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Revenge of the Sith or Return of the Jedi?

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View Poll Results: Revenge of the Sith or Return of the Jedi
Revenge of the Sith
39.88%
Return of the Jedi
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Voters: 168. You may not vote on this poll

Revenge of the Sith or Return of the Jedi?

Old 01-11-06, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Terrell
I'd have to strongly disagree, because it's not accurate. The last 30 minutes of ROTS does a much better job of showing us the tragedy of Vader's life and the impact his choices had than ROTJ. That's coming from someone who thought Vader was handled brilliantly in Jedi. Jedi didn't show us the tragedy of Vader's life. ROTS did. ROTJ showed us Vader's redemption.
While I agree that ROTS was the tragedy and ROTJ the redemption, I don't think they did the tragedy in ROTS as well as they could have.

I didn't really feel sorry for Anakin. I felt he got what he deserved for being stupid, immature, whiny and power hungry and that it was as shame he lived at all.

They needed to do a better job on his turn to evil, not just make it that he was foolish and greedy and made a concious choice to go. It weakens his redemption, which would have been stronger if he was somehow put in a position that he had no choice but to turn.
Old 01-11-06, 10:50 PM
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They needed to do a better job on his turn to evil, not just make it that he was foolish and greedy and made a concious choice to go. It weakens his redemption
The point was ROTJ did a better job of showing the tragedy of Anakin's life. Well, since ROTJ didn't show the tragic consequences and ROTS did, there's no way ROTJ depicted his tragedy better. And for what it's worth, I'm not talking about his turn in the film or that scene. However, I bought the turn for this reason. Anakin truly loved Padme. He knew she was going to die, and he couldn't handle that. He believed the Emperor could help him save her. He couldn't let go as Yoda instructed. Also, the Emperor was like his father. He nurtured him and comforted him throughout the film and the prequel trilogy. This wasn't by accident. So at that moment when he thinks he about to lose his father figure and his wife, he snapped. Once he turned, there was no going back. Once you kill Master Windu, he knew he couldn't not turn back. That's why I bought it. But I'm getting way off track.

I'm talking about the events that follow his turn, and not the turn scene itself. The transformation into Vader was brilliantly protrayed in my opinion. The scene when he was at Mustafar and a tear rolled down his eye. A simple scene that in my opinion beautifully portrayed his internal struggle and his difficulty in coping with his own choices. The fight with Obi-Wan and his bursting into flames, again beautifully portrayed. His choking Padme. His slaughter of the younglings. His grief for his wife, though I could have done without the "noooooo!" All great scenes that depict successfully depicted the tragedy of his life. ROTJ certainly didn't.

In fact, the last 20-25 minutes of ROTS ranks among the best 20 minutes of any of the films. From the beginning of fight to the end of the film was great stuff. You may disagree!

They needed to do a better job on his turn to evil, not just make it that he was foolish and greedy and made a concious choice to go. It weakens his redemption, which would have been stronger if he was somehow put in a position that he had no choice but to turn.
Anakin was put in a choice where he felt he had no choice. His wife was going to die, and he knew it. He was about to lose the one person who he felt treated him as a father figure, even though he had ulterior motives. You also make it sound like everything was a-okay and he suddenly decided to go apeshit. That's the not case. For two straight films, the Emperor seduced him. Other than Obi-Wan, the Jedi Council showed him nothing but distrust. They ask him to go against the code and spy on the Emperor. Plus, he started down the path when he felt he needed revenge on the Tuskens for the death of his mother. Numerous things happen to Anakin that lead up to his turn. But again, disagreements abound over the prequels. Doubtful we'll come to any kind of consensus no matter how much we discuss it.

Last edited by Terrell; 01-11-06 at 10:56 PM.
Old 01-11-06, 10:59 PM
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I'd go Sith - the scope of the thing alone makes it worthwhile, and it's near perfect whenever nobody is talking. However, Jedi does have the best moment in either trilogy with the Luke/Vader duel.

1. ESB
2. ANH
3. ROTS
4. ROTJ
5. AOTC
6. TPM
Old 01-12-06, 12:44 AM
  #79  
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I don't like Ewoks, but other than that I liked Jedi far far better. The ending of Sith was fine, but the first 2/3 or so I still found boring.

My order

Empire
Star Wars (as the old fart I am, I'll never call this "A New Hope")
Jedi


big gap


Sith

small gap

Phantom Menace
Clone Wars
Old 01-12-06, 01:58 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Ginwen
Star Wars (as the old fart I am, I'll never call this "A New Hope")
Me neither, i call it by its original title Star Wars (which is why i put SW in the topic start)
Old 01-12-06, 03:02 AM
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I voted for Return of the Jedi.

Funny story. I was only a little over 2 years old when ROTJ hit theaters, so I had no idea what the whole Star Wars thing was. Fast forward five or six years and my parents probably only owned about 30 VHS movies, one of which was ROTJ. I remember watching that thing all the time. I loved it. Granted, I still had no idea A New Hope or Empire even existed.

One day I stayed home sick and my mom asked me if she could go rent me anything to watch. I'm only 7 or 8 so I don't really know what's out there. I told her to get something like Return of the Jedi, as that was my favorite movie.

Well, long story short, she comes back with Star Wars and Empire and I ended up watching all 3 that day. I still remember how shocked I was when she came back with the two movies and told me they were part 1 and part 2 of ROTJ. To this day I have no idea why they only owned ROTJ, or why it never occurred to them to mention that ROTJ was the last installment of the Star Wars trilogy.

Now... I had always thought it was weird that ROTJ started off without introducing all their main characters and explaining how everyone ended up at Jabba's place. But I was a kid and the action picked up soon enough, so I just kind've dismissed it. Unfortunately for me, I don't think I've really ever been able to appreciate Empire as much as everyone else. The payoff just wasn't there for me the first time since I already knew the eventual ending from watching ROTJ.

Anyway, like I said, I voted for ROTJ. The Ewoks didn't bug me back in the day, and they still don't bug me. Go figure.
Old 01-12-06, 12:14 PM
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Sorry, Sith Sucked.

I voted for Return Of The Jedi, a real Star Wars film! Ewoks notwithstanding. It's probably because I was young when I stood in line for hours just to see this film, but then, and even now, I like Ewoks.

And, I too, still refer to the first as "Star Wars".
Old 01-12-06, 12:44 PM
  #83  
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Jedi.

I loved Sith on the first viewing, but seeing it several more times has allowed me to look past the initial awe of the CGI and focus more on the poor dialogue and acting. That said I am definitely a Star Wars fan and the only film I won't sit down and watch is Ep1. Also, I actually prefer Ep2 to Ep3 overall.

Another comment somewhat off-topic. Try as I might, I can't view Vader's tossing Palpatine down that shaft as his "redemption." I'm sorry, but you just can't be reedemed after slaughtering children. No amount of good can make up for the evil he committed. This means that I actually prefer Hayden being edited into to end of Jedi, because it shows him as he was the last time he was "good."
Old 01-12-06, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by uberjoe
Another comment somewhat off-topic. Try as I might, I can't view Vader's tossing Palpatine down that shaft as his "redemption." I'm sorry, but you just can't be reedemed after slaughtering children. No amount of good can make up for the evil he committed. This means that I actually prefer Hayden being edited into to end of Jedi, because it shows him as he was the last time he was "good."
Wasn't that the last time Anakin slaughtered little children as well? As a young Jedi. At least with the old man at the end of Jedi it is more of a redemption type thing. He may have slaughtered children(when he was young and impressionable) but he also ended the suffering of so many more under Palpy's rule.
Old 01-12-06, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Corvin
Wasn't that the last time Anakin slaughtered little children as well? As a young Jedi. At least with the old man at the end of Jedi it is more of a redemption type thing. He may have slaughtered children(when he was young and impressionable) but he also ended the suffering of so many more under Palpy's rule.
Well, he looked like that at the beginning of the movie before the killing and before he became Vader, which is what I meant.

And I say again, I don't buy the redemption line. I don't care how many people he helped free from oppression (especially when he helped oppress them in the first place). I hate to bring up Godwin's law, but Mengele would not have received a pass and become a "good guy" if he had happened to shoot Hitler in the head and ended WWII. There is evil you don't come back from, and that's where Vader was.
Old 01-12-06, 01:01 PM
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JEDI!!!
you have Boba Fett and Jaba.
Classic
Old 01-12-06, 01:23 PM
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And I say again, I don't buy the redemption line. I don't care how many people he helped free from oppression (especially when he helped oppress them in the first place). I hate to bring up Godwin's law, but Mengele would not have received a pass and become a "good guy" if he had happened to shoot Hitler in the head and ended WWII. There is evil you don't come back from, and that's where Vader was.
One, the word redeemed has many meanings. Two, you can be redeemed from about anything. Assuming you believe in God or just know the story, which I'm sure you do, Jesus redeemed mankind by giving his life on the cross. Considering all of the evils and treachery of mankind, the human race was redeemed and forgiven all of it's sin. So yes, Vader can be redeemed. When you considered he saved the entire galaxy from oppression, saved planets from being blown up, saved billions of lives and his son by sacrificing his own life, that is redemption. It doesn't mean he suddenly became a good man simply because he was redeemed. He atoned for his sins and changed for the better, which by the way are two of the definition of redeemed.

If you disagree, that's fine. Just an opposing viewpoint.
Old 01-12-06, 01:50 PM
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Jedi
Old 01-12-06, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by lopper
I've never really been able to understand this widespread hatred for Jedi, the Ewoks in particular. Sure, they're kiddy and a little stupid, but they certainly don't ruin the movie, imo.
Did Jar Jar ruin the Phantom Menance for you? Did for me. Same reason as the Ewoks ruined ROTJ.
Old 01-12-06, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Terrell
He atoned for his sins and changed for the better, which by the way are two of the definition of redeemed.

If you disagree, that's fine. Just an opposing viewpoint.
He atoned for his sins, but certainly didn't change! Unless you mean "changing" to mean "dying". He just basically said Luke was right and then died!
Old 01-12-06, 03:18 PM
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There's too many classic scenes in Jedi for sith to even be a contender. I actually disliked sith overall. The only scene in sith that comes close to greatness is the scene in the opera where paplatine talks about his master. That scene was long overdue. And the look on Ian M's face is priceless.

That said, jedi all the way.

"jabba this is your last chance... Free us or die"- Makes me smile every time.
Old 01-12-06, 03:31 PM
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When I finally get around to watching Sith, I'll let you know.
Old 01-12-06, 05:02 PM
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Jedi, as cool as Sith was I have to give the nod to Jedi simply because the Battle of Endor (the space battle) kicked serious ass.
Old 01-12-06, 05:43 PM
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Overall, I think Sith is the better movie, but Jedi has what I feel is the best single scene in any Star Wars movie. It's the scene on Endor where Luke surrenders to Vader (well, the troopers bring him to Vader, anyhow) and he discusses redemption with him.
Old 01-15-06, 03:03 AM
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The point was ROTJ did a better job of showing the tragedy of Anakin's life. Well, since ROTJ didn't show the tragic consequences and ROTS did, there's no way ROTJ depicted his tragedy better.
Wrong. Jedi managed to get this across without having to show us, or explain everything in detail.
Old 01-15-06, 10:28 AM
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Wrong. Jedi managed to get this across without having to show us, or explain everything in detail.
I don't know how you can get something across without showing or explaining it. That's a new one on me. You have to do one or the other.

Last edited by Terrell; 01-15-06 at 10:30 AM.
Old 01-15-06, 10:41 AM
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ROTJ did get it a across though as it showed the struggle in him, and that he did still have good in him and wasn't purely evil.

If anything the prequels hurt that some as he wasn't a very likeable character, turned for selfish reasons, and really didn't seem to have much of a good side.
Old 01-15-06, 01:14 PM
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Jedi
Old 01-15-06, 08:38 PM
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ROTJ did get it a across though as it showed the struggle in him, and that he did still have good in him and wasn't purely evil.
Thank you.


Terrell, It's pretty sad that you have probably seen these each of these films a bazillion times, yet reading your last few posts in regards to Jedi you have seemingly missed half of the movie.
Old 01-15-06, 11:48 PM
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My ranking:

1) ANH
2) ESB
3) ROTJ
4) ROTS
5) Clone Wars 1&2
6) TPM
7) Ewok Adventure/Battle for Endor
8) Holiday Special
9) AotC
(yes, I'd rather watch the Holiday Special than be subjected to ep2 again)

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