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Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

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Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Old 05-01-22, 11:24 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by Jay G.
it's not about how dedicated or rabid the fanbase is, it's about how much of widespread appeal the film has, especially to make it worth seeing in theaters.
There's never a surefire way to predict a films BO success. Some movies got a good reception at San Diego Comic-Con, so the studios started heavy movie promotions there. Then there would be cases like Snakes on a Plane. Great presentation there (big panel and a mockup of an airline fuselage on the exhibit floor), movie got a great reception....then tanked at the BO.
Old 05-01-22, 09:53 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by Jay G.
Everything is unprecedented until it's done. Before LOTR, it was unprecedented to greenlight a trilogy of films from the first film, and it's only been repeated with The Hobbit. Just because its unprecedented or rare doesn't mean it's bad.
Well yeah that's the definition of unprecedented. Um...I'm not arguing it was bad. Not sure where you got that from. I was just wondering if there's ever been a production like this before.

Originally Posted by Jay G.
Fair enough about you specifying domestic BO, which I missed. However, I don't know why you think domestic is a better metric, since the Avatar sequels are going to benefit from that giant overseas market, just like the first did, and was likely a major factor in Fox's decision to greenlight the sequels. Also, "All Time" is tricky for comparisons between films that are decades apart, since there's also ticket inflation, reduced number of films by major studios each year, and such to consider. It's telling that all but 1 in the top 10 domestic of all time are from the 2000s on, and most are 2010s on.
I already explained why I looked at domestic BO for the purposes of this discussion. And of course BO is complex and multifactorial everyone knows that.

Originally Posted by Jay G.
Are you still talking about domestic top 10 all time? Because I don't recall a rabid fanbase and/or franchise for Titanic before it came out.

Also, while Jurassic Park was popular, there's no "rabid fanbase" for that franchise as far as I know, and the franchise itself was dormant for over a decade (14 years), after experiencing a downward slide in BO of sequels, before Jurassic World came out. It seems like people just like seeing dinosaurs run rampage.

And, of course, Avatar is one of those top 10, which had no prexisting franchise nor fanbase.
I already stated it earlier in the discussion and thought you were paying attention so didn't repeat the point.

Fans definitely have a huge impact on the BO. Out of the top 10 domestic BO the only ones without a rabid fanbase is probably Avatar and Titanic

Originally Posted by Jay G.
Correlation is not causation, and while 7 out of 10 films maybe could be considered to have a "rabid fanbase," they were also just hugely popular films with widespread appeal. There's people that went to see The Avengers that hadn't seen any of the previous MCU films. And while franchises like F&F don't have "rabid" fanbases, people keep going to see them because they liked the previous entries, but their fandom is casual and they don't obsess about the films between entries, but still go see those films. I'm arguing that's the bulk of the audience for even those films and franchises that do have rabid fanbases. Rabid fanbases don't necessarily translate to box office success. I mean, Kevin Smith has a pretty rabid fanbase, and yet Jay and Silent Bob Reboot grossed less than $5 million.

Like, just a few months ago I recall everyone fretting about whether Dune Part 1 would make any money, despite it being based on one of the most acclaimed sci-fi novels ever. One can't depend on the rabid fanbase for success, since while vocal, they're ultimately a small niche. A movie needs widespread appeal outside just the dedicated fanbase, to casual viewers, in order to have real success.
I totally agree with you on all points. I think we're looking at two sides of the same coin. A movie definitely needs broad appeal to make it in the top 10 of all time in the BO. For sure to be a huge hit it needs wide appeal. And for sure rabid fanbases don't translate to box office success. Star Trek has a rabid fanbase and while their movies are successful and profitable I don't see them cracking the top ten because it doesn't have as wide appeal as Star Wars for example. So yes wide appeal is for sure very important to hit it big at the BO and way more important then a rabid fanbase. But IMHO, a big reason why 7 out of the top 10 movies are there is because of repeat business from a rabid fanbase and I think going forwards it's going to be increasingly difficult to crack the top ten without that fanbase. Of course this is all just my opinion and I think it's pretty impossible to prove because I'm not aware of any metric that somehow separates out repeat viewings from initial viewings.
Old 05-02-22, 07:17 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by tanman
Well yeah that's the definition of unprecedented. Um...I'm not arguing it was bad. Not sure where you got that from. I was just wondering if there's ever been a production like this before.
You were replying to me replying to someone criticizing the length of time between the Avatar releases. You did not make clear at all that you didn't also think the length of time was a negative.

Originally Posted by tanman
I already stated it earlier in the discussion and thought you were paying attention so didn't repeat the point.
Writing "almost all" instead of "all" isn't repeating the point, it's being correct. What you wrote wasn't correct, as you've pointed out.

Originally Posted by tanman
But IMHO, a big reason why 7 out of the top 10 movies are there is because of repeat business from a rabid fanbase and I think going forwards it's going to be increasingly difficult to crack the top ten without that fanbase.
There's a difference between "established audience" and "rabid fanbase." Again, F&F franchise regularly brings in big money despite not having a "rabid fanbase." An established audience helps, but arguably Avatar 2 has that. I just disagree that the fact that there's few Avatar cosplayers or sections of the internet of rabid fans tearing the original movie apart and analyzing/critiquing the film is going to significantly impact box office.

Originally Posted by tanman
I'm not aware of any metric that somehow separates out repeat viewings from initial viewings.
I found this quote from Beyond the Multiplex: Cinema, New Technologies, and the Home By Barbara Klinger
https://books.google.com/books?id=rg...ewings&f=false
While most films On the big Screen are generally lucky to draw a 2 percent repeat audience, blockbusters can entice as many as 20 percent of filmgoers to see the films again during their original runs.
That book notes that Titanic is one that had the really high repeat viewing rate of 20%, as does the book Pretty People: Movie Stars of the 1990s edited by Anna Everett:
[Titanic] boasted a shocking 20 percent repeat viewing rate, some of which was produced by the kind of eccentric moviegoing Hollywood was unaccustomed to at this time...
Of course, repeat viewings are separate from rabid fanbases. My Big Fat Greek Wedding famously had a long tail due to repeat viewings, but that didn't help the TV spin-off or movie sequel to be successful. Sometimes people just want to see a movie they really liked again. And of course, Avatar had a fair number of repeat viewings:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-SEB-21620
Now that "Avatar" has grossed more than $1,858,866,889 worldwide and officially set a new box-office record, it's fair to assume some portion of those mega-numbers are from repeat viewings... According to Chris Petrikin, a spokesperson for 20th Century Fox, the studio behind "Avatar," it "would be impossible to quantify" what percentage of the box-office take is from repeat viewings. But anecdotal evidence suggests people are seeing "Avatar" multiple times while it's still in theaters. On the Web site avatar-movie.org, one chat room user called MGrizzly said, "I just finished number 6 and can't say I won't keep going. Once in 2-D and the rest 3-D...I am running out of people to go with, but have no problem going alone."
There's some indication that studios now have estimates of repeat viewings, but they're not sharing real number. This article claims that Avengers: Endgame was 85% more repeat viewings that Infinity War did on Fandango (presumably the same account buying tickets for multiple showings), but doesn't give any percentages for either, suggesting it's rather low.
https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/av...-infinity-war/

As fans, we tend to think our impact on a film is bigger than it actually is for most mainstream projects, at least from an economic standpoint. We can make a lot of noise online though, but we're still a vocal minority.
Old 05-02-22, 06:11 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by Jay G.
That just supports my point. Even with his dedicated fanbase, Kevin Smith couldn't make a wide release of a sequel to his most popular series viable.

As you note, it's not about how dedicated or rabid the fanbase is, it's about how much of widespread appeal the film has, especially to make it worth seeing in theaters.
That has less to do with his fanbase and more to do with the fact that he pissed off Hollywood with his bullshit Red State stunt and he's still fighting to get back in.
Old 05-05-22, 02:22 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Just saw the teaser in front of Doctor Strange. I’m not super excited for this like I was for a new Cameron movie 13 years ago, but it looks alright.
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Old 05-05-22, 02:26 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by dex14
Just saw the teaser in front of Doctor Strange. Iím not super excited for this like I was for a new Cameron movie 13 years ago, but it looks alright.
Is it like a proper two minute trailer or is it super-short with only a brief look at anything?
Old 05-05-22, 03:38 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by dex14
Iím not super excited for this like I was for a new Cameron movie 13 years ago, but it looks alright.
I hope they use that for a blurb.

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Old 05-05-22, 04:22 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by Decker
Is it like a proper two minute trailer or is it super-short with only a brief look at anything?
Itís a teaser. Like 90 seconds.
Old 05-06-22, 02:51 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Man, the technology has certainly improved by leaps and bounds. Texture artists in the house rejoice! Looked fucking siiiiiiiiick! The crowd loved it at my screening.
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Old 05-06-22, 07:59 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

I'll say, I am not a fan of the first film story-wise, but the film looked amazing. More of the same from the brief bits we saw in teaser. This movie looks beautiful.
Old 05-07-22, 03:46 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Saw the trailer in front of Dr. Strange. Looked like more Avatar. Visuals were fine but it's the same dumb character design (make them weirdly tall but they have sex with their tails! Put more legs on that animal!)

Meh from me.
Old 05-07-22, 05:08 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

The story of the first movie was unremarkable at best and completely derivative at worst (Dances With Naívi). Thatís why no one feels passionate enough about the property to bother with cosplaying it. The first movieís success was completely due to its 3D gimmick. I doubt the sequels will be so lucky.
Old 05-07-22, 10:33 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Saw the teaser this evening before a screening of Doctor Strange In Multiverse of Madness.

Excitement!
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Old 05-08-22, 01:31 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by dex14
Itís a teaser. Like 90 seconds.
itís pretty much a solid 90 seconds of the film though. Itís not like some teasers that just show the logo and 10 seconds of the movie. Itís pretty satisfying and really got me excited for the movie.
Old 05-09-22, 09:36 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana




Set more than a decade after the events of the first film, “Avatar: The Way of Water” begins to tell the story of the Sully family (Jake, Neytiri, and their kids), the trouble that follows them, the lengths they go to keep each other safe, the battles they fight to stay alive, and the tragedies they endure. Directed by James Cameron and produced by Cameron and Jon Landau, the film stars Zoe Saldana, Sam Worthington, Sigourney Weaver, Stephen Lang, Cliff Curtis, Joel David Moore, CCH Pounder, Edie Falco, Jemaine Clement and Kate Winslet.

Last edited by dex14; 05-09-22 at 09:49 AM.
Old 05-09-22, 09:54 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Safe to say it will be the only 3D movie I watch this year.
Old 05-09-22, 10:21 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Safe to say I will only watch this in 2D. 3D on the first was more than enough.
Old 05-09-22, 10:43 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

^ i thought the 3D experience in the theater for the first one was one that i have not had before or since. it was truly extraordinary in my mind. didn't replicate to the Blu 3D quite the same way, but this is most enjoyed by me in 3D.
Old 05-09-22, 10:45 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by E Unit
Safe to say I will only watch this in 2D. 3D on the first was more than enough.
Same - the 3D in the first movie was distracting at best.
Old 05-09-22, 10:45 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

3D IMAX for me. I watched it like that in theaters and it was fantastic. The last film I wanted to see in that format was Alita and they played in DC 3D, but I missed since I was not an A-List member and each ticket was almost $30.
Old 05-09-22, 11:04 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by OldBoy
^ i thought the 3D experience in the theater for the first one was one that i have not had before or since. it was truly extraordinary in my mind. didn't replicate to the Blu 3D quite the same way, but this is most enjoyed by me in 3D.
Originally Posted by Draven
Same - the 3D in the first movie was distracting at best.
I didnít think it was a game-changing theatrical experience, but it was really good but more distracting than ďbeing in the movieĒ. That was also 13 years ago. I also came out with a migraine from hell. Now that I wear glasses, I donít think I want to do that again, no matter how good itíll potentially be in 3D. And if they decide to release it on disc in 3D, then Iíll get it and watch it at home.
Old 05-09-22, 12:07 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by OldBoy
^ i thought the 3D experience in the theater for the first one was one that i have not had before or since. it was truly extraordinary in my mind. didn't replicate to the Blu 3D quite the same way, but this is most enjoyed by me in 3D.
Totally agree here. For the most part, I don't like 3D flicks and avoid them when I can in theatre but Avatar was a sight to behold in that format and made up for the lackluster story. This will be the first 3D flick I see in theatre in a pretty long time.
Old 05-09-22, 12:27 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by E Unit
Safe to say I will only watch this in 2D. 3D on the first was more than enough.
Originally Posted by E Unit
I didn’t think it was a game-changing theatrical experience, but it was really good but more distracting than “being in the movie”. That was also 13 years ago. I also came out with a migraine from hell. Now that I wear glasses, I don’t think I want to do that again, no matter how good it’ll potentially be in 3D. And if they decide to release it on disc in 3D, then I’ll get it and watch it at home.
I distinctly remember a scene (and I think I talked about this in my initial thoughts in the review thread) of a briefing with the soldiers that looked like a diorama. I could clearly see each row of soldiers as completely flat but spaced out. It looked terrible and pulled me out of any immersion that was happening. And there were lots of "pointing things at the screen" to pull me out there too. It's like "I get it James, you're very excited about this old movie gimmick that went away for a reason".
Old 05-09-22, 03:47 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

I've never liked 100% CGI characters, so I'm more impressed by the scenery and planet landscape (even though that is 100% CGI too).

100% CGI talking and lip movement has never been perfected.

Old 05-09-22, 04:35 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

So this is a 100% animated movie from beginning to end, right?

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