Giantrobo

I thought Saito's dream was a setup? He was testing them right?

Burnt Thru

Even the mafia aren't that vigillant against people who have actually betrayed them (henry hill is still going strong last I heard). It isn't realistic to think that a corporation would kill someone for failing to carry successfully carry out a spot of industrial espienage. Less that they would track him down and spend the money to send groups of assassins (with a poor aim) after him.


Seems that if the woman I love was on a ledge opposite me and threatening to jump I wouldn't beckon her towards me and to her screaming plummeting death.


This is where the logic of the dream levels breaks down though. The other levels exist as dreams inside specific individuals where the other consiousnesses are visitors/invaders. This level is different as it is apparently a shared existence. And yet it is populated by only the memories of one of the characters. As soon as the other people enter (and Fisher was there for a long time, dreamwise, before Cobb and Ariadne rode into town) shouldn't they start to experience their own memories and begin to alter and manipulate the world around them? Particularly with the absense of predetermined dream architecture to constrain their thought patterns?

Burnt Thru

Shazza was fit in that flick. Think it was the first time I saw Russ Le Rock in action.

RichC2

They didn't need to track him down, he went to them -- they are really specific in saying that Mombasa is Cobol Engineering's backyard. This was an action movie after all. This was the only sequence that really supported the "all a dream" comment because of how over the top it is -- but then it's a sci-fi movie based off James Bond, so it really isn't all that over the top by comparison.

And you would probably signal for her to come inside, by sheer human nature you would likely do the universal motion for "come to me" instead of "go away".

Burnt Thru

A woman standing on a ledge across the street? You'd beckon her towards you? You sick...!

It wasn't an action movie, which is part of the point of the film. There were some aspects of action but they all served a purpose. This is the only action which is supposed to occur within the "real world" and not in a dream construct, and yet the action makes less sense than in the dreamscapes. That seems like an unlikely oversight on the part of Mr Nolan. They'd still have to be actively looking for Cobb btw, which was something he suggested they would when he was going to get on the helicopter. A vast worldwide network of danger. Seems highly unrealistic.

RichC2

It was an action movie, and it not being one wasn't the point. Nolan has said repeatedly that it was sort of his version of Bond. Cobb was a master thief but obviously wasn't good at getting fake documents in the real world, Cobol just had to be notified when he arrived in Mombasa -- there's a reason why he wasn't afraid in France, and why Arthur was planning to go back to the US without worry. They knew where he was in Japan since they set that up to begin with and they knew where he was in Mombasa. Anywhere else? Not so much.

Burnt Thru

You're doing an huge amount of "filling in the blanks" there to try to fit the movie to your theory. It is certainly possible that the Cobol corporation were notified by the customs agent who admitted Cobb to Mombasa. Doesn't seem likely though unless you decide all the customs officers are on the Cobol payroll for similar situation as this. And which company in the world has this sort of policy.

And, no, it really isn't an action movie. It contains action scenes and it also contains heists but it is not really in either of those genres. It's a movie about film-making and about dreaming. That some of the ways that these ideas are explored involve action set pieces and heists doesn't transport the picture into those genres. I'm well aware of Nolan's statements regarding the movie. Dark City was apparently one of his key inspirations. Again, not an action film. I agree that the movie can be enjoyed on the superficial level of action simply because those set-pieces are so well done but there is far more going on beneath the surface that demands to be investigated.

RocShemp

Pot, meet Kettle.

fumanstan

As a random note, I heard this mentioned a few times and when I watched it a 2nd time, I never got the impression that the walls "narrow" in on him. They buildings just looked built close together.

RichC2

Action was such a huge part of the second half of the movie that it was indeed an action film. It touched on film-making as a metaphor and other core concepts, but still wound up going down the path of an action flick (setup to a lot of action sequences) Filling in the blanks? It's Mombasa/Kenya, corruption in much of Africa isn't uncommon. Narrow spaces between buildings are also not uncommon. And even then, they could have just been tipped off. Long story short, he was on their territory and was found, he knew it going in and it happened and they made a point to state it probably would happen. Yes, it was all very convenient, but it fell into action movie conventions more than a few times. And actually the action sequences were the worst part of the movie (the hotel being the exception), and I was disappointed that Nolan went that route.

Burnt Thru

Sorry, that's what I meant to say. The angle at which the view is shot is deliberately deceptive so that at first the narrowing of the way is not noticable but the buildings themselves don't move. That is certainly an experience I have had in a dream before.

RichC2

Paradox!

Burnt Thru

I'd say it was a psycholgical thriller with action scenes in it to justify its price tag by appealing to a broad audience. Governments have enough trouble keeping tabs on who is coming into their countries let alone corporations deciding to bribe all the customs agents to tell them if Cobb enters the country. Why would a company want to kill someone for failing to do their industrial espionage? That really doesn't make any sense, particularly for a film which attempts to play with a good deal more intelligence than most blockbusters.

Incidentally I just listened again to Michael Caine's dialogue and he really doesn't say much. One of his few lines is "Come back to reality." That is also somewhat supportive of the theory that this movie takes place almost entirely in Cobb's unconscious, with Caine possibly attempting to bring him back to America/reality. The movie starts in the middle of a scene with no idea how we go there, which fits into the later explanation of dreams and their own beginnings. None of that proves that the movie is all a dream but it is certainly indicative. For Cobb to actually be this secret agent he imagines would require him to be a genius psychologist as well as a James Bond style figure which seems pretty unlikely. One of my favourite descriptions of the films is "On her Majesty's Psychological Service".

RichC2

The same reason you turn a movie about mind manipulation into a series of action set pieces - to sell tickets. The whole Cobol Engineering was a bit off, and not in a dream sense, it was a subplot that allowed them to shoot an action scene in Kenya and it ultimately went nowhere, though I guess it is a thread for a sequel should they make one.

And yes it attempts to play with more intelligence, but it still over-explained and underutilized as it went along. Even simple things like explaining why the levels need to be mazes ultimately went to waste.

Burnt Thru

Then I suppose that is the difference between our interpretations of the film. You take it as an action movie with some problems with that action (some of them old cliches) which are the result of sloppy film-making. I suggest that the problems are deliberate and indicate the other level on which the movie is really operating. I guess we're bound to find our own interpretations more satisfying and coherent.

munch

In other words, he thinks you're a dumbass.

Jay G.

As long as you understand that both are interpretations. The film's ending is intended to be interpreted different ways, and Nolan doesn't tip his hand by providing any "clues" that aren't, at the least, ambiguous.

Burnt Thru

No, it could be that I'm reading to much into the movie. Thank you for playing though..

Groucho

Again, the only part that's intended to be ambiguous is the last scene (starting from when Cobb awakens on the plane) -- not the whole movie (which is actually quite straight-forward up until that point).

Burnt Thru

That's what I love about it. Fully resolved neat little packages are boring - the end of Galactica unfortunately fell down that particular well.

RocShemp

+1

jmu878

Interesting ranking. Mine go:

1. The Dark Knight
2. Inception
3. The Prestige
4. Memento
5. Batman Begins
6. Following
7. Insomnia

Although, I find Nolan's films hardest to rank among my favorite directors. The top 5 can really switch around on any given day, depending on my mood.

PopcornTreeCt

My ranking:

1. Memento
2. The Dark Knight
3. Batman Begins
4. Inception
5. The Prestige
6. Insomnia

hardercore

since everybody is being asked to list their Nolan rankings, or else:

1. The Dark Knight
2. Memento
3. Inception
4. Batman Begins
5. The Prestige
6. Insomnia

Following is in my queue of ones to get to.

riotinmyskull

1. inception
2. the prestige
3. memento
4. the dark knight
5. batman begins
6. following
7. insomnia