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Is It All Mace Windu's Fault?! (SPOILERS)

Old 05-21-05, 01:29 PM
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Is It All Mace Windu's Fault?! (SPOILERS)

This may be mentioned in one of the many other threads, but I didn't see it so I thought I would bring it up.

It occurs to me that if Mace hadn't acted VERY un-Jedi like and insisted on killing Palpatine instead of arresting him, Anakin wouldn't have turned to the Dark Side...at least not so quickly.

Granted, Palpatine probably would have still commissioned "Order 66" and gained control - but would Anakin still have turned? Was it Mace's un-Jedi like action that caused Anakin to give up the small thread of trust that he still had in the Jedi Order?
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Old 05-21-05, 01:34 PM
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Its a good point. However, either way Palp's plan works. Either Mace arrests Palp and the Jedi take over the Republic (as Mace suggested!) and Palp's prediction about a Jedi takeover comes true or Mace attempts to kill Palp (as he did) and it looks like an execution.

You have to think that Anakin's suggestion about obeying the Jedi code and not killing Palps was not about the Jedi code but rather saving Palp's life so he could help Padme.
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Old 05-21-05, 01:40 PM
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Always blaming the brother
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Old 05-21-05, 01:43 PM
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if it wasn't for jar jar, palp wouldn't have his supreme powers.
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Old 05-21-05, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Jackskeleton
if it wasn't for jar jar, palp wouldn't have his supreme powers.
But wasn't Jar Jar voting what Padme wanted?
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Old 05-21-05, 03:58 PM
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I blame Chewbacca. The wookie has no pants.
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Old 05-21-05, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by calhoun07
But wasn't Jar Jar voting what Padme wanted?
yeah but she was all juiced up on Vader spunk.
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Old 05-21-05, 05:25 PM
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chanster's right. It's a win-win for Palp.

What, exactly, is he being 'arrested' for? For being a Sith Lord? Is that actually illegal? Having a different philosophy from the Jedi is a crime?

No matter what Mace does, it looks like exactly what Palp wants it to -- a Jedi rebellion against a legitimately elected government official.
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Old 05-21-05, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by GuessWho
Always blaming the brother
True dat!

Palp would have been arrested for manipulating the government.

Mace realized that arresting him wouldn't have worked, since he had successfully manipulated all of these events right under the the Jedi Council's nose. If he was that powerful, no way a judge/jury convicts him, or a cell holds him.
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Old 05-21-05, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bboisvert
No matter what Mace does, it looks like exactly what Palp wants it to -- a Jedi rebellion against a legitimately elected government official.
Actually, no. As is stated in the movie, this is WELL after his term has ended that he still has "emergency" powers. With Grievous dead, the war is over and Palpatine no longer needs his political powers.

But, when Mace comes to ask him to stand down as Chancellor, Palp goes apeshit and kills the two redshirts (I know, I know, different franchise! But what else do you call those two Jedi whose only purpose was to die?) and attack Windu.
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Old 05-21-05, 06:02 PM
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I thought Mace screwed up as well, Anakin probably still would have turned sooner or later but maybe they could have had some warning by that time that something was wrong with him.
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Old 05-21-05, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Bluebomber
I thought Mace screwed up as well, Anakin probably still would have turned sooner or later but maybe they could have had some warning by that time that something was wrong with him.
Mace screwed up a little, but there really was nothing he could do. If he didn't kill Palpatine, Palp would just resume power and Anakin would probably still submit to him.
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Old 05-21-05, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Brain Stew
But, when Mace comes to ask him to stand down as Chancellor, Palp goes apeshit and kills the two redshirts (I know, I know, different franchise! But what else do you call those two Jedi whose only purpose was to die?) and attack Windu.
I don't pretend to know the proper political protocol for handing down emergency powers in this fictionalized "Republic", but I have to imagine that it isn't done in an office being confronted by 4 armed Jedi masters.

Palpatine would 'hand down' these powers in the Senate. And if the Jedi wanted him to do so once Grevious was defeated, that's where they should have made a motion to do so.


Again, from 'a certain point of view', what Mace was doing played right into Palp's hands. They went into that office to 'arrest' Palpy (with no charges) and then, with him cowering on the floor begging for mercy, attempted to kill him. Palp was brilliant here -- the Jedi cannot win.
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Old 05-21-05, 06:19 PM
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Given the the positive reaction Palp got from the senate when he said he was going to basicaly get rid of the Jedi.Mace's insitance that a trial wouldent work seemed well founded.

I think also the fact Mace seemed against Anakin right from episode 1 and his obvious mistrust of him worked against him when it came down to him or Palps.Perhaps if Obi Wan or Yoda had been in that position Anakin might not have sided with Palpy.
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Old 05-21-05, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Brain Stew
Actually, no. As is stated in the movie, this is WELL after his term has ended that he still has "emergency" powers. With Grievous dead, the war is over and Palpatine no longer needs his political powers.
but the senate allowed him to keep those powers, so the senate would have needed to at least try to remove the powers before the jedi could legally act
mace went to arrest palpatine 2 minutes after finding out the war was over. the senate hadn't even had a chance to vote palpatine out.
if the jedi had waited, and the senate tried removing palpatine, palpatine would have had to show his true colors and the senate would have supported the jedi in removing him
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Old 05-21-05, 09:18 PM
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Palpatine was just playing possum anyway, he wouldn't have sacrificed himself and was holding out just long enough to get Anakin to turn.
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Old 05-21-05, 09:21 PM
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It's Padme's fault. duh.
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Old 05-21-05, 09:21 PM
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I think you have to see things from Windu's "point of view". Palpatine controlled the Senate and would easily get off in his eyes. He had to end it there and then. Going against the Jedi code was gravy for Darth Sidious b/c it shows what was wrong with the Jedi to Anakin, that got them in this situation in the first place.

Here comes the great touches that Lucas put into this movie that I havn't noticed anyone pick up on yet. Anakin insisted Palps be put on trial for his crimes. He knew Palpatine was guilty of treason. He begged Windu not to kill him unarmed b/c it went against the Jedi code. Then he protected him from Mace. Again, what did Anakin do to an unarmed Dooku?

The teachings of the Jedi were obviously not very good, which leads Obi-Wan and Yoda to take a new approach with Luke.
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Old 05-21-05, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bboisvert
What, exactly, is he being 'arrested' for?
Probably Treason against the Republic [for conspiring with the Sepratists] and the Star Wars version of Crimes against Humanity [for the untold tens of thousands or more that died in his manufactured war] just for starters.
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Old 05-21-05, 10:28 PM
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as I was watching Ep1 earlier tonight on CBC I determined it is all Qui Gon's fault
he should have freed Shmi too. then anakin wouldn't have been worried about her and the sandpeople wouldn't have abducted her. then anakin's start down the path to the darkside never would have started
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Old 05-21-05, 10:29 PM
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It seems the majority of the galaxy wanted to be ruled by the Emperor.
And he was in it for peace.
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Old 05-21-05, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mikehunt
but the senate allowed him to keep those powers, so the senate would have needed to at least try to remove the powers before the jedi could legally act
mace went to arrest palpatine 2 minutes after finding out the war was over. the senate hadn't even had a chance to vote palpatine out.
if the jedi had waited, and the senate tried removing palpatine, palpatine would have had to show his true colors and the senate would have supported the jedi in removing him
First of all, in a democracy, the lawmaking body shouldn't have to vote a leader with increasing powers out of office.

Second of all, Palpatine was the one who started the battle.

And finally, Mace Windu was in the wrong since he wanted a Jedi run government. But given the alternative, I'd say that that Windu was ok.
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Old 05-21-05, 10:49 PM
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I felt the same way as the OP, actually.

Mace screwed up twice. Once by not allowing Anakin to come along in the "arrest" (which gave Anakin time to reflecT), and once by deciding to kill Palpatine.

Remember, Anakin actually did the right thing. He went and told Mace once he found out about Palpatine. Mace STILL didn't trust Anakin after that.
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Old 05-21-05, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel
I felt the same way as the OP, actually.

Mace screwed up twice. Once by not allowing Anakin to come along in the "arrest" (which gave Anakin time to reflecT), and once by deciding to kill Palpatine.

Remember, Anakin actually did the right thing. He went and told Mace once he found out about Palpatine. Mace STILL didn't trust Anakin after that.
Exactly. You could probably even add a third when they asked Anakin to spy "off the record."
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Old 05-21-05, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Brain Stew
First of all, in a democracy, the lawmaking body shouldn't have to vote a leader with increasing powers out of office.

Second of all, Palpatine was the one who started the battle.
Prefaced with the fact that I know nothing about the laws/rules of the "Republic" (although I'm sure they exist somewhere! ).

1. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. That lawmaking body voted to GIVE him those powers. And, apparently, it was until the end of the 'crisis'. Should the same body not be the ones to vote that the crisis is now over and he should step down? If the Senate isn't the ones to decide, I'm not sure who would be... certainly not the Jedi.

2. Yes, we (as the audience) know that Palpatine started the battle. Proving that in the Republic's equivalent of a court of law is another matter. Who are your witnesses? What is your evidence?

Palp has set himself up a pretty sweet situation here...
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