Go Back  DVD Talk Forum > Entertainment Discussions > Movie Talk
Reload this Page >

"Forced to explain" - 10 things the final ‘Star Wars’ should resolve

Movie Talk A Discussion area for everything movie related including films In The Theaters

"Forced to explain" - 10 things the final ‘Star Wars’ should resolve

Old 05-11-05, 11:20 AM
  #1  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: My chair
Posts: 2,156
"Forced to explain" - 10 things the final ‘Star Wars’ should resolve

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7803983/
darqleo is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 12:51 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 704
1) Leia did play a diminished roll as far as her "jedi" powers go and it's not exactly excusable. the EU does a little work on the subject. they kind of paint her as a powerful Jedi just not in the swordplay category. kind of like a some jedi are more adept at diplomacy or healing. does't really fix the problem but it helps explain it

2) agreed on all points

3) halfway through the EU novel "Cloak of Deception" you'll see just how far Palpatine/Sideous' control goes. he's manipulating Vallorum long before the vote of no confidence. he's also got the ear of every major senator. Palpatine really is a puppet master

4) i think the Sith are explained enough in the films. it's nice to know some of the EU info about how the sith wars ended and why the sith where destroyed but not essential by any means

5) i thought it was pretty clear that Vader wanted Luke to join him and kill the emperor.....not sure what there is to misunderstand on that one

6) i also thought it was pretty clear that all jedi must "unlearn what they have learned" in order to defeat the sith. which means the old jedi ways don't have much merit anymore

7) agreed that the shortcomings of the jedi could be fixed with a little common sense. it seems Dooku and his former padawan Qui-gon are the only ones that see the Council's inability. but that's kind of esential to the fall of the republic and shows more of Lucas' hate for government

8) not sure what his complaint is here there isn't really a way to maintain control of so many powerful beings without teaching them to control their emotions

9) i think yoda should remain a mystery, it adds to his character if you ask me

10) i agree that the force ghost thing needs to be addressed, and i can't stand the midi-chlorian thing. why not just leave it as "the force that flows through all things"
Daytrip is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 01:09 PM
  #3  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 9,334
It seems to me that Lucas in TPM tried to establish two different apsect of the force - "Living Force" and what I call the "Future Force" Qui Qon's first words deal with Obi-Wan concentrating on the here and now instead of on the future.

It seems to me that Lucas pretty much abandonded that...I don't know what is said in Ep. 3 but it would seem that that is why the Jedi are so messed up too much focus on the future (although they can't seem to get that right either) and not enough on the present.

Spoiler:
Reports are that Qui-Gon supposedly learns the Ghost trick..which would seem to me about focusing on the present in order to stay somewhat connected to the world before passing on to whatever comes next.
chanster is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 01:32 PM
  #4  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,835
Originally Posted by chanster
Spoiler:
Reports are that Qui-Gon supposedly learns the Ghost trick..which would seem to me about focusing on the present in order to stay somewhat connected to the world before passing on to whatever comes next.
Spoiler:
My friend and I have had an ongoing nerdy discussion on that topic. Yeah, it seems as if Qui-Gon figured out how to become one with the force (or something) then taught Obi-Wan and Yoda, which is why they disappeared. However, Anakin/Vader never vanished, yet he got to be a ghost, too? Why is this?

My theory: going with the virgin birth and "conceived by midichlorians" nonsense, Anakin was in fact a part of the force, like Jesus was a part of God. Therefore he wouldn't have to do anything to become a part of the force when his physical body died -- it's automatic. As to why his ghost is the younger Anakin and not the original old man, it's because -- like Kenobi said -- Anakin was destroyed when he became Vader, so the young version is actually the last time Anakin was "alive." I'd always liked the idea that by saving Luke and killing the Emperor he was redeemed and got to be a good guy again, but the truth is there is no redemption for all the terrible things he did.
uberjoe is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 01:36 PM
  #5  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Docking Bay 94
Posts: 14,259
Originally Posted by Daytrip
5) i thought it was pretty clear that Vader wanted Luke to join him and kill the emperor.....not sure what there is to misunderstand on that one
Agreed. I really don't understand how someone could be confused by this. Even the dialog in Empire makes this crystal clear.

Incidentally, this also answers a lot of his confusion on #4. There can only be 2 Sith because whenever there are 3 or more, they gang up on the others. Although this is never explicitly stated in the films...
bboisvert is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 01:48 PM
  #6  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 24,105
Both Vader & Palpy wanted Luke to kill the other


Leia's Jedi powers were shown when she "heard" Luke call out while he was dangling under Bespin and she knew where to go.
GuessWho is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 01:59 PM
  #7  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
RoboDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: A far green country
Posts: 5,952
It seems to me that the author of that article is confused, "about a great many things." So many, in fact, that it isn't even worth taking the time to dissect it, since it is somewhat like an onion. Once you finish peeling back the layers of confusion, there is nothing left.

Last edited by RoboDad; 05-11-05 at 02:01 PM.
RoboDad is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 02:02 PM
  #8  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,835
Originally Posted by RoboDad
It seems to me that the author of that article is confused, "about a great many things." So many, in fact, that it isn't even worth taking the time to dissect it, since it is somewhat like an onion. Once you finish peeling back the layers of confusion, there is nothing left.
Plus, the crying.
uberjoe is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 02:10 PM
  #9  
Cool New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 46
I too am confused about the training of Luke. At the end of Empire, he's a beaten and broken fella. At the beginning of Jedi, he's a confident, silent, badass of a jedi.

So, what did he do between the movies to become such a wicked jedi?
HoosierPapa is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 02:11 PM
  #10  
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Carrollton, Ga
Posts: 4,809
Most of these don't really need much if any explaining. The force ghost issue needs explaining, and a couple of others. But most of these issues are explained either obviously or in subtle ways. Only a couple of those need explaining.
Terrell is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 02:13 PM
  #11  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
RoboDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: A far green country
Posts: 5,952
Originally Posted by Daytrip
2) agreed on all points
Really? I thought it was very clear from the opening scene of ESB that Vader figured out who Luke was between ANH and ESB. At the end of ANH, he didn't yet know that Luke was his son, but by the time the attack on Hoth is launched, it is clear that Vader is obsessed with finding Luke ("I am sure Skywalker is with them!").
RoboDad is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 02:14 PM
  #12  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Phoenix AZ - West Side
Posts: 2,262
Originally Posted by HoosierPapa
I too am confused about the training of Luke. At the end of Empire, he's a beaten and broken fella. At the beginning of Jedi, he's a confident, silent, badass of a jedi.

So, what did he do between the movies to become such a wicked jedi?
Gets a fake hand. See also: Skywalker, Anakin
BassDude is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 02:32 PM
  #13  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 704
Originally Posted by RoboDad
Really? I thought it was very clear from the opening scene of ESB that Vader figured out who Luke was between ANH and ESB. At the end of ANH, he didn't yet know that Luke was his son, but by the time the attack on Hoth is launched, it is clear that Vader is obsessed with finding Luke ("I am sure Skywalker is with them!").
if that's the case then Vader would have to conceal this info from the emperor. which isn't all that hard to believe since we know what his plans where. my main problem lies when he's standing right next to Leia more than once(on the Death Star and in Cloud City) and seemingly has no idea.
Daytrip is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 02:41 PM
  #14  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Docking Bay 94
Posts: 14,259
Originally Posted by Daytrip
my main problem lies when he's standing right next to Leia more than once(on the Death Star and in Cloud City) and seemingly has no idea.
Why would he have an idea?

She doesn't know -- so reading her mind wouldn't work.
She's not been trained in the Jedi arts, so he couldn't 'sense' that.

Other than some sort of Midicholorian-type B.S., there's no reason for Vader to sense anything.


I'm with Robo on this one. The author appears to be confused about so many simple things... he appears to need every little thing spelled out in painful detail, instead of just understanding motivations and stuff from context.
bboisvert is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 02:47 PM
  #15  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 24,105
Originally Posted by bboisvert
She doesn't know -- so reading her mind wouldn't work.
She's not been trained in the Jedi arts, so he couldn't 'sense' that.
She had telepathy with like on Bespin... her Jedi spider-senses were indeed tingling
GuessWho is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 02:58 PM
  #16  
DVD Talk Reviewer
 
Shannon Nutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 15,884
Originally Posted by Daytrip
if that's the case then Vader would have to conceal this info from the emperor. which isn't all that hard to believe since we know what his plans where. my main problem lies when he's standing right next to Leia more than once(on the Death Star and in Cloud City) and seemingly has no idea.
This is easy...Vader knew his wife was pregnant, and probably assumed (up until shortly before ESB begins) that his child died during childbirth along with her. It probably never occurred to him that she might be carrying twins. He doesn't suspect Luke is his son (most likely) until he hears his name as the rebel destroyer of the death star. He would have no reason to suspect Leia was his daughter at any point...epspecially if she hasn't developed her Jedi abilities. I know of no Jedi skill that would allow the Jedi to know they were related to the other person, unless the person they were related to had knowledge of that relation. Luke doesn't know about Leia until ROTJ, so Vader isn't able to make that connection until ROTJ as well - since none of the three (Luke, Leia or Vader) had any clue about the connection. Vader could probably sense some "force" in Leia during Star Wars and Empire...but not enough to warrant his concern (since she never really developed her skills).
Shannon Nutt is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 03:12 PM
  #17  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,835
Originally Posted by Shannon Nutt
This is easy...Vader knew his wife was pregnant, and probably assumed (up until shortly before ESB begins) that his child died during childbirth along with her. It probably never occurred to him that she might be carrying twins. He doesn't suspect Luke is his son (most likely) until he hears his name as the rebel destroyer of the death star. He would have no reason to suspect Leia was his daughter at any point...epspecially if she hasn't developed her Jedi abilities. I know of no Jedi skill that would allow the Jedi to know they were related to the other person, unless the person they were related to had knowledge of that relation. Luke doesn't know about Leia until ROTJ, so Vader isn't able to make that connection until ROTJ as well - since none of the three (Luke, Leia or Vader) had any clue about the connection. Vader could probably sense some "force" in Leia during Star Wars and Empire...but not enough to warrant his concern (since she never really developed her skills).
Spoiler from the script:

Spoiler:
Anakin knew Padme was pregnant, but he and the emperor thought Anakin had killed her before she could give birth. That still doesn't explain why highly-trained Jedi couldn't sense two distinct life forces inside Padme. As to: "I know of no Jedi skill that would allow the Jedi to know they were related to the other person," seems to me that's how Luke realized Leia was his sister in ROTJ. "Your insight serves you well."
uberjoe is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 03:32 PM
  #18  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,622
As for what made Luke a bad-ass from Empire to return? When Lando and Chewy went to go find Han, didn't Luke go back to Degobah to complete his training? It was obvious there was quite a time span between the 2 stories that Luke had enough time to finish his training - at least several months, if not more.
SleepyW is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 03:39 PM
  #19  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,835
Originally Posted by SleepyW
As for what made Luke a bad-ass from Empire to return? When Lando and Chewy went to go find Han, didn't Luke go back to Degobah to complete his training? It was obvious there was quite a time span between the 2 stories that Luke had enough time to finish his training - at least several months, if not more.
My guess is Kenobi's spirit taught him for however long he was there (how else would he know how to build a lightsaber?).

As to Luke being a bad-ass: uh, he wasn't. Got his butt handed to him by Vader in TESB, and Vader clearly wasn't putting his all into the ROTJ fight. Remember, he wanted to turn him, not kill him. It was only when Luke really lost it and got mad that he got the best of (the holding back) Vader.
uberjoe is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 03:50 PM
  #20  
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,196
Originally Posted by GuessWho
Both Vader & Palpy wanted Luke to kill the other
I see why Vader might want to get his son over to help overthrow the Emporer, but why would Palpatine be looking to replace Vader? Did he just want an apprentice with fewer mechanical parts?

I vaguely recall seeing early drafts of Return of the Jedi that had Vader much more obviously in Palpatine's doghouse, but I don't think I remember why that was (other than, you know, letting his space station get blown up).
flagstone is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 03:53 PM
  #21  
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
bigsoos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Sachse, TX
Posts: 4,514
Originally Posted by uberjoe
My guess is Kenobi's spirit taught him for however long he was there (how else would he know how to build a lightsaber?).
I thought people just used the force to guide them through the building process.

that MSNBC guy is an idiot
bigsoos is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 04:00 PM
  #22  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: KS
Posts: 3,202
Originally Posted by flagstone
I see why Vader might want to get his son over to help overthrow the Emporer, but why would Palpatine be looking to replace Vader? Did he just want an apprentice with fewer mechanical parts?

I vaguely recall seeing early drafts of Return of the Jedi that had Vader much more obviously in Palpatine's doghouse, but I don't think I remember why that was (other than, you know, letting his space station get blown up).
I think that is fairly obvious. He is always looking for the strongest apprentice. If Luke kills Vader, then Luke is stronger than Vader and as a result, more valuable to Palpatine than Vader. If Vader wins, then the stronger of the 2 is still Palp's bitch and a major threat is out of the way.
Ketamine is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 04:02 PM
  #23  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,835
Originally Posted by Ketamine
I think that is fairly obvious. If Luke kills Vader, then Luke is stronger than Vader and as a result, more valuable to Palpatine than Vader. If Vader wins, then the stronger of the 2 is still Palp's bitch and a major threat is out of the way.
Ep3 script spoiler:

Spoiler:
Much the same way Palpatine rooted for Anakin when he was fighting Dooku. He wanted whichever proved stronger and angrier.
uberjoe is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 04:04 PM
  #24  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,835
Originally Posted by bigsoos
I thought people just used the force to guide them through the building process.

that MSNBC guy is an idiot
I don't see how the force could help someone build a complex piece of machinery. Nah, Kenobi must have helped. That, or -- going with the ROTJ novel -- Luke built the saber in Kenobi's old hut and he had some blueprints lying around.

And that MSNBC guy is a complete idiot.
uberjoe is offline  
Old 05-11-05, 04:25 PM
  #25  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,196
Originally Posted by uberjoe
I don't see how the force could help someone build a complex piece of machinery. Nah, Kenobi must have helped. That, or -- going with the ROTJ novel -- Luke built the saber in Kenobi's old hut and he had some blueprints lying around.

And that MSNBC guy is a complete idiot.

The blueprints were also discussed in the Shadows of the Empire novel.

I also agree that the MSNBC guy is a complete idiot
candyrocket786 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.