  
Old 01-15-16, 11:59 PM
  #9904  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 20,703
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Anyway, my point was maybe they can get the "chosen one" thing right this time.
Ranger is offline  
Old 01-16-16, 12:24 AM
  #9905  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Josh-da-man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Bible Belt
Posts: 30,666
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
Turning evil is one thing. But he was selfish, arrogant, had a violent temper, etc.

And the OT hadn't said anything about Anakin being a "chosen one". It just wasn't a good idea.
Yeah, by the time the prequels rolled around, Lucas got this bug up his ass about the whole saga (which he had reduced to six movies by then) being about the fall and redemption of Darth Vader. So then we get all of this stupid shit about midiclorians and prophecies and virgin births that serve to pound how awesome Anakin Skywalker is into our heads.

I have long said that, after almost two decades of wondering what caused Anakin to fall to the dark side, the answer given in the prequels is that he was just kind of an asshole.
Josh-da-man is offline  
Old 01-16-16, 02:16 AM
  #9906  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,477
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Originally Posted by Double_Oh_7 View Post
Maybe it's just me, but what's wrong with making something for the fans?
I think by "making something for the fans" he meant pandering to them, kind of like how after ESB Boba Fett became a fan favorite and Lucas later decided to take advantage of that popularity and insert the character into the Special Edition of A New Hope, and made him and his father a central part of the prequel trilogy.

Despite his hypocrisy I can see where he's coming from considering that Disney was shooting for comfortable nostalgia as opposed to being risky and doing something that's more challenging.
brayzie is offline  
Old 01-16-16, 11:38 AM
  #9907  
Moderator
 
story's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hope.
Posts: 8,559
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

I hadn't thought about that in terms of hypocrisy. Maybe Lucas and Abrams have different ideas on what fans want and how to deliver that. Does money come into play? Boba Fett merch flies off the shelves so that's what the fans want so he gets his story told? Or do you start the other way and say people love Han and with Han present that sells the movie which spreads the money love?

To be fair to Disney, who wouldn't get in on the Nostalgia Train?! X-Files is back. Rocky/Creed is back. Full House is back. Indiana Jones is back. Twin Peaks almost came back. Arrested Development is back, and that was barely gone. When G.I. Joe came back a few years ago, it was new molds but in the spirit of the old ones AND in the original packaging. But it's not just G.I. Joe. My Little Pony. Transformers. TMNT has reinvented at least 3-4 times in 20 years. Heck, they even sell the toys from the 50s and 60s my dad played with, exactly the way they were and in retro packaging, so boomers can connect with their grandchildren. The nostalgia waves hit you hard as you walk through the aisle and you think about what you want to buy for yourself and buy to share with your kids and what is it? It's your childhood - or at least, the rose-tinted best parts of it. And let's not pretend politicians don't prey on peoples' want for it to be like it used to be back in the day, bu that's for another thread...

Perhaps the cries against nostalgia/echoes in Star Wars is a way of saying hey, we see this all over the place and it's cheapening something for us and now it's in Star Wars and that's going too far.

I don't feel that way, necessarily, but I wonder if that's a motivation, if even on a subconscious level.

Last edited by story; 01-16-16 at 12:56 PM. Reason: Twin Peaks IS back!
story is offline  
Old 01-16-16, 11:52 AM
  #9908  
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,180
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Originally Posted by story View Post
Twin Peaks almost came back.
Currently being filmed and will be back on Showtime next year.
Super X is offline  
Old 01-16-16, 12:56 PM
  #9909  
Moderator
 
story's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hope.
Posts: 8,559
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Nice. Fixed!
story is offline  
Old 01-16-16, 11:34 PM
  #9910  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 27,001
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Was Anakin the chosen one who was supposed to do good? I thought he was supposed to bring balance to the Force, and obviously there were way too many Jedi running around.
fujishig is offline  
Old 01-17-16, 12:56 AM
  #9911  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Conducting miss-aisle drills and listening to their rock n roll
Posts: 17,195
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Yeah. That fact is obvious but most people miss it for some reason. Anakin was prophecied to bring balance to the force. The prophecy was misread by the Jedi. He did bring balance. By killing nearly every Jedi and then killing the emperor and himself. Clean slate. Nice and balanced.
Mabuse is offline  
Old 01-17-16, 01:07 AM
  #9912  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,477
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

But why did they want The Force to be balanced in the first place? Apparently the Sith were all wiped out, and the only people using the Force (until Darth Maul showed up) were Jedi who only used it for good.
brayzie is offline  
Old 01-17-16, 01:48 AM
  #9913  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Rosemount, MN
Posts: 31,114
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Guys...we just can't try to figure out the PT. Lucas obviously had no idea what he was doing, none of it was planned and none of it makes any sense.
Draven is offline  
Old 01-17-16, 04:13 AM
  #9914  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Josh-da-man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Bible Belt
Posts: 30,666
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
Yeah. That fact is obvious but most people miss it for some reason. Anakin was prophecied to bring balance to the force. The prophecy was misread by the Jedi. He did bring balance. By killing nearly every Jedi and then killing the emperor and himself. Clean slate. Nice and balanced.
Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
But why did they want The Force to be balanced in the first place? Apparently the Sith were all wiped out, and the only people using the Force (until Darth Maul showed up) were Jedi who only used it for good.
Originally Posted by Draven View Post
Guys...we just can't try to figure out the PT. Lucas obviously had no idea what he was doing, none of it was planned and none of it makes any sense.
It's really not that easy to figure out what the prophecy about balancing the force means because the writing in the prequels is so dumb -- filled with vagaries, dead end plotlines, contradictions, and vague nonsense -- that it's difficult to tell what is subtext and what is just shitty writing.

Perfect example: Obi Wan has a line in "Revenge of the Sith" where Obi Wan tells Anakin that "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." And I'm still puzzled as to whether or not George Lucas knew what he had actually written.
Josh-da-man is offline  
Old 01-17-16, 05:14 AM
  #9915  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
joe_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,122
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

joe_b is offline  
Old 01-17-16, 07:53 AM
  #9916  
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Formerly known as "Solid Snake PAC"/Denton, Tx
Posts: 39,239
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Solid Snake is offline  
Old 01-17-16, 08:39 AM
  #9917  
DVD Talk Legend
 
astrochimp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 17,734
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Originally Posted by joe_b View Post
That was good
astrochimp is offline  
Old 01-17-16, 09:10 AM
  #9918  
DVD Talk Godfather
 
Michael Corvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 57,262
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post

Perfect example: Obi Wan has a line in "Revenge of the Sith" where Obi Wan tells Anakin that "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." And I'm still puzzled as to whether or not George Lucas knew what he had actually written.
"In religious philosophy, the Absolute is the concept of (a form of) Being which transcends limited, conditional, everyday existence."

But then you have Obi-wan and Yoda as force ghosts who transcended everyday existence.
Michael Corvin is online now  
Old 01-17-16, 09:39 AM
  #9919  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Shazam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 10,027
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

OMG SNL not on Hulu! Canadians can watch!
Shazam is offline  
Old 01-17-16, 09:41 AM
  #9920  
Member
 
Brack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: near Cincinnati
Posts: 9,595
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Originally Posted by Shazam View Post
OMG SNL not on Hulu! Canadians can watch!
That's a YouTube video...
Brack is offline  
Old 01-17-16, 10:38 AM
  #9921  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Shazam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 10,027
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Originally Posted by Brack View Post
That's a YouTube video...
Yes, that's what I'm saying... Usually everything SNL ends up on Hulu and Canadians don't have access to Hulu...
Shazam is offline  
Old 01-17-16, 10:41 AM
  #9922  
Member
 
Brack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: near Cincinnati
Posts: 9,595
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Originally Posted by Shazam View Post
Yes, that's what I'm saying... Usually everything SNL ends up on Hulu and Canadians don't have access to Hulu...
Full episodes are on Hulu, but individual skits are on YouTube all the time.
Brack is offline  
Old 01-17-16, 12:43 PM
  #9923  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Shazam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 10,027
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Originally Posted by Brack View Post
Full episodes are on Hulu, but individual skits are on YouTube all the time.
HOLY SHIT and they're not blocked for Canadians!! This is a fairly new thing judging from the video upload dates.
Shazam is offline  
Old 01-18-16, 02:39 PM
  #9924  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
hanshotfirst1138's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Livonia MI
Posts: 9,678
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
Turning evil is one thing. But he was selfish, arrogant, had a violent temper, etc.
He was just badly written. A lot of people blame Christensen, but the way Anikan was conceived in the prequels-constantly whining incessantly, crying and moaning-its hard to connect him with the feared evil Darth Vader who was such a powerful, intimidating, frightening presence in the original trilogy.

And the OT hadn't said anything about Anakin being a "chosen one". It just wasn't a good idea.
He had it all planned out to begin with, don't you know?

Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
Anyway, my point was maybe they can get the "chosen one" thing right this time.
Or ignore that annoying "chosen once" cliche that has been past its shelf date since before I was born. But they're so not going to do that.

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
Yeah, by the time the prequels rolled around, Lucas got this bug up his ass about the whole saga (which he had reduced to six movies by then) being about the fall and redemption of Darth Vader.
That's not a bad idea, but the way that the originals played, they were Luke's arc rather than Vader's, so the idea didn't fit what was already there. Lucas constantly found himself bending over backwards and tweaking existing stuff to make his so-called "saga" work, and eventually the mythology started to fold in on itself. There are interesting ideas in the prequels, but they're hamstrung by needing to fit something that was written 20 years earlier, developed by other people, and frankly bad filmmaking. Anikan's arc should have been emotionally involving, but it's nearly impossible when the dialogue is nonsense like "You underestimate my power!" and "I hate you!" The flat acting didn't help either. Lucas is a good idea man. He needs people like Kasdan, Kershner, and Kurtz to then take the ideas and make them into something better.

So then we get all of this stupid shit about midiclorians and prophecies and virgin births that serve to pound how awesome Anakin Skywalker is into our heads.
The "virgin birth" thing was really stupid. Although the idea that Palpatine created him to fuck with the Jedi is kind of neat.

I have long said that, after almost two decades of wondering what caused Anakin to fall to the dark side, the answer given in the prequels is that he was just kind of an asshole.
I think the intention was that it was primarily the death of his mother and his sense of feeling betrayed by the Jedi, and disillusionment with their values. But again, good idea on paper. Lucas clearly wanted it to feel epic and Shakespearean, but it mostly feels just like "that's it?!"

Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
I think by "making something for the fans" he meant pandering to them
Like Abrams or not, that's pretty much what he spends the whole movie doing.

Kind of like how after ESB Boba Fett became a fan favorite and Lucas later decided to take advantage of that popularity and insert the character into the Special Edition of A New Hope, and made him and his father a central part of the prequel trilogy.
Again, having him become key to the mythology in the prequels? Not a bad idea. The execution? So not a good idea. It's like what Jackson did with Legolas in The Hobbit. Having him in Mirkwood was cool. Having him follow the Dwarves down the river for a cutscene from God of War, get a third of the the film without and development or change, and take Beorn's big fight. Idea? Good. Execution? Bad.

Despite his hypocrisy I can see where he's coming from considering that Disney was shooting for comfortable nostalgia as opposed to being risky and doing something that's more challenging.
Disney have obviously went out of their way to court fans of the originals and more or less ignore the prequels. Abrams "this is back to basics, you have to go backwards before you can go forwards" waffling aside, the simple truth is probably that Disney spent $4 billion and want to make this as commercial as humanly possible. This isn't the kind of movie where the filmmakers will be taking any risks, even small ones.

Originally Posted by story View Post
I hadn't thought about that in terms of hypocrisy. Maybe Lucas and Abrams have different ideas on what fans want and how to deliver that.
Lucas, for better or worse, seemed to decide when he made the prequels that he was making them for himself rather than the fans, but was hamstrung by the obvious audience expectations. And his own bad decisions.

Does money come into play? Boba Fett merch flies off the shelves so that's what the fans want so he gets his story told?
Ask any of the Transformers writers who've had to change whatever they were writing to accommodate what toys were selling. A film in a franchise on this scale is subject to so much corporate and production focus-grouping. It's a commercial product, a franchise episode, a cultural event, and then maybe the artistic conceptions of the filmmaker making it.

To be fair to Disney, who wouldn't get in on the Nostalgia Train?!
Precisely. And yet, somehow, I have not gotten the OOT out of the deal, because God hates me.

X-Files is back.
Yet somehow, we managed to get The X-Files on Blu-ray, but not 24. Strange twist of fate.

Perhaps the cries against nostalgia/echoes in Star Wars is a way of saying hey, we see this all over the place and it's cheapening something for us and now it's in Star Wars and that's going too far.
Sequels, prequels, spin-offs, etc. almost always cheapen the original. Never stopped those who make billions from it.

Originally Posted by fujishig View Post
Was Anakin the chosen one who was supposed to do good? I thought he was supposed to bring balance to the Force, and obviously there were way too many Jedi running around.
I thought he was supposed to balance the Force by helping the Jedi defeat the Sith?

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
Yeah. That fact is obvious but most people miss it for some reason. Anakin was prophecied to bring balance to the force. The prophecy was misread by the Jedi. He did bring balance. By killing nearly every Jedi and then killing the emperor and himself. Clean slate. Nice and balanced.
I guess you could look at it that way. The Jedi having false faith, misreading things to mean that the only outcome can be good.

Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
But why did they want The Force to be balanced in the first place? Apparently the Sith were all wiped out, and the only people using the Force (until Darth Maul showed up) were Jedi who only used it for good.
Shh!

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
Guys...we just can't try to figure out the PT. Lucas obviously had no idea what he was doing, none of it was planned and none of it makes any sense.
A less satisfying but more logical explanation.

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
It's really not that easy to figure out what the prophecy about balancing the force means because the writing in the prequels is so dumb -- filled with vagaries, dead end plotlines, contradictions, and vague nonsense -- that it's difficult to tell what is subtext and what is just shitty writing.

Perfect example: Obi Wan has a line in "Revenge of the Sith" where Obi Wan tells Anakin that "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." And I'm still puzzled as to whether or not George Lucas knew what he had actually written.
I think he was saying that a belief in something as entirely black-and-white was evil. The talks of "prophecies" and "Dark Sides and Light Sides" sounded mystical in 1977, I'm sure. But 1999, it sounded hokey, and it sounds even more cliched in 2016. Now it just sounds like plot hole spackle and lazy writing.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake View Post
That's not phallic at all.

Originally Posted by Michael Corvin View Post
"In religious philosophy, the Absolute is the concept of (a form of) Being which transcends limited, conditional, everyday existence."
That sounds like some sort of ontological god, but there really isn't much indication that the Star Wars universe has any central deity.

But then you have Obi-wan and Yoda as Force ghosts who transcended everyday existence.
The Star Wars universe has been wildly inconsistent with this. What "the Force" can or cannot do is hugely nebulous from one story to the next.

Originally Posted by Brack View Post
Full episodes are on Hulu, but individual skits are on YouTube all the time.
I wish they'd put up all the Jeopardy skits on YouTube.
hanshotfirst1138 is offline  
Old 01-18-16, 02:46 PM
  #9925  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
EddieMoney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paradise, USA
Posts: 9,623
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (2015, Abrams) S: Hamill, Ford, Fisher

Holy shit
EddieMoney is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.