mcnabb

It's a thread about whether Return of the Jedi is great, how do you want us to answer? Seems like I can answer whether I agree and here's why, or I disagree and here's why.

pjflyer

. . . for me to poop on

Strevlac

Exactly. I've always agreed with Howard Hawks old saying: "A great movie has three great scenes and no bad ones." That sounds about right.

I can't think of any bad scenes in Star Wars or Empire, and they both have more than three great scenes each. I struggle to call any of the scenes in Jedi great, although a few parts come close. But it has so many bad scenes...it's really a struggle for me to get throught the whole thing.

Jules Winfield

I never got the hate for ROTJ. Granted, this was my first Star Wars in theaters(at the age of 4) but I always thought it was a satisfying conclusion to the Original trilogy. It's paced just fine to me. I probably would find it not as good if I was older and had experienced Star Wars and ESB beforehand. I even like it more than A New Hope. I don't think I would call ROTJ great or bad though. Just good.

TomOpus

I always liked the movie but I can see where people thought the Ewoks were a bit much.

Solid Snake

I was never a SW kid. And I thought the Ewoks were crappy as a kid. But I wouldn't mind hugging one cuz they're so cute.

EddieMoney

That could be very cathartic for you!

Solid Snake

Rape always is.

EddieMoney

In all my years, I have never raped ANYONE who I didn't truly believe wanted to be raped.

Paul_SD

This is the thing. For you and many others of your age range, it was an experience unto itself. For me, and a few other mal-contented nerds, it was the third act of a single story with a very loooong intermission. During that span we not only had time to imagine and speculate on our own, we also developed some dramatic life experience (especially with all the drama that puberty brings). If you were an older kid when SW first hit in '77, this meant you were in your mid/late teens for the end of the story. i was fully ready to digest characters i'd love having to make painful sacrifices...or meet unpleasant ends. It was the perfect age to process what had every right to be a bittersweet ending.

But that wasn't to be. By the time the story conference (with Lucas, Marquand, Kasdan, and Kanzijian) rolled around, Lucas had decided to dispense with just about all of the 'smart' character continuity (some of which i referenced earlier) and just scrub it clean. He's quoted several times in the transcripts saying He wants the story written for 7 year olds - he wanted everything at that intellectual level. No concepts or substance that would go over the head of the average second grader.
Kasden frequently voices disbelief and surprise that this is the direction Lucas wants to take the material, but his mind at this point is made up.
Gone is the natural conflict between Vader and The Emperor (that actually provides motivation for Vader killing him- motivation that is absent or unsupported in the final film) as is the idea that Luke' failures gave him any further performance anxiety. Or that Leia is torn between her very serious responsibilities to the rebellion and her high school romance with her boyfriend...just to name a few.
there was also an early idea that both Yoda and Ben would show up on the
sidelines as Luke had his last duel with Vader. Lucas toyed with the idea that Ben wasn't really dead, but that his stay in the netherworld was contingent on Luke resolving the situation with Vader. If he didn't snuff out Vader, Ben's time would expire and he would merge with the force. As L&V duel, Ben and Yoda would be blocking any attempts by the Emperor to fix the game.

There's still a few interesting things left to transcribe, including some funny exchanges in the transcripts, for anyone that's still interested. i'll try to get it up over the weekend.

EddieMoney

That transcript would be interesting to read.

Paul_SD

Although Rinzler quotes substantial portions, the conference last several long days. I would love to be able to read the whole thing. I walked away from the Raiders conference transcript with an entirely different opinion of both Spielberg and Lucas. Lower for the former and much higher for the latter.

But just to whet your appetite, here's one exchange in the ROTJ transcript I found amusing.

.

arminius

Interesting stuff

http://mysterymanonfilm.blogspot.com...onference.html

hasslein

Indy was 25 and Marion was 15?!?!

Crocker Jarmen

<iframe src="//player.vimeo.com/video/73550664" width="500" height="281" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe>

EddieMoney

I'm not a ROTJ apologist, but I am definitely biased, as it was a film of my youth. It does have flaws, and I can see where it would have been viewed as somewhat of a disappointment in 1983. That being said, it's my favorite after ESB, if only for the scenes with Luke, Vader and the Emperor, which I find very dark (tonally and visually). It's very exciting stuff, and crushes any of the prequels, IMO.

If you want disappointment, try any of my past "Take Me Home Tonight" output.

hasslein

HA! That is awesome. Karen Allen always looked 30ish to me, so it never crossed my mind. Funny I just saw The Possessed (1977) for the first time last night, Harrison plays a teacher that sleeps with his students & faculty... One of the students is the daughter of a teacher with whom he was intimate.

milo bloom

Also a film of my youth, I've come to appreciate TESB as the proper best, but ROTJ will always have a place in my heart.

As I get older, I maintain that ROTJ (and all three prequels) would benefit strongly from another pass through the editing room to tighten them up and give them a little more zing.

inri222

ESB all the way. Four reasons why :

writer Leigh Brackett
director Irvin Kershner
cinematographer Peter Suschitzky

&
George Lucas did not write any of the screenplay.

None of the 3 was brought back for ROTJ

Paul_SD

Bracketts screenplay is actually a mess and bears little resemblance to what ended up on the screen- most of which, like Raiders, was borne out of Lucas hashing it out with Kasden.
The Brackett script is also online, though I don't know recall where I got it.

Based on the snatches of transcripts from the ROTJ conference, I don't get the feeling that Marquand was right for the material at all. He comes across as enthusiastic, but too willing to embrace the most expedient and infantile story solutions Lucas comes up with. Kasden comes across, to me, as frustrated. I'd always been surprised that he was responsible for this films script, but now I've got the feeling he knew it was a losing proposition to give Lucas what he wanted he so he just phoned it in, in as lazy and disinterested a way as possible. Seven year olds were never going to know the difference anyway.

story

Return of the Jedi is in theaters for one week only to celebrate its 40th anniversary.

We went as a family tonight to a sold-out house and it was a lot of fun. Most people were into it, though a few kids (not young kids, either, they were around 10-12) were clomping up and down the stairs over and over for bathroom breaks, snack breaks, etc. Clearly, their parents wanted to go more than they did. Our kids liked it and hadn't seen it in a long time so it was both familiar and fresh.

At first, I was spotting models, matte lines, paintings, puppets, etc. After a while, I let it all go. I realize I've seen the "making of" on this one so many times that a game of pop-up video in my head isn't nearly as fun as just enjoying the movie.

The parts that I fast-forwarded as a kid are the parts I enjoyed the most now: Yoda and Obi-Wan, Luke and Leia on the bridge, Vader and Luke on Endor, all the talking scenes. I still love the space battle and that was what I watched the most as a kid, but all of those family and generational dynamics simply hit me differently as an adult with children of my own.

One thought on something I would change: the Emperor sees Luke in manicles and says, "You no longer need those," then they fall off Luke. You can see Luke realize the Emperor is a Force user. That said, there's nothing in the original trilogy until that point that makes it clear the Emperor is a Dark Side of the Force user. I think a different way to go, in terms of a surprising reveal, would be for him to tell Vader, "He no longer needs those," then have Vader use the Force to remove the manicles. If you do that, then how does Luke learn the Emperor is a Force user for the first time? With the lightning hands! I now think that would've been a much better reveal.

As far as the special edition bits, I found myself genuinely enjoying the ending montage of all of those planets and the new music much better than "Yub Nub" and the original ending. I'm even going to say yeah, I dig Hayden Christiansen there now. Maybe it's my enjoyment of the expanded Star Wars lore through Rebels, Andor, etc., but the universe is getting bigger and I like it.

I'm pretty sure Return of the Jedi is either my first or very close to my first movie in the movie theater. I remember going with my parents and grandma. When it was over, I was given the speeder bike toy with the Scout Trooper stuffed in the box. I played with that toy to death!

Excellent re-release poster by Mark Ferguson, by the way, spoilerized for size:

Abob Teff

I was looking forward to this ... not playing around here. Thanks AMC.

I hope Disney has that poster up as a reward. I snagged the ESB one and this would look fantastic with it. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of an ANH one to match.

DJariya

I booked a late afternoon ticket for Monday. Bummer that it's not getting a premium screen, but those screens are occupied by Mario and Sisu for AMC.

If I have time, I'm going to try to re-watch Empire before Monday since I haven't seen it in a few years and of course it segues to ROTJ.

Obi-Wanma

Nearest place this is showing is 30 miles away. I'll just watch the blu-ray.

Mike86

It doesn’t look like my theater will be getting the 40th Anniversary screening. Not surprised really as they generally don’t get a lot of special screenings.

I’ve always liked the movie personally. To me it has a lot of the best stuff out of the Original Trilogy. The whole opening at Jabba’s Palace is fun although admittedly pretty convoluted when you think about it. The Speeder Bike sequence on Endor is cool. Also of course the whole showdown in the Emperor’s Throne Room on the Death Star II is awesome.

The Luke and Leia reveal as siblings I could have done without. Death Star II being a retread is kinda weak but doesn’t bother me that much. I’ve never had a big issue with the Ewoks.