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Sad State of Affairs (BW2 Book of Shadows is excellent)

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Sad State of Affairs (BW2 Book of Shadows is excellent)

Old 10-28-00, 08:34 PM
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I saw this movie Friday night and absolutely loved it. Judging by the reaction as we walked out of the theater, people were stunned at how good it was. I can't wait for it on DVD.

If you haven't noticed, hardly anyone goes to this site anymore because according to this forum, everything sucks. You would think that there are no good movies, ever. I have been visiting for over a year but never posted because I know it would just be met with vile comments. But now I don't care. I rarely visit anymore, along with apparently everyone else. You know what? Here are my top 10 favorite movies of ALL TIME:
1. Bram Stoker's Dracula
2. Romeo + Juliet (with leo and claire)
3. Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
4. Titanic
5. Blair Witch Project
6. The Patriot
7. Magnolia
8. Pulp Fiction
9. The Usual Suspects
10. The Matrix
Go ahead, I know you don't like these movies, so flame away. I don't care.

Cliches are not necessarily a bad thing, they can be useful in assuming that the audience knows certain information so it doesn't have to waste time setting up certain elements. So-called MTV style editing is not in and of itself bad. In fact, I think it's kind of cool. A movie is not necessarily bad just because it does well at the box office.

The Blair Witch Project was an excellent movie in my opinion, scariest of all time. People ran screaming out of the theater crying when I saw it.

Book of Shadows was an excellent movie, didn't think they could have a good follow up, but they did. Blew away all of my expectations. Great story, very scary, very well done.

Titanic was an exceptionally emotional movie. I don't know a single person that thinks otherwise outside of this forum.

The Patriot was an even more emotionally involved, fictional story than Braveheart.

Even Patch Adams was an excellent movie.

So go ahead, I dare you to flame away. Talk about MTV Style editing. Talk about cliches. Talk about emotional manipulation. Talk about backlash. Talk about sap. It all doesn't matter, because these are all good movies. So forget you, I will enjoy movies without you people, thank you very much.

Old 10-28-00, 08:38 PM
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Um... alrighty there pal!

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Old 10-28-00, 08:42 PM
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I admire you man, I really do. First of all, I agree with you about how the people here at DVDTalk view mainstream movies, and second, I like most of the movies on your list. I am very glad you posted this, because I am going to see BW2 in about an hour and I have only heard bad things thus far. With your taste in movies, I know now that BW2 will probably be my type of movie. I loved the first one and hardly anyone else did. Thanks for having some balls.



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Old 10-28-00, 08:44 PM
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Maybe the guy is an S&M freak and he likes to get flamed... well I'm not really in the mood to flame you. I don't really mind if you have your own taste in movies. That's great for you if that's your list of favorites. I thought this was going to be a thread about BW2. Why would you visit this site for a year in lurker mode and then one day decide to come out of the closet and yell at us for no good reason? Just join up and say what's on your mind... you don't have to apoligize for your opinions here. We're not eliteists here.
Old 10-28-00, 09:00 PM
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I agree, I loved it. This will have the same affect as the first I believe. Those who hate it will despise it cause it's not a monsterfest/gorefest(although there is some gruesome moments) and those who liked it will be surprised at how the film was executed.

Admittedly, I went it not expecting to like it, but Joe Berlinger's direction is quite disarming and the perfect choice for this. I would love to go on more about the plot but, doing so will take the mystery away. I recommend this for those who look for more in a horror film and cry about how they hate teen slashers and Hollywood horror.

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Old 10-28-00, 09:16 PM
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I liked the first one, but BW2 sucks worse than a 10 cent whore. You couldn't pay me enough to watch that drudge again.
Old 10-28-00, 09:42 PM
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Well, there's not a bad movie on that list..not all of them are on my favorites list, but they're all at least pretty good.

-JeTmAn

P.S. cartman, check this website out: http://southpark.fleish.org/realvideo/
Old 10-28-00, 09:43 PM
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I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but judging from your selection for top10, I can safely say that I will not like Blair Witch 2 one bit. Thanks!
Old 10-28-00, 09:53 PM
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This belongs in the At The Movies Forum.
Old 10-28-00, 10:28 PM
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Moving to At the Movies forum.

--Heather
Moderator, DVD Talk & Reviews forums
Old 10-28-00, 11:07 PM
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I needed proof that we are witnessing the slow death of the critical mind. I guess I have it.
Old 10-28-00, 11:12 PM
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wrath88: You are confusing obstinance and arrogance with courage and forthrightness.

Your list of "favorites" is, with few exceptions, composed of films with little if any artistic merit beyond the most superficial. Holler all you want to, but you have poor taste in movies, sir. Still, a knowledge and appreciation of what separates the cinematic wheat from the chaff is not necessary around here, only helpful. And luckily, we post our monickers, so your posts can be skipped by discriminating readers.
Old 10-28-00, 11:36 PM
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First, wrath88, let me say that this is not a flame. This is an honest response to your post and I'll avoid any desultory language - promise.

Second, let me say that of the movies you named, three are widely held in very high regard around these parts (The Matrix, The Usual Suspects, and Pulp Fiction); three have drawn very mixed reviews, with many fans and many critics (The Patriot, Magnolia, and The Blair Witch Project); and only one is universally regarded as a bad film (Titanic). (I haven't read many opinions of the first three on your list, since they're older films.) So it's hardly fair to conclude that we criticize everything here. For most movies, you'll find some thumbs-up and some thumbs-down among DVD Talk viewers.

So what about Titanic? Let me say that I found the actual sinking bit to be quite compelling the first time I saw it. But a wide variety of complaints are launched against it, such as:
  • First and foremost, a large part of the movie is taken from the 1958 Titanic movie called A Night to Remember. I don't just mean the boat sank in both films - I mean that many scenes played out exactly the same in both movies; many characters in the 1997 version seem modeled exactly after characters in the 1958 version; even certain lines of dialogue are taken wholesale from the earlier film. I recently saw A Night to Remember and stared in wide-eyed amazement at the whole thing - it was like I was watching a black-and-white version of the older movie (with Leo, Kate, and Celine Dion edited out.)
  • The main "new" part in the whole movie is the romance between Kate and Leo, which rubbed many people the wrong way. Many commented that the romance seemed contrived and unbelievable. I'm not sure I completely agree, but I can point to certain parts that just don't seem realistic.
  • The romance between Kate and Leo seemed even more tarnished by Billy Zane, who played a particularly one-dimensional villain. Throughout the movie, he sneered at the lower class, abused Kate, mocked Van Gogh paintings, and deceived everyone - aside from throwing old people overboard, he couldn't have been more thoroughly "evil." He didn't seem human; rather, he seemed like a cardboard cutout with a big "I'm bad, hate me" sign hung around his neck. The best villains in movies aren't thorougly loathsome; they're human and in some ways likeable and vulnerable.
  • The rampant popularity of the film didn't help, either. The Celine Dion song grated on everyone's nerves after we heard it 400 times in a row on the radio, on TV, everywhere. And seeing Titanic take the Oscar for Best Picture away from L.A. Confidential - a much better film in many aspects (if not so rabidly popular among teenage girls) - angered many DVD Talkers, who also happen to be film buffs.

    Now, how about Blair Witch 2? I've been very eagerly awaiting this film, since I am a big fan of the first one - although rough around the edges, it was one of the most original and thrilling films of 1999. But the independent reviews I've read of it have been universally terrible! Of course, I'm not going to express an opinion on it 'til I've seen it, which I probably will in the next week or so - but my hopes are not very high.

    quote:<HR>Originally posted by wrath88:
    So forget you, I will enjoy movies without you people, thank you very much.<HR>


    Well, if you're going to write off all of our opinions wholesale - even after the justifications I've given above - I think I speak for many when I write that you're not being forced to read our reviews. But it's good to have some balance and perspective in these Forums, even if some of the more "elite" types get a bit passionate in their feelings about films. Basically, this being the Internet, you'll likely find outspoken and heavily opinionated people wherever you go; but it's my impression that DVD Talkers are a more open, accepting bunch than most. Hopefully, you'll stick around and contribute - your opinions are welcome.

    (edit) For the people who posted above: I'm actually a bit ashamed of you. wraith88 is obviously feeling excluded from the DVD Talk community by somewhat "elitist" reviews - and your responses only reinforce that. Balance is good, guys - and remember that movies aren't just made with "technical merit" in mind to appease film critics, but for a much broader audience - and that's not always a Bad Thing.

    - David Stein


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    Why is that?

    [This message has been edited by sfsdfd (edited October 28, 2000).]
Old 10-28-00, 11:48 PM
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quote:<HR>Originally posted by Laughing Gravy:

Your list of "favorites" is, with few exceptions, composed of films with little if any artistic merit beyond the most superficial. Holler all you want to, but you have poor taste in movies, sir. Still, a knowledge and appreciation of what separates the cinematic wheat from the chaff is not necessary around here, only helpful. And luckily, we post our monickers, so your posts can be skipped by discriminating readers.
<HR>


Woops, for whoever said he didn't have to worry about posting his favorite films here and that we aren't elitists....I think I found an elitist. It's nice that Laughing Gravy gets to decide what films have artistic merit and which don't. Hey, Laughing Gravy, what are some films that are worth it since I guess you know all about films and if we don't agree with you then "we have poor taste in movies" as you said.

Oh, and sfsdfd, I don't think everybody thinks Titanic is a bad film. Just most people on here. A lot of people still like it.



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Old 10-28-00, 11:52 PM
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quote:<HR>Originally posted by badger1997:
Oh, and sfsdfd, I don't think everybody thinks Titanic is a bad film. Just most people on here. A lot of people still like it.<HR>


Yeah, obviously people like it - it's the top-grossing movie of all time - but I was talking about the reactions of DVD Talkers to the movie and the reasons they/we give.

- David Stein


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Ever notice that professional female pool players are incredibly hot, but professional female bowlers look like bulldogs?

Why is that?
Old 10-28-00, 11:57 PM
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Nice top 10 wrath. Personally I think like 4 of those are bad movies, but that's the point eh? I'm just not a fan of emotionally manipulative movies. I did just see Magnolia recently though, and it was awesome. Kind of dragged between the end of hour 2 and just before the ending though.

I'll have to see BW2 judging by the conflicting reviews...
Old 10-29-00, 01:12 AM
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badger: I am not an elitist, but I can tell a good movie from a bad one. Either YOU can or you can't, regardless of what I think.

Seen anything good lately?
Old 10-29-00, 01:42 AM
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quote:<HR>Originally posted by wrath88:
Here are my top 10 favorite movies of ALL TIME:<HR>


You're either on crack or you're 12.
Why dont you see more movies before making such a half-assed list like that? Those are really you favorite movies of ALL TIME? ALL TIME??? Damnit, that really pissed me off.

Romeo and Juliet better than Apocalypse Now? Dr. Strangelove? Blade Runner?

Blair Witch Project better than Miller's Crossing? Clockwork Orange? Mean Streets?

Frankenstein better than Taxi Driver? Goodfellas? Godfather 1 and 2?

Dracula better than Raging Bull? Days of Heaven? Close Encounters of the Third Kind?

Patriot better than Brazil? Fargo? Witness? West Side Story? Gone with the Wind?

NO F**KING WAY!!!!
Old 10-29-00, 01:45 AM
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quote:<HR>Originally posted by Laughing Gravy:
wrath88: You are confusing obstinance and arrogance with courage and forthrightness.

Your list of "favorites" is, with few exceptions, composed of films with little if any artistic merit beyond the most superficial. Holler all you want to, but you have poor taste in movies, sir. Still, a knowledge and appreciation of what separates the cinematic wheat from the chaff is not necessary around here, only helpful. And luckily, we post our monickers, so your posts can be skipped by discriminating readers.
<HR>


If you don't agree with his taste in movies, then don't see the movies he recommends. Who are you to say what has "artistic merit"? Are you a critic or something? Probably not. I'm sure if you put a list of your favorite movies there would be some really bad movies, or some pretentious crap that you only "enjoy" because criterion put it out.
Why flame anyone else over their OPINION?



Old 10-29-00, 01:17 AM
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quote:<HR>Originally posted by sfsdfd:
Yeah, obviously people like it - it's the top-grossing movie of all time <HR>


Um, its not the top grossing movie of all time. Gone with the Wind still is.

Two reasons why Titanic made a load of cash.

1) No competition
2) Teenage girls
Old 10-29-00, 03:24 AM
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Wow, thanks everyone. In the short time this thread has been up, it has been a great test. I'm glad you resorted to calling me "an S&M freak," that I'm "either on crack or [I'm] 12," and that I'm the proof of "the slow death of the critical mind." That just confirms everything I was trying to get across.

Yes, this really is my top 10, whether you like it or not. That's not to say I don't like other great movies, such as others suggested previously. I just like the ones I said better.

Obviously Book of Shadows wasn't going to please critics (or backseat critics) no matter what because it couldn't possibly live up to the originality (I realize there have been other similar movies, I'm talking about mainstream originality) and style of the first one. I just wish we could get past that. Enjoy or hate the movie because of what it is, not because of what the first one was.

This goes out to sfsdfd--thank you for an intelligent, well stated, and nonemotional response, although I have to disagree with you. I think the romance worked very well, and that being the whole point of the movie makes it the best addition. If you didn't think the romance worked, I'm obviously not going to argue with your feelings. And the fact that people "got sick of it" proves one of my original points. That it was almost a remake of an earlier film doesn't really take away from it for me. Really, most movies are remakes of earlier movie concepts or books, just maybe the newer or screen version is done better. I'm not going to sit here and say that movies are better than books, because 99% of the time they aren't, with two notable exceptions. First is my favorite movie Dracula. In the book, Dracula is killed on the boat on his way back to Transylvania, making it a fairly good horror story. The movie, on the other hand, takes it to a higher level by having Dracula escape and having Mena have to finish him off, thus making it a story of romance crossing time and redemption. The other movie (can't wait for the backlash on this) is Romeo + Juliet. The movie version fixed some of the problems I had with the original play by the almighty Shakespeare, most notably the end scene. The movie has only Romeo and Juliet in the final scene, and the part where Juliet wakes up just as Romeo is drinking the poison allows for maximum emotional impact. So basically, I liked Titanic, you didn't. But you were able to say it in an intelligent, nonthreatening way, which is exactly the kind of dialog I enjoy and that should be taking place in this forum. I hope you will come back to this thread and post your review of Book of Shadows if/when you get a chance to see it. Just please do it without using words like "10 cent whore."

Thanks to everyone who was angered and questioned the artistic merit of the films that I like. It seems to me that artistic merit in anything is based on a panel of high and mighty judges somewhere, and by that I guess we would have to look at the Academy, who handed out many awards to Titanic, a movie that most of you hate. So if you think you can decide the artistic merit of a film for others, then go right ahead and keep getting angry. I try to show my friends all of the films that I really like, and more often than not they truly enjoy them. Even when they don't, we don't sit and deride each other, we try to have an intelligent debate.

zhensel--Thanks for the kind comments, although you bring up another good point--emotional manipulation. My premise is that all movies are emotionally manipulative, just that movies you like manipulate toward emotions for which you have a stronger propensity. I wish people wouldn't dismiss others emotions (not saying you did).

Thanks also to Cereal-Killer for having the courage to back me up, even though you know it could mean flame-city for you. I am especially joyed that you mentioned Joe Berlinger's direction, because I completely agree with you that it was excellent, and it is one of the main points of mockery with the critics. If he would ever accidentally visit this site after being down because of all the negativity, I would like to personally tell him I loved his work.

Mostly, thanks to caiman. I hope you go see it, and I hope you like it. Even if you don't, I was hoping to get at least one person to go and see it without any prejudice based on critical opposition.

So keep pretending that you are the person who decides which movies are good and which are not. Keep pretending that you decide what has artistic merit and what does not. I wasn't trying to separate the wheat from the chaff in movies, because that is up to you. Notice I called the list my top 10 favorite movies, not the 10 best movies. I was trying to separate the wheat from the chaff in posters who can and cannot understand that different people like different movies. Honestly, how many of you can say you agree with most critics? Please keep the replies coming, intelligent or otherwise. They bring a smile to my face.
Old 10-29-00, 03:38 AM
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i just don't understand why people aren't allowed to talk about movies they love without people putting them down. You know what, I may love a movie like Godfather and another person may think it's overrated crap and prefer Titanic. And others might like both. You know what? That's great!! Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and it's jerks that rip into them for their tastes that makes some people afraid of posting on DVDtalk.

It was said in here that a movie is either good or bad period. That's complete and utter bullsh*t. Judging movies is a subjective thing and if some people prefer Armageddon over a movie like Insomnia or vice versa, or prefers Blair Witch over Raging Bull, their opinion is just as right as yours. They like that movie, therefore it is a good movie to them. Leave them alone and let people have their opinions.

You know Frank Black, I don't agree with many of wrath98's picks, but i also didn't care for some of the movies you said were better than his. Not a big fan of Raging Bull, Apocolypse Now, Close Encounters, Brazil and some others. Some of them I recognized as great films but not of my taste. Others I simply did not care for, like Witness or Days of Heaven. Just because I don't care for those films, doesn't make my judgement any worse than any others.

I feel limiting a list to top ten is too restrictive. My favorite movies are:

Airplane, Godfather I, Godfather II, Dr. Strangelove, North By Northwest, Maltese Falcon, Treasure of the Sierra Madre, Singing in the Rain, Chasing Amy, Dances With Wolves, The Great Escape, Dog Day Afternoon, Groundhog Day, A Fish Called Wanda
The Good, The Bad and the Ugly, The Muppet Movie, The Producers, The Shawshank Redemption and Thunderheart.

Oh, and of cource The Malibu Bikini Shop

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Old 10-29-00, 03:47 AM
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wrath88: you forgot to thank the academy...

Frank Black: the fact that you criticize wrath and then go on to post about 2.3x10^26 Scorcese (yeah spelling I know) films in your lists of movies he should have in his top 10 shows just how subjective movie favorites are. And West Side Story? Just a simple no-edit screen adaption of the musical. Hardly worthy of any "Top 10" merit outside of the Tony Awards. JETS! SHARKS! RUUUMMMMBBLEEE!

SFSDFD: You really can't let it get to you any more when a film gets an Oscar that it doesn't deserve. The Oscar's have been bought forever (except for every 5 years or so when they pick a foreign film *COUGH life is beautiful COUGH* to lend some legitimacy to their selections). Titanic deserved it in that they payed the most money to get it. You really can't take away from the film on any technical aspects. The real ironic thing is that the weak part of the movie was the lead acting (leo, kate, billy) yet it was that damn Leo punk who complained before the show.

btw, I thought Dracula got killed in a warehouse type thing in the book? I haven't read it for a few years. I do remember a boat scene where he became the fog, but I thought he died later once they reached town.
Old 10-29-00, 05:09 AM
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Unfortunately there are way too many people on here who feel that there tastes are more valid than others. I have trashed movies on here before, but I don't believe I have ever trashed anyone taste in movies.

But then again, Goonies would probably be somewhere on my top 10 favorite movies.. so what do I know.

Old 10-29-00, 06:50 AM
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quote:<HR>Originally posted by Frank Black:
Um, its not the top grossing movie of all time. Gone with the Wind still is.<HR>


Only if you adjust its gross to the current dollar value. The Internet Movie Database lists Titanic as the top-grossing movie of all time, with $1.2 billion dollars internationally.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Frank Black:
Two reasons why Titanic made a load of cash.

1) No competition
<HR>


Titanic had a LOT of competition - it was released on a particularly crowded release date with other hotly-anticipated movies clamoring for Holiday shoppers' tickets. The IMDB reports that opening on the same day as Titanic and running concurrently with it were Tomorrow Never Dies, The Boxer, and Oscar best-picture nominee As Good as It Gets. Also competing with Titanic for holiday movie tickets were these movies that opened one week before (December 12 - IMDB link here): Scream 2, Deconstructing Harry, and Home Alone 3 opened.

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Frank Black:
2) Teenage girls<HR>


Sure, as I acknowledged, the rather shocking popularity of the film for teenage girls buoyed up the figures a bit. But a film does not make $600 million domestically and win an Oscar for Best Picture solely because of its popularity among any one group. The fact is that a large portion of America turned out to see this film, and many viewers (yes, even outside the teenage-girl demographic) very much enjoyed the film.

- David Stein

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Ever notice that professional female pool players are incredibly hot, but professional female bowlers look like bulldogs?

Why is that?


[This message has been edited by sfsdfd (edited October 29, 2000).]

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