badlieut

He's doing it TO keep guys from dressing up like him. Rather than admire him, they need to dislike him and stay out of his business. They only get in his way. They risk their lives as well as the criminals lives.

GIjon213

"A battle between light and dark where both become grey"

First think that came to mind with a 25 words or less requirement

A-aron

Throughout the film, Wayne talked about Dent being the white knight that would take charge as the hero of Gotham - allowing Wayne to hang up the cowl. So, wouldn't having Batman take the fall give Wayne the easy out? Batman is on the run - vanishing into the night, and Bruce can run Wayne Enterprises.

mdc3000

As mentioned above, BATMAN isn't this symbol of good and hope, Harvey Dent is. Batman doesn't want this status, he wants the option to retire and live a normal life... they really hit this point more than once throughout the movie.

kefrank

because it's not very realistic to think that no one would go searching for and uncover the truth in an unsolved cop-killing, whether the cop was corrupt or not.

again, the public's beliefs about Batman were already clouded before that. the killings being pinned on him just amplifies the view that many already hold of him as a vigilante operating well outside the law. it's not like he's suddenly being made out to be a murderous villain in the public's eye - everyone Two-Face killed had ties to the mob. he's just being confirmed as a vigilante executioner, something many already believed he was.

obviously you missed something in the film. the benefit is that Harvey Dent becomes the martyred hero of Gotham, his case against the mob in Gotham has a much better chance of sticking and cleaning up crime in the city, and an already-existing public opinion of Batman is amplified.

i think the error you guys are making is that you're looking at it from an omniscient Batman fan point-of-view, rather than looking at it from within the movie's internal universe.

Bandoman

I call bullshit on your added rule, because I think that is the central theme of the movie.

das Monkey

Batman does not want and cannot be a "beacon of good". If he is perceived that way, either his hands will be tied against effective action or his actions will be perceived as acceptable for society, neither of which is good. Dent must be the beacon of good, an average guy who changed Gotham working within the system, and as a dead man, he no longer faces the pressure of making hard decisions that could tarnish that image. Batman's not taking the fall because no one else can be found to take the blame, and he's not taking the fall because of some moral inability to blame someone else either. He's taking the fall because the city needs him to.

das

kefrank

The great thing about that quote is that, in a sense, Harvey Dent ends up doing both. And in the end, Batman is still somewhere in the middle, at least from Gotham's perspective. I think the central theme of the movie is actually more complex than the relatively simplistic words from that quote.

maxfisher

Where are people getting that the public already thought Batman was a vigilante executioner? I don't recall anything to that effect. Wasn't the whole backlash against Batman just because he wouldn't unmask, despite the Joker threatening to kill people until he did so?

Star Wars Guy

No, I got that loud and clear. I wasn't implying that Dent should be named as the murder, I just couldn't grasp why Batman had to take the rap for them.

I believe this is where you are correct. And the fact that having just rewatched Begins right before TDK and hearing why Bruce took on being Batman clouds being able to see this a tad. Also, I did have to step out at one point for a nature call and might have missed something that would have helped me get that point better.

kefrank

i think the movie makes it clear that the public opinion of Batman is clouded and mixed, well before the Joker's threat surrounding him being unmasked. you've got some citizens dressing up like him and trying to fight crime with guns. you've got a commissioner and police force that are after him as a vigilante who is taking justice into his own hands. i don't necessarily think most of the public viewed him as a vigilante executioner prior to him taking the blame for Two-Face's killings, but many didn't know what to think of him and certainly wouldn't have seen him as incapable of such things.

for the citizens of Gotham in the movie, the dividing line between a vigilante who goes after criminals outside of the law and a vigilante who goes after criminals and kills some of them is just not that significant. for omniscient Batman fans who know his defining moral code not to kill, that dividing line is much more significant.

kefrank

gotcha. i think the main reason is that it was simply the best way to keep the truth hidden. leaving those killings unsolved just begs for someone to find and reveal the truth. pinning it on the Joker is problematic, because he was with surviving hostages throughout the entire time that Two-Face was on his rampage. Batman, on the other hand, is in and out of the shadows anyway. no one could account for his true whereabouts at the time of the killings and all those who were killed had ties to the mob - so they were the kind of people that Batman goes after anyway.

Star Wars Guy

Good discussion, kefrank.

kefrank

right back atcha! all this discussion is making me want to go see it again as soon as possible.

maingon

Wow fantastic movie. I loved it, so much suspense fantastic action scenes too. Movie is almost perfect but did feel alittle too long at the end. Felt alittle like they were trying to rush with the Two Face Plot. But thats a small complaint. Effects on Two face looked very cool. Ledger was amazing as the joker, Loved every scene he was in.

tons of sunrises in this movie, I loved it that for once I went into a movie not knowing any spoilers or what the movie is about.

9.5/10

Quake1028

Yeah I loved them too, but my main complaint - not enough sunsets.

iamiam

Oldboy! Loved it! Definitely a 5/5!

PopcornTreeCt

Can we discuss how the Joker represents Al-Qaeda, Gotham is Iraq, and the Batman is the good ol' U.S. of A.? Oh please oh please.

RichC2

Except Oldboy wasn't a decision, it was an accidental comment.

jPoD_TGN

Definitely a solid movie, but I dont think I've ever seen a more overrated movie in my life...

Superman07

Sorry to hear that...and thank you for that insightful and in depth analysis.

Superboy

I see the Batman and Robin pattern is coming back. Has anyone else seen the designs for the upcoming animated series? It's not going to sour the series as much as Batman and Robin did, and The Batman series didn't do anything to tarnish Batman's rep. However, it does not bode well for the future of the franchise.

MartinBlank

I read somewhere that if they introduced Robin Bale would be done with the franchise.

Doc MacGyver

"As a whole I dispise Allegory. People are always looking for connections to further their beliefs when they simply don't exist." - J.R.R. Tolkien



-Doc

Preacher

Not bad.

In spite of how good it is in general, needs to be more specific. Great decription for a certain type of film, but not specific enough.