Original Desmond

interesting most of the scenes mentioned are from films at least 10 years old. Has Hong Kong action cinema dipped that much ?

Ash Ketchum

Hmmm...not only Don Knotts, but a W.C. Fields fan as well. (That is a good line.)

BTW, I went to your public profile and this is what it said:
Mine puts it a little more gently:

Luther Heggs

I don't play well with others. I run with scissors, too.
That's the way it is for everybody; your own profile reads differently than someone else's.

Also, despite the rest of the movie, I like this fight from Gorgeous:

Brian T

Hong Kong cinema hasn't dipped, it's evolved. That it did so away from martial arts movies in no way means it isn't producing worthy productions. Granted, there aren't as many films being made as there once was (which constitutes a different kind of dip, sadly), and a lot of the top shelf talent (both behind and in front of the camera) has little choice but to pander to the mainland market if they want to maintain a profile (bye-bye nihilistic endings), but local productions are still very much worth seeing, whether they be action movies, romantic comedies, crime thrillers, you name it. The city itself is one of the most amazing on earth, and it's home to some of the most unique regional cinema out there. But it's not all about fighting anymore. And you sometimes have to do a little research to confirm the pedigree.

Brian T

A shootout is a gunfight, and Hong Kong choreographers put just as much work into them as they do into martial arts combat sequences. Arguably more because of all the technical/equipment/FX considerations that must be taken into consideration.

PLEASE people, upload more gunfight clips. They count!


Agreed in principle, BUT I'd be even happier if more of you would buy the actual Hong Kong DVDs of these titles, thus more directly supporting the actual industry that produces the films you know you love, and skip the American distributors altogether. You wait for them, you'll die of old age before you can even scratch the surface. The vast majority of clippage in this thread seems to come from films that have been released in the U.S. That's fine, but there's a lot of fantastic stuff that will never see the light of day in North America (except as imports via YesAsia, etc.), such as:

Frankie Chan's BURNING AMBITION:
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Nam Nai-choi's KILLER'S NOCTURNE:
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Andrew Kam's FATAL TERMINATION (OK, so this one is more like stunt-fu, but . . . tough!)
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Joe Cheung's RETURN ENGAGEMENT (yes, a gunfight)
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or Tommy Wong Chan-yeung's THE MIGHTY GAMBLER
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Solid Snake

really? I see more from the 80s and below.

Brian T: You are correct. I mean, look at the 90s. Wong Kar Wai comes out and that's totally different from what one would expect from HK. Again...this too affects his bankability over there to I hear.

Do you think maybe it's too much of western influence on HK cinema? I'm not saying the films we brought up suck but...I see a lot more explosions and quick cuts,etc much like we're known to do here. I think the 80s is my favorite decade for HK cinema.

Brian T

It's just market realities; the local cinema is still lively and vibrant, is less prolific than before. Hong Kong, a city not a country remember, produced a body of action filmmaking that, for a time, rivaled that of any other country on earth. But 1997 had an impact. Once China settled in, Hong Kong cinema got tamed. Not right away, but over time. The city's industry still produces phenomenal, flavourful LOCAL cinema (Soi Cheang's ACCIDENT being a sterling recent example), but they tend to observe certain boundaries and favour certain unthreatening genres (comedies, romances), whereas before there were none, which resulted in some of the incredible films represented by the clips in this thread.

I don't know about more explosions and quick cuts per se in Hong Kong cinema versus anywhere else. I certainly don't see it, but I watch everything from Hong Kong, and the craft of filmmaking, I think, has certain universal aspects (shorthands?) that are utilized by filmmakers in all cultures.

I am glad that there are still filmmakers willing to produce martial arts action movies (like Donnie Yen, most obviously). The lack of "martial arts stars" doesn't really bother me, nor does seeing pin-up boy/model types trying their hand at fighting. Hong Kong choreography is as much about making non-martial artists look like seasoned pros as it is about showcasing the skills of actual martial artists. They did it in the 70s more than you may realize, right through the 90's to today. As long as it looks good, and maybe even reasonably authentic, that's the key to what makes Hong Kong action cinema so unique above all others.

Solid Snake

Yeah, I can see that. It's funny to me, my whole early childhood was dominated by the Bruce Lee Exploitation flicks AND the great flicks we all know and love. And it's rather interesting to see that the sub genre I love and admire soo much, even for it's lowering number in our recent times, is in a way evolving into something I don't want at the moment. I respect that industry, even the crap films they have always had something interesting, it's just sad to see less of what we love out of the action genre. I would say that it's also the lack of stars as great as those we've mentioned before.

Donnie Yen has been around for a while yeah but he's getting stronger, which is great for him and us, in that industry. I'd like to see more female action starred flicks. It's kinda sad that in recent times it's pretty much Michelle Yeoh who tapped that. As you said before, about making non martial artists look like pros it's probably a greater effect on the opposite gender side of things. I know Yeoh used stuntwomen (sometimes they were men too) but the lack of a female star of that quality it really impacting I think as well. Zhang Ziyi is fun to see ,cuz much like Yeohcan act and do action, but it's never in the non Wuxia style.

Ash Ketchum

Then why did you object when I proposed a Megan Fox/Ellen Page action film directed by Corey Yuen?

Solid Snake

I was talking the vein of Michelle Yeoh style I guess you can call it. No offense, as much as it can be possible, Yeoh commanded a presence that Fox and Page cannot do in the HK style or the US style for that matter. In the states, it's a lot harder to convince us on your premise. I mean who was the last believable badass female in a good film here in the states? Kate Beckinsale (to an extent I guess in Underworld)Uma Thurman and Angelina Jolie perhaps? before that? Linda Hamilton? and before that....the probably greatest 180 for a character to do the defensive to head on offensive...Ripley in Aliens (played Sigourney Weaver). It's hard as hell to make us believe a woman can kick ass here in the states. Like to really sell us on that idea.

Meglos

Because the idea of a Megan Fox/Ellen Page action movie is laughable?

(as much as I'm fond of Page...)

Brian T

But can you comfortably say you've seen everything the genre has already made for you? There are a lot of action films from the 70s, 80s and 90s that remain rather obscure in comparison to a lot of the films showcased in the clips in this thread, in part because they were independent productions, or didn't topline "Big Stars" or were frankly just lost to the sands of time. But they're out there, and I sure don't see a lot of people writing about them (a good example from my clips would be MIGHTY GAMBLER).

I have somewhat of an advantage living in a city with no fewer than six Chinatowns, so I'm able to find a LOT of movies that have received NO attention online, and little more than that in print (of course, there may have been fanzine coverage back in the day, but I don't count those because of their miniscule readerships).

I do agree, in a way, that even Hong Kong's "crap" films have something interesting to offer, but that's an admitted bias on my part because the city itself fascinates me, so just seeing a movie shot there earns it some goodwill.



There are few female martial arts stars, then or now, in the Hong Kong industry that didn't use stunt doubles. Even Yukari and Michiko. It may sound a bit sexist, and I assure you it's not meant that way, but women just aren't built for the kinds of things Hong Kong filmmakers expect their characters to do on screen. So they stick wigs on men. But, as I said, if it looks convincing, I'm cool with it.

The only person I think may have a bright future in HK action filmmaking --and she's certainly expressed an interest--is Lisa Cheng, but I'm sure she'd be doubled for any truly wild stuff.

Brian T

I think some U.S. filmmakers do an alright job of convincing us that women can kick ass. They just do it differently, and bring different cultural baggage to it, than the Hong Kong Chinese. Granted, there's no one A-list American actress who's exclusively known as an ass-kicker, but I doubt there are many actresses who would want to be typecast that way.

Some Hong Kong action actresses actually grew frustrated with being typecast this way, despite being utterly convincing on screen. I believe Moon Lee and Sharon Yeung are two examples. (Yeung even vents her frustration in one of Toby Russell's old Hong Kong cinema documentaries).

As silly as it is, Rick Jacobsen's goofball ode to Russ Meyer and exploitation cinema, BITCH SLAP, outdoes itself trying to prove chicks can fight, and towards its climax, actually pulls it off in an extended punch up constructed with smart camerawork, editing, sound design and choreography (the girls help sell it, too). It's more street fighting than martial artistry, but you really feel the blows.

Solid Snake

See that's not totally true. I mean, we had Jackie Chan do stuff that was thought almost impossible. There are women out there who can probably do that stuff. They just need to be pushed (I don't mean forced but put in that moment where they've got do it for the sake of the filmmaking) or praised to do it. I mean, look at that girl that did Chocolate, seemed like she did all her stuff. I haven't seen the film but from what I saw it looked all of her stuff.

adding some more, I'm sad to see how Brad Allan (aka the white guy in black fighting Chan in Gorgeous clip is up above btw)isn't as well known as he should be. Glad to see that he did do some behind the hide stuff on films like HB2, Kick-Ass, etc. He really has some physical talent. He alone is the most standout out of from what came out of the Jackie Chan Stunt Team.

Chan vs. Benny "The Jet" Urquidez:
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Dragons Forever end fight awesomeness:
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Ash Ketchum

The best female-centered action picture I've seen come out of Hollywood (not counting classic westerns like ROSE OF CIMARRON) is THE LONG KISS GOODNIGHT (1996) with Geena Davis. I would love to see that remade, not because it needs to be remade, but only because I'd love to see other great actresses in that incredible role, starting with Angelina Jolie. Or maybe even a sequel with her in the role.

And why not remake Corey Yuen's SO CLOSE (2002) with...you knew it was coming, didn't you?...Megan Fox in the Shu Qi role, Ellen Page in the Vicky Zhao Wei role, and...[drum roll please] Angelina in the Karen Mok role. Wouldn't THAT be awesome? And put Jason Statham in there somewhere. Diablo Cody could supply dialogue and Corey Yuen could direct again. I ask you, what's not to love there?

Solid Snake

no offense but I just can't see Fox or Page doing crazy HK stuff. Page maybe, she seems smaller so if trained well I think she could pull it off, but to sell it would be harder. Fox I don't can convince me of her actually kicking ass.



Another classic Sammo, Jackie, and Yuen fight, as you can tell these guys are my favorites:

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Brian T

No, basically it's true. There may be women out there who can "probably" do that stuff, but they haven't shown up in Hong Kong pictures ever. This is not to slight Hong Kong's female action stars. Plenty of them do (or did) perform their own stunts, beautifully, but there's never been a single one who performs all their own stunts, nor are there many male stars who can say the same. They're stars, and even in Hong Kong where insurance policies weren't heard of, they still didn't let stars take unnecessary risks (or waste their time filming inserts of arms, lets, impacts, etc). Let them be doubled, I say (preferably by someone who bears a physical resemblance). As long as the seams don't show, and the performers even do some of the physical stuff on their own, it's fine. Top-line talent, even in martial arts and action movies, needn't take unnecessary risks, or wild shit like this ends up happening:

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JeeJa was doubled too. Just not very much, thankfully. It's just part of the business.

RocShemp

You're Satan, aren't you?

And So Close was awesome. Can you really imagine Megan Fox, Ellen Page, and Angelina Jolie doing anything remotely resembling this?

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Solid Snake

Hrm...guess I need to see So Close. Honestly speaking, Ellen Page could convince me more of her actually kicking ass over Fox. At least she can act pretty good, Fox is still too early to tell whether or not she even has acting chops. I won't count the Transformers films cuz well....it's not her job to act in those films. I guess she was "ok" or "horrible" in Jennifer's Body?

Also I miss the international aspect of the HK films of recent. A lot more international fighters in these films a while back.

Prodigal Son w/ Yuen Biao...

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Ip Man:

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Bruce Lee vs. (Beardless and hairy chested) Chuck Norris aka Way of The Dragon aka Return of the Dragon here in the US.
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terrible chong

i approve of this entire thread

terrible chong

btw props to Donnie Yen for incorporating MMA techniques into that Flashpoint fight scene

Solid Snake

Yeah, he did some MMA before Flash Point (though it's not as extensive) with Sammo Hung in SPL aka Kill Zone here in the States.

Though the ending to the fight is extremely farfetched...I mean c'mon. That was a bit TOO much for my taste, otherwise it's great fight.
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RocShemp

Yeah, the flip/throw onto the bottles was over the top.

Donnie Yen is really into MMA. Listening to his commentary for Flashpoint he's not satisfied with that final fight with Collin Chou one bit. Bey Logan pretty much had to stop him from bitching about his own fight choreography. Which of course just makes me anxious for the next modern day movie he choreographs. Just imagine how much better he'll want to make the MMA infused fight sequences.

Solid Snake

Yeah, on Flash Point he's happy that he got to do more MMA in it but he still felt disappointed by it's turn out in his eyes. He probably wanted 100% MMA in the start but it was still in his experimentation stage with it. I must admit out of the Martial Arts stars I'm really happy with his rise in the ranks lately, more so than before, adding more and more into his resume with styles. Add in Ip Man and it's just amazing to see him switch it up so much.

Brian T

Sure, his new stuff's okay, but could he ever hope to top this?

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OK, to make up for that, here's this:

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