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The Great Debate: Is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

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The Great Debate: Is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

Old 12-26-20, 01:42 PM
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Re: The Great Debate ; is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

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Old 12-26-20, 01:49 PM
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Re: The Great Debate ; is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

Originally Posted by MysterioMan007
I personally feel Die Hard is a Christmas movie and that Lethal Weapon is not. But I'm not going to lose any sleep over anyone who disagrees. I love the hell out of both movies. It depends on what your personal qualifications for a Christmas movie are. Personally, I just think it should make us want to watch it at Christmastime. And I've watched Die Hard almost every Christmas Eve since 1988. The thing is, John McClane does rethink his life over the course of the night. He comes to realize the importance of his family and how he let stupid little things get in the way of his marriage. The entire movie takes place on Christmas Eve at a Christmas office party. Much like Home Alone, it's got guys trying to rip off a place that's less frequented on Christmas. Just on a grander scale. Without Christmas, John McClane doesn't show up to the party and there's no hostage situation to be had. Just because it has action and suspense and doesn't follow a "Christmas formula" by having angels, Santa Claus, and reindeer in it doesn't make it any less a Christmas movie in my eyes. I get more "feels" from McClane talking with Powell on a CB radio about how he screwed up his life than I do anything in A Christmas Story. It's subjective and no one person is right or wrong in how they feel, I suppose.
This is the best argument for Die Hard being a Christmas movie yet.

To me, itís all about when I want to watch these movies. I can watch Die Hard or Lethal Weapon at anytime during the year. Both movies play just fine in the middle of summer as they do at Christmas time. I canít see myself ever watching The Polar Express, A Christmas Story, Itís a Wonderful Life, etc. at any time other than Christmas.

Old 12-26-20, 01:59 PM
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Re: The Great Debate ; is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

Originally Posted by Match
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Old 12-26-20, 06:33 PM
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

I own that book.
Old 12-26-20, 08:29 PM
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Re: The Great Debate ; is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

Originally Posted by Jay G.
The dialog you posted doesn't support your point, because in it, Kevin doesn't ask Santa for what his mom tells him to. You didn't post the whole exchange from that scene, which is as follows:
Everyone in this family hates me!

Then ask Santa for a new family.

I don't want a new family. I don't

want any family. Families suck!

Stay up there. I don't want

to see you again tonight.

I don't want to see you

for the rest of my life.

I don't want to see

anybody else either.

I hope you don't mean that.

You'd feel pretty sad if you woke up

and didn't have a family.

No, I wouldn't.

Then say it again.

Maybe it'll happen.

I hope I never see any

of you jerks again!

I wish they would all just disappear.
That dialog makes it clear that when Kevin verbalizes his wish, it has no connection to Santa. Additionally, the scene later in the movie when Kevin seeks out fake Santa and asks him to get a message to real Santa requesting that his parents be brought back wouldn't make sense if Kevin believed that just verbalizing his wish out loud in his own home to Santa would make it come true. If that's what he believed, he'd have no reason to seek out a fake Santa to get a message to the real Santa. As he states explicitly in other dialog, he just believes, "I made my family disappear!" Since he doesn't know how that worked, the only thing he can think of to try for getting them back is to get a message to Santa to see if he can do something about it.

FWIW, I agree that Home Alone doesn't really work unless it's a Christmas movie for a variety of reasons. But the contention that Kevin believes Santa made his family disappear just doesn't hold water.
Old 12-27-20, 08:33 AM
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

Originally Posted by kefrank
The dialog you posted doesn't support your point, because in it, Kevin doesn't ask Santa for what his mom tells him to. You didn't post the whole exchange from that scene, which is as follows:
I quoted what I felt was the relevant part. Again, your original statement was:
Originally Posted by kefrank
Hm, I just watched Home Alone again and there wasn't anything indicating Kevin's wish was "to Santa" as far as I could tell.
The mom explicitly suggests to Kevin that he should ask Santa for a new family, and Kevin responds that he doesn't want any family. So there's, at least, an indication that Kevin may have been wishing to Santa.

Also, the movie slyly suggests Santa may have caused the power outage, due to the focus on the Santa on the wreath during that scene:

Originally Posted by kefrank
Additionally, the scene later in the movie when Kevin seeks out fake Santa and asks him to get a message to real Santa requesting that his parents be brought back wouldn't make sense if Kevin believed that just verbalizing his wish out loud in his own home to Santa would make it come true. If that's what he believed, he'd have no reason to seek out a fake Santa to get a message to the real Santa. As he states explicitly in other dialog, he just believes, "I made my family disappear!" Since he doesn't know how that worked, the only thing he can think of to try for getting them back is to get a message to Santa to see if he can do something about it.
If he doesn't think it was Santa the first time, why doesn't he just wish out loud again? Why would Santa be able to bring back a family some other entity removed? If Kevin doesn't think Santa granted his first which, who/what does he think did? Why would he think he family just disappeared because he wished it, if it wasn't because some magical entity Kevin believes in did it?

The reason he goes sees "Santa's helper" is because it's a funny scene, and at this point Kevin is alone in the house, so he needs someone else to verbalize his new wish to.
Old 12-27-20, 09:41 AM
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

It's simple. Hans and the crew could not have done the heist on another day besides Christmas. Too many people would have been working in the building to even try. So they had to do it on Christmas Eve. It's a key plot point. So, Christmas movie.
Old 12-27-20, 10:03 AM
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

Originally Posted by stingermck
It's simple. Hans and the crew could not have done the heist on another day besides Christmas. Too many people would have been working in the building to even try. So they had to do it on Christmas Eve. It's a key plot point. So, Christmas movie.
Too few would have been working since they did the heist at night. They couldn't just kidnap Takagi at home and beat the password out of him since they needed a large hostage crisis to get the FBI to act the way they acted (cutting power) because it was part of their "terrorism playbook." That means they needed lots of hostages.
Old 12-27-20, 10:07 AM
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

Originally Posted by Jay G.
I quoted what I felt was the relevant part. Again, your original statement was:

The mom explicitly suggests to Kevin that he should ask Santa for a new family, and Kevin responds that he doesn't want any family. So there's, at least, an indication that Kevin may have been wishing to Santa.

Also, the movie slyly suggests Santa may have caused the power outage, due to the focus on the Santa on the wreath during that scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ_x-bNDTz0
Your original statement was: "A major plot point of Home Alone is that Kevin doesn't go to the cops or anything because he believes that his wish to Santa caused his family to magically disappear. You'd need another scenario where the average kid would plausibly believe that a wish to a supernatural being could come true."

If you are resorting to "at least, an indication" and "slyly suggests" then I will continue to assert that "a major plot point" was an overstatement on your part. But I should have known that you that you wouldn't be willing to back down from that.

If he doesn't think it was Santa the first time, why doesn't he just wish out loud again?
If he does think it was Santa the first time, why doesn't he just wish out loud to him again?

Why would Santa be able to bring back a family some other entity removed?
I already made the contention that since he doesn't know how he got his family to disappear, this is the only thing he can think of to try.

If Kevin doesn't think Santa granted his first which, who/what does he think did? Why would he think he family just disappeared because he wished it, if it wasn't because some magical entity Kevin believes in did it?
Why wouldn't the movie be much more clear that Kevin believes Santa did it, if it's a "major plot point"? It would have been so easy. When he made the wish, he could have said, "Santa, I wish they would just disappear." Or when he found them gone, he could have said, "I made my family disappear! Thank you Santa!"

The reason he goes sees "Santa's helper" is because it's a funny scene, and at this point Kevin is alone in the house, so he needs someone else to verbalize his new wish to.
The notion that he needs someone else to verbalize his new wish to is some seriously weak reasoning given that Kevin's original explicit wish statement, "I wish they would all just disappear..." is said to himself, in his head, when he's alone in the attic.
Old 12-27-20, 10:09 AM
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

I thought of the definitive reason Die Hard has to be a Christmas movie:
Spoiler:

The magically-appearing escape ambulance can only be explained by a Christmas miracle!
Old 12-27-20, 10:25 AM
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

Originally Posted by kefrank
Your original statement was: "A major plot point of Home Alone is that Kevin doesn't go to the cops or anything because he believes that his wish to Santa caused his family to magically disappear. You'd need another scenario where the average kid would plausibly believe that a wish to a supernatural being could come true."

If you are resorting to "at least, an indication" and "slyly suggests" then I will continue to assert that "a major plot point" was an overstatement on your part. But I should have known that you that you wouldn't be willing to back down from that.
It's a major plot point that Kevin thinks his wish magically made his family disappear. I'll concede it's not explicitly a wish to Santa if you'll concede there's at least an implication that it is.

Originally Posted by kefrank
Why wouldn't the movie be much more clear that Kevin believes Santa did it, if it's a "major plot point"?
I honestly thought the movie was clear about it. It's been my impression since the first time I saw the movie. The mom tells Kevin to ask Santa for his wish; the film focuses on the Santa image during the wind storm, and Kevin later asks Santa's helper for his family back. While you're picking apart each moment to show there's never an explicit link, I think you're ignoring the overall context of the film and how it plays out.

Originally Posted by kefrank
The notion that he needs someone else to verbalize his new wish to is some seriously weak reasoning given that Kevin's original explicit wish statement, "I wish they would all just disappear..." is said to himself, in his head, when he's alone in the attic.
On a strict plot level, you're correct, but films are more than their plot, and the scene with Santa's helping isn't because, on a strict logical level, Kevin thinks this is the only way to get a message to Santa about his wish, but because it's better in a movie sense to have Kevin vocalize to someone else, and it's a funny scene, while also revealing more about Kevin (still believes in Santa, doesn't believe the mall Santas are really Santa, but thinks they're "helpers" that work for him, etc.).
Old 12-27-20, 10:31 AM
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

Originally Posted by stingermck
It's simple. Hans and the crew could not have done the heist on another day besides Christmas. Too many people would have been working in the building to even try. So they had to do it on Christmas Eve. It's a key plot point. So, Christmas movie.
Technically, they had to do it during the night of the Nakatomi Christmas Party. If it had happened the Friday night before Christmas, the building would've been just as empty otherwise, with an office full of hostages. Also, there still would've been all the Christmas decorations up because offices typically have those up for a full month before Christmas.

Just because Mr Nakatomi was a dick that scheduled the office Christmas party on Christmas Eve doesn't mean it's the only day that it could've happened on.
Old 12-27-20, 12:06 PM
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Re: The Great Debate: Is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

I've never seen this, so I don't know if it's a true Christmas movie or not.

If you squint really hard at IMDB's summary, you might see a resemblance to IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE.
"A corrupt sheriff, who was born on Christmas Day, decides to change his ways and go against the powerful man who runs the gambling establishments in town."



Old 12-27-20, 01:05 PM
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Re: The Great Debate ; is Die Hard and Lethal Weapon a X-mas movie?

Originally Posted by MysterioMan007
What is and what's not a Christmas movie is subjective to the viewer.
Yeah, what is or isn't a Christmas movie is up to each individual. There's no objective standard.

So whether or not Diehard, Home Alone, Gremlins, or whatever are "Christmas movies," is up to each individual.

If someone thinks Diehard is a Christmas movie, it's no skin off of my nose. Likewise, if someone thinks Diehard isn't a Christmas movie, it's not skin off of my nose, either.


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