thanx

I hope Superman Returns doesn't pull a time travel stunt.

The whole pre-crisis/post crisis thing doesn't even matter. It's up to the film makers to adapt the character for the big screen. That includes changing things, like the time travel, that are just plain stupid or don't come across well on screen.

Hi. New member here!

This thread caught my attention, and I'd like to add my thoughts on Superman's time travel issue... (bear with me...)

Earth spinning backwards?
Like many (if not most) people, I was always under the impression that Superman caused the Earth to spin backwards, then forwards again, just by flying round it. I always found this solution extremely unsatisfying (because it's stupid). It's inconcievable that the Earth would change its rotation based on something that isn't even touching it! But harder still to grasp is the notion that by changing a planet's rotation, you can reverse time on that planet!

A much better theory?
But then I became aware of the alternative theory: that Superman doesn't move the Earth, rather he travels so fast that he goes backwards in time. This theory makes so much more sense!

Scientifically tested!
The theory is in accordance with scientific understanding that states that the faster you travel through space, the slower you travel through time. If you could fly around the earth fast enough, you really would notice the Earth slowing down. So in this respect, Donner's movie is 100% accurate. It is of course utter fantasy that anyone could actually reach the speed of light (and therefore have infinite mass and stop in time) or further still, travel faster than light and go backwards in time. However, this way of looking at the end of the Superman movie is far easier to digest than the crazy 'spinning Earth' way.

To give the theory even more credibility... remember the scene in the movie when baby Superman is travelling to Earth in his pod and his father is teaching him. Well Jor-El even talks about Einstein's theory of relativity! It's there in the movie!

Why go round the Earth?
If Superman had flown off in a straight line, he would have ended up a very long way away from Earth, and would have had to have made his way back. Also, if he wasn't near the Earth, he would have no way of knowing exactly how fast he was going, or, more importantly, what time it was!

Why did he fly back round the other way?... It sure looked like he was spinning the Earth back round.
After Superman flies round the world the first time, he seems to come to a 'stop' with the Earth spinning in the wrong direction, before flying back round again. But when we see him 'stop', he hasn't actually stopped travelling in time. He is still going backwards in time (and I guess the camera is with him), so the Earth only seems to be spinning backwards from our point of view. So naturally, in order to be able to go back into normal time, Superman has to slow his backwards time travel and begin travelling forwards again, which he does by flying the other way.

Superman goes from travelling backwards in time to travelling forwards, and the point when this switches over is the point when the Earth seems to start spinning the correct way again (rather than when we see Superman's flight stop).

Not fast enough to stop the two missiles?
Many people wonder how Superman was able to fly 'faster than light' when he was 'not fast enough' to stop both missiles moments earlier in the movie. I think the answer is a combination of several factors...

1. Firstly, and most importantly, Superman on Earth is severely limited by air resistance, so by flying beyond the Earth's atmosphere he could fly at unlimited speeds.
2 Second, I don't think Superman is capable of instantly flying fast. I think he needs to build up speed. (Hence when we see his trails going round the earth, they get faster and faster.) Maybe flying across America may take him 3 minutes, but by the time he's done that his speed has built up a lot, so he could then begin going round the Earth much more quickly. When we see him begin his 'time travel' journey, there's nothing to say there wasn't 5 minutes of speed-buulding cut out (it would make for boring viewing).
3. Third, when Superman first sets out to stop the missiles, he is still recovering from his Kryptonite poisoning. Sure, he flies through the ceiling of Lex's lair pretty quickly, but that is possibly just a short burst of energy, just to set himself off and wake himself up. It's quite possible that he was feeling very weak for some time afterwards.
4. Despite Superman's obvious concern for saving human lives, when his girlfriend died it got a LOT more personal, and Superman actually got very angry. He was like a different man: enraged and passionate. People are often capable of much greater physical feats when they are in a position of extreme trauma and experiencing a surge of adrenaline.

Additional trivia
Did you know that the 'flying round the world' thing was originally going to be at the end of the SECOND movie, not the first? Apparently, things got chopped around and re-structured at the last minute (although I believe this particular change to the story was still under Richard Donnner's direction, before he got fired from the project and replaced).

DON'T MISS THE OFFICIAL VIDEO RELEASE OF RICHARD DONNER'S SUPERMAN II AT THE END OF THE YEAR! It will be the first time we've ever really seen the real Superman II!

Question Time...
And now, just like in Superman IV: The Quest For Peace, I will spend hours answering a load of questions, instead of doing anything interesting...

One of Superman's greatest and most overlooked powers is his extreme intelligece. He probably knew exactly what was required for the train wheels to be able to carry on moving, and used exactly the part of his body that was needed to make it work.

Didn't they both walk/drive off again afterwards? Lex and Teshmacher are both back home again afterwards, so they obviously came back together.

Because Richard Lester is evil.

I always imagined the lair was originally used for some other purpose, and Lex recovered and restored it. A BIT LIKE THE SUPERMAN II VIDEO OUT THIS YEAR! BUY IT! I DON'T WORK FOR WARNER BROTHERS HONEST! ;)

Two reasons Lex likes Otis. First and foremose, Lex has a huge ego and likes to impress people with his "genius". That is a lot easier with Otis around. Secondly, Otis is possibly chosen deliberately for his naivity, because Lex can use him for things that other men would wise up to.

That's a good question! I believe the original Superman II (as created and shot by Richard Donner) paid a lot more attention to this scene. For example, Superman takes off his costume before he gets into the chamber. (We see Lois wearing it in one unused scene!) I think Donner almost certainly would have 'allowed' for Lois and Clark to make more preparations, rather than just giving up his powers on impulse without thinking about how to get home.

I'd like to say 'because Richard Lester is evil' but the real answer is that it's a very good plot device. (And shhhhh!)

Oh yeah. The mass public embrace all kinds of twisted things. Usually without realising it. The mass public are stupid. (Sometimes I think there's a little Lex in me!)

Was Miss Teshmacher actually used to distract the army guys? I can't remember now but as I recall she just did the wiring while Otis and Lex did the distracting.

His real toupee is somewhere safe. The toupee you see in Superman II is just a decoy, in case aliens try to steal it.

I have a few questions...
 

How did Zod, Ursa and Non get out of the Phantom Zone and back on a Krypton-like planet at the beginning of Superman II?

Why did the hula hoops come down on all three of them just because Zod broke one of Jor-El's (if it was Jor-El's) crystals and Non tried to twist a guard's helmet off? And since when did those Kryptonian guards start sounding like the "Berserk" robots?

And what disembodied voice IS talking to those three? If it's supposed to be Jor-El, it sure doesn't sound like Jor-El.

"You are without fault as you are without voice"?!?! OK, what the hell is that supposed to mean? Is Non guilty and can talk, or innocent and truly mute?

Let's just say I have a problem with that whole amorphous Superman II prologue/re-cap/whatever the hell it was. Please try to avoid answers such as 'Richard Lester is evil and thinks the mass public is stupid.' :lol:

Isn't the beginning of Superman II a flashback?

Oddly enough, the nuclear bomb that was steered into outer space by Superman in the first movie was the one that freed Zon/Non/Ursa from the Phantom Zone.

Here's a Superman question:


I thought Clark wanted to make Lois forget his secret identity at the end of SUPERMAN II.

Then why, in SUPERMAN IV, does he jump off the building WITH Lois, and transform into Superman again, right in front of her, during the reprise of "Can You Read My Mind?"

And F4!


They needed a quick recap and they sure couldnt use Brando's footage so they reshot the beginning just like they reshot Brando's scenes with Kal-El's Mother.

What a funny ironic question. Just to point out to anyone who doesn't get your joke: the villains don't escape at the start of Superman II, it is actually meant to be a flashback to Superman: The Movie. (You wouldn't think it though, given how different it looks to the first film!)

Am I allowed to mention Richard Lester in this answer? No? Ok, a wizard set up the hula hoop booby trap.

It must be Jor-El, as this is (supposedly) a recap. As you probably know, the Salkinds cut costs DRASTICALLY for Superman II, including completely cutting out Brando (even down to using a hand-double for a scene where the green crystal is placed in the pod). This is despite the fact that Brando had already filmed it all, and his scenes were central to the movie. The scene where Superman gets his powers back is a pivotal moment of the movie, and a very emotional exchange between father and son. Of course, in the theatrical version, we just see him pick up the green crystal and then it cuts to him being Superman again!

The strange thing is... why didn't they get a voice mimic to do an impression of Brando (as they did with Gene Hackman's voice for several scenes)?

This line does seem rather cryptic, doesn't it? (Or should that be Kryptic?) Anyway, I can only guess that "without fault" means he doesn't take responsibility for his actions. He regards himself as blameless, and therefore is capable of terrible things. (Not a great line, really, is it?)

I think everyone is in agreement that the REAL Superman II release is going to be very, very welcome.

Oh, and did I mention... Richard Lester is evil?
(Actually, from everything I've read, Richard is a nice guy and quite blameless. He was nice to Donner, and only took over because Donner had already been fired. It's not so much a case of Lester being a bad director, rather just a shame that he took over a project that was already in very capable hands, and was immensely popular, and changed the tone so much.

But the Salkinds, who produced the movies... now they are evil!

I believe that line is "You are without thought as you are without voice"...at least that's the way I've always heard it....

Just watched this lastnight and that is what I heard also.

Lex didn't build a lair in Superman I, it was an abadoned underground train station. You can still see some of the train station signs on the walls.