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Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

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Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Old 04-28-22, 05:14 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

It’s Cameron’s own money. You know, they guy who wrote and directed the highest grossing movies of all time. I doubt he’s factoring your opinion when making these sequels.
Old 04-28-22, 05:41 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by B5Erik
I like the first one, but greenlighting 3 super expensive sequels more than a decade removed from the original was a huge risk, bordering on foolish.
Fox greenlit the first two sequels in 2010, a year after Avatar came out. It's just taken an extremely long time to produce them. I don't know if Fox ever got anxious due to the delays, but their contractual obligations and sunk cost maybe convinced them to keep with making them. Plus, nobody's yet gone broke betting on a James Cameron feature.

Originally Posted by E Unit
Itís Cameronís own money. You know, they guy who wrote and directed the highest grossing movies of all time. I doubt heís factoring your opinion when making these sequels.
It's not Cameron's money, it's Fox's (now Disney's) money. Only George Lucas was crazy enough to finance his movie sequels himself.

Fox/Disney do seem to be displaying a bit of caution, since only the first two sequels have been fully financed, and reportedly whether the 4th and 5th films get finished and released is contingent on the success of parts 2 and 3.
Old 04-28-22, 05:47 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

More info about the framerate of Avatar 2:
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/mo...on-1235135720/
Cameron, Landau and their Lightstorm Entertainment, along with 20th Century and Disney, is expected to offer Avatar 2 in a wide variety of formats to support the range of theater installations, including the use of 3D, 4K and a high frame rate of 48 frames per second.


So maybe the "use sparingly" quote was in regards to framerates above 48fps, like 60fps or 120fps?
Old 04-28-22, 06:11 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by E Unit
Itís Cameronís own money. You know, they guy who wrote and directed the highest grossing movies of all time. I doubt heís factoring your opinion when making these sequels.
A.) As noted above, it's not Cameron's own money.
B.) He hasn't done a movie in 13 years.
C.) Spielberg was the surefire box office guy before Cameron, but his name hasn't guaranteed big box office in a couple decades.

This is no lock to be a big hit. Only a fool would assume it's automatically going to be a megahit and turn a profit.

It might be a big hit, or it could follow the results of Independence Day. We don't know. Has being out of the game taken away Cameron's magic touch? It wouldn't be the first time.
Old 04-28-22, 06:40 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by B5Erik
B.) He hasn't done a movie in 13 years... Has being out of the game taken away Cameron's magic touch? It wouldn't be the first time.
Cameron hasn't been "out of the game," he's been actively writing/directing/producing 4 Avatar sequels during that time, in various stages of production. He also has a big list of movies and TV shows he's produced in the last 13 years.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000116/

"Out of the game" could maybe refer to George Lucas before the prequels, or Terrence Malick before The Thin Red Line, but not Cameron.
Old 04-28-22, 06:46 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by Jay G.
Cameron hasn't been "out of the game," he's been actively writing/directing/producing 4 Avatar sequels during that time, in various stages of production. He also has a big list of movies and TV shows he's produced in the last 13 years.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000116/

"Out of the game" could maybe refer to George Lucas before the prequels, or Terrence Malick before The Thin Red Line, but not Cameron.
Cameron hasn't directed a movie since 2009. That's out of the game. He hasn't written a movie that's seen release since 2009. That's out of the game.

And as much as I like Avatar, his script had problems (including a one dimensional villain with no real motivation other than being a prick).

He's 67. Does he still have the magic touch?

You don't know. I don't know.

And that's part of my point.
Old 04-28-22, 09:21 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by B5Erik
Cameron hasn't directed a movie since 2009. That's out of the game. He hasn't written a movie that's seen release since 2009. That's out of the game..
He hasn't released a movie that he's directed since 2009. He's been directing at least two movies since Avatar 2 started production in 2017. He's been involved in the writing of 4 sequels since shortly after Avatar came out, and he also has a screenwriting credit on Alita: Battle Angel in 2019.

You can also go back and look at the gap between Titanic (1997) and Avatar (2009), which was 12 years. Sure, he had a few documentaries and 1 TV episode between those, but that's still a long time between features. I think plenty were wondering if he'd lost his touch before Avatar came out.

Again, this isn't remotely like someone like Terrance Mallick, who was legit "out of the game" and not working on any films in any capacity for decades. You're ignoring the incredibly long pre-production these films have had. And it's not like the sequels were guaranteed to be any better if they had come out sooner. But it was by no means insane for Fox to greenlight two sequels to a movie that grossed them $2 billion worldwide back in 2010, only a year after the original film. The Matrix got two sequels greenlit for less, and then another greenlit years later. Pirates of the Caribbean seems to get endless sequels, with another possibly on the way. It's the basic, bone-stupid logic almost all studios use of "that thing made a lot of money, let's make another one."
Old 04-28-22, 10:10 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by Jay G.
Fox greenlit the first two sequels in 2010, a year after Avatar came out. It's just taken an extremely long time to produce them. I don't know if Fox ever got anxious due to the delays, but their contractual obligations and sunk cost maybe convinced them to keep with making them. Plus, nobody's yet gone broke betting on a James Cameron feature.


It's not Cameron's money, it's Fox's (now Disney's) money. Only George Lucas was crazy enough to finance his movie sequels himself.

Fox/Disney do seem to be displaying a bit of caution, since only the first two sequels have been fully financed, and reportedly whether the 4th and 5th films get finished and released is contingent on the success of parts 2 and 3.
I think that's what really sets this sequel apart. Yeah there have been plenty sequels with a really long period in between movies. But has there ever been a movie that has been greenlit and in production for this long? He's been working on these sequels for 12 years. That's a really long time. There definitely hasn't ever been this high profile of a movie that been in development for this long. I think that's what sets this apart. It's not like Tron where the OG movie was so long ago it exists in the realm of nostalgia and there's an interesting idea to pick up the story. It's not like Star Wars where there is an existing universe and picking up the story from that. This was one huge original movie that finally dethroned Titanic at the BO with sequels announced shortly after release that has been in continuous development this whole time. There's even been an entire theme park land built around this one movie. To top it all off it's not just one sequel but several being worked on at the same time. I don't think there's ever been such a long, drawn out and extensive (and expensive) sequel release ever. I'm extremely curious how this will perform at the BO.
Old 04-28-22, 10:16 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by Jay G.
It's the basic, bone-stupid logic almost all studios use of "that thing made a lot of money, let's make another one."
Is it stupid though really? If you think about it most sequels outgross their originals and they undoubtedly make a butt ton of money. Even the less successful sequels almost assuredly turn some kind of profit. Of course the creativity of pumping out constant sequels is a totally different argument but from a business stand point sequels are a pretty easy and smart move.
Old 04-28-22, 10:20 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

It’s not just about the film itself being in development, but developing the technology to effectively achieve what he’s setting out to do. Just like with the first film.
Old 04-28-22, 10:25 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

We can talk about HFR and laser projection in theaters all we want but the big question I have is will any movie theaters be willing to upgrade their projectors to be able to take advantage of all this new technology? I mean they all went through a pretty rough couple of years business wise and new projectors are extremely expensive. So is this mainly going to be a moot point if there's only a few theaters in the country that will be able to display Avatar 2 the way it's meant to be displayed?
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Old 04-28-22, 10:54 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by tanman
We can talk about HFR and laser projection in theaters all we want but the big question I have is will any movie theaters be willing to upgrade their projectors to be able to take advantage of all this new technology? I mean they all went through a pretty rough couple of years business wise and new projectors are extremely expensive. So is this mainly going to be a moot point if there's only a few theaters in the country that will be able to display Avatar 2 the way it's meant to be displayed?
That's an excellent point. It reminds me of 1930 when Fox came up with the original widescreen format (Grandeur). Only a handful of theaters could afford to upgrade AGAIN after upgrading for sound just a year or two earlier. Most theaters couldn't upgrade due to the cost (in the early stages of the Depression, no less).

So the format died after 2 or 3 movies (one of which was the John Wayne movie The Big Trail), and it wasn't picked up again for over 20 years.

I don't know what kind of upgrades will be needed to show this movie in the manner Cameron wants it shown, but if it requires new, expensive equipment, at a point when many theater chains are struggling just to stay open? Ain't gonna happen. Just like 1930.
Old 04-28-22, 11:07 PM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

I’m not even referring to technology for presentation. I’m talking about the years of development on the mocap system to film underwater, amongst other things.
Old 04-29-22, 12:14 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Yeah I read they were developing custom software for the editing process, including using metadata to track character info and probably other things. I think they even used custom scriptwriting software to keep track of everything across all movies.

On the presentation side, something I never knew, there were 100 different versions of the first movie, including accommodating different types of theaters, 18 of which were domestic.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...les-22027/amp/
Old 04-29-22, 01:58 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

I'll give it a shot when it pops up on Disney Plus.
Old 04-29-22, 04:51 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by dex14
Itís not just about the film itself being in development, but developing the technology to effectively achieve what heís setting out to do. Just like with the first film.
For sure. Another reason why this sequel is so different then others. To have such a huge film be in production for so long is unprecedented.

Originally Posted by dex14
Iím not even referring to technology for presentation. Iím talking about the years of development on the mocap system to film underwater, amongst other things.
Oh I know I wasn't directly responding to you. We were talking about two different things.
Old 04-29-22, 05:42 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by bluetoast
Yeah I read they were developing custom software for the editing process, including using metadata to track character info and probably other things. I think they even used custom scriptwriting software to keep track of everything across all movies.

On the presentation side, something I never knew, there were 100 different versions of the first movie, including accommodating different types of theaters, 18 of which were domestic.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...les-22027/amp/
Oh wow that's a lot of new information to me.

To optimize the experience for different screens sizes, Cameron made the decision to complete the movie in three aspect ratios: Scope (2:39:1), flat (1:85:1) and Imax (1:43:1). ďYou are not going to see many directors releasing in different aspect ratios, as most pick their canvas and that is their format,Ē Fox vp postproduction Steve Barnett says.
I had no idea he cut the movie in three different aspect ratios???

Creative decisions involving light levels also led to additional versions. 3D projection and glasses cut down the light the viewer sees, so ďAvatarĒ also had separate color grades at different light levels, which are measured in foot lamberts.

ďIf we had just sent out one version of the movie, it would have been very dark (in the larger theaters),Ē Barnett says. ďWe had a very big flow chart with all of the different steps, so we could send the right media to the right theater.Ē
I think this is a big reason why the latest 3D fad, well...faded. I think there were very few movies that took this into account and actually adjusted it. And once studios went the lazy route and started letting 3rd party companies just convert the film to 3D the quality started really going downhill.

Old 04-29-22, 09:14 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by tanman
Is it stupid though really? If you think about it most sequels outgross their originals and they undoubtedly make a butt ton of money. Even the less successful sequels almost assuredly turn some kind of profit. Of course the creativity of pumping out constant sequels is a totally different argument but from a business stand point sequels are a pretty easy and smart move.
I think Avatar's success was a "perfect storm" - everyone had forgotten that 3D is just a fad so they flocked to the theaters to see it (myself included). There wasn't a lot in theaters either - looking at the calendar, only RDJ's Sherlock Holmes was of note in December 2009....maybe Invictus.

But here we are 13 years later - no one ever talks about Avatar, the story is so simple that it is borderline childish (and it IS similar to Ferngully), Sam Worthington proved himself to be a flash in the pan as far as movie stars go, there is very little fandom to speak of and it rarely comes up in any conversation I ever hear outside of this thread. The idea that it's going to recreate the circumstances of 2009 in any way is hardly a given.

I will say that when I went to Disneyworld, the Flight of Passage was the coolest thing I did outside of Rise of the Resistance, but that had nothing to do with the story of Avatar and everything to do with the technology and presentation. It would have worked just as well with any setting.
Old 04-29-22, 10:19 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by tanman
Is it stupid though really? If you think about it most sequels outgross their originals and they undoubtedly make a butt ton of money.
I meant stupid in terms of not much thought is necessary or given to the decision, not that it necessarily turns out bad.

But often it seems like a sequel is greenlit before there's even an idea for what the sequel will be, or if the movie even justifies a sequel in any way. It just seems a question of math, like "this movie made X amount, which passed the mark Y for us greenlighting sequels." They seem to worry about minor details like plot later.

It also goes back to my thought is that a lot of studio greenlight decisions seem to be as much about mitigating risk as it is about making a successful movie. Sure, if the movie's a hit, everyone congratulates you, but if it bombs people start looking for someone/something to blame, so it helps to say, "hey, it's a sequel to a hit movie!" Nobody is going to be fired for greenlighting two sequels to the movie with the highest worldwide gross ever, even if they end up bombing.
Old 04-29-22, 10:30 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by Draven
There wasn't a lot in theaters either - looking at the calendar, only RDJ's Sherlock Holmes was of note in December 2009....maybe Invictus
Except that the reason for that is that every other studio was smart enough to get the hell out of the way when a big movie comes out, similar to how Avatarís weekend is pretty much empty this year.
Old 04-29-22, 10:32 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Well, AMC will be installing new laser system projectors, etc., so if there's a chain that may adopt this potentially new product, it will most likely be them. They're still sitting on a shit ton of cash. I could see them installing it at their flagship/metropolitan theaters here in L.A./Hollywood/NY.
Old 04-29-22, 10:38 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by tanman
I think that's what really sets this sequel apart. Yeah there have been plenty sequels with a really long period in between movies. But has there ever been a movie that has been greenlit and in production for this long?
Filming started in 2017, and there was this pandemic that has slowed everything down for the past 2 years.

Phil Tippett's movie Mad God is the result of 30 years of production, but that's an indie production self-financed for the most part, so there was no studio itching for a release date.

The Thief and the Cobbler was in production for 30 years until a compromised, unfinished cut was released.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thief_and_the_Cobbler

Boyhood was in production for 12 years, but that was actually part of the plan for the movie.

Evangelion: 3.0+1.0 Thrice Upon a Time was in production for 9 years, with a hold in the middle of that, which was extra frustrating because it was the fourth and final film in the series.

Wikipedia has an article about the longest production times. Most of them have a "gap" where the production actually halted for some time, maybe years or decades, so not quite the same as for Avatar 2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...roduction_time

Lord of the Rings was probably a bigger risk, as that was three films at once, and they didn't know if even the first film would be successful. Still, those movies came out faster, since they only started writing them in 1997, and the first film came out in 2001.
Old 04-29-22, 10:39 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by Draven
I think Avatar's success was a "perfect storm" - everyone had forgotten that 3D is just a fad so they flocked to the theaters to see it (myself included). There wasn't a lot in theaters either - looking at the calendar, only RDJ's Sherlock Holmes was of note in December 2009....maybe Invictus.

But here we are 13 years later - no one ever talks about Avatar, the story is so simple that it is borderline childish (and it IS similar to Ferngully), Sam Worthington proved himself to be a flash in the pan as far as movie stars go, there is very little fandom to speak of and it rarely comes up in any conversation I ever hear outside of this thread. The idea that it's going to recreate the circumstances of 2009 in any way is hardly a given.
Even at Science Fiction conventions Avatar has rarely been brought up until now. It didn't have any lasting power. It burned brightly for a year, and then practically disappeared. There are not die-hard Avatar fans the way there are for other genre movies and TV shows.

And given how Avatar had, arguably, the worst written villain of James Cameron's entire career, I'm not sure that his writing will be up to snuff this time. Avatar was ridiculously simple, and the villain was unbelievably one dimensional and, as I noted before, had no real motivation to do what he did other than being a prick. I came up with a great motivation in 2 minutes - let the material they're mining for be needed to avert an impending global environmental collapse on Earth. Make it life or death for billions of people, and suddenly the villain is well rounded and has a reason to be a prick - he'd be trying to save billions of lives. A lot would be at stake. But Cameron just went with a villain who's just a greedy prick? Lame. I liked everything else with the movie, but that one rather major detail did hurt the movie fairly badly.

So will Cameron do a better job? Or will he do what a lot of writers in their mid 60's do (just write more of the same, with no new ground broken)?

We'll see. I do like Avatar, and I'm halfway interested in seeing this in the theater - but I'm waiting for reviews first. I don't trust Cameron at this point. Not blindly. And not at the cost to see a movie in the theater these days.
Old 04-29-22, 10:48 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Sure. But if the movie is good, it'll make money. It's not like it is operating only on the residual excitement of the first.
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Old 04-29-22, 11:02 AM
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Re: Avatar: The Way of Water (2022, D: Cameron) S: Worthington, Saldana

Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler
Sure. But if the movie is good, it'll make money. It's not like it is operating only on the residual excitement of the first.
Well, lots of good movies tank at the box office and lose money. And is there really any excitement for Avatar 2? I mean, genuine excitement?

Hey, we're going to find out in December just how much people care about the Avatar world in 2022. It very well could be a megahit. Or it could be the next Independence Day 2.

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