why do good directors go bad
#1
Needs to contact an admin about multiple accounts
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 472
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
why do good directors go bad
why do some directors start their career like a house on fire then can't make a good movie if they were handed the script to citizen kane.
example coppola godfather, conversation, godfather part 2, apocalypse now,
then awful films galore
then done
john mctiernan predator, die hard, hunt for red october,
with the exception of thomas crown affair, and die hard with a vengeance, nothing but garbage
their are tons more examples
example coppola godfather, conversation, godfather part 2, apocalypse now,
then awful films galore
then done
john mctiernan predator, die hard, hunt for red october,
with the exception of thomas crown affair, and die hard with a vengeance, nothing but garbage
their are tons more examples
#5
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 4,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After reading Peter Biskind's book "Easy Riders, Raging Bulls", I'm convinced that the atmosphere of the 70s, when many of today's prominent (and derailed) directors started out, provided the platform for aspiring talents to make personal, daring, and ambitiously cinematic movies... quite simply, films that worked.
I also believe that the self-importance and "high concept" thinking (which many, including Biskind, largely blame Lucas and Spielberg for) of the '80s caused many of these directors to fall by the wayside. I don't know if it is the times, the people or the film industry that changed, but to me, past glories seem to be the one major reason for becoming deluded/lazy in one's latter days. The harder they fall...
EXT. PARK. DAY
Seen through the telescopic sight of an air rifle that wanders over various potential targets (children, pensioners, couples, gardeners, etc.)
SICK BOY: It's certainly a phenomenon in all walks of life.
RENTON: What do you mean?
SICK BOY: Well, at one time, you've got it, and then you lose it, and it's gone forever. All walks of life: George Best, for example. Had it, lost it. Or David Bowie or Lou Reed...
RENTON: Some of his solo stuff's not bad.
SICK BOY: No, it's not bad, but it's not great either. And in your heart you kind of know that although it sounds all right, it's actually just shite.
RENTON: So who else?
SICK BOY: Charlie Nicholas, David Niven, Malcolm McLaren, Elvis Presley...
RENTON: OK, OK, so what's the point you're trying to make?
Sick Boy rests the gun down.
SICK BOY: All I'm trying to do is help you understand that The Name of the Rose is merely a blip on an otherwise uninterrupted downward trajectory.
RENTON: What about The Untouchables?
SICK BOY: I don't rate that at all.
RENTON: Despite the Academy Award?
SICK BOY: That means f*** all. The sympathy vote.
RENTON: Right. So we all get old and then we can't hack it anymore. Is that it?
SICK BOY: Yeah.
RENTON: That's your theory?
SICK BOY: Yeah. Beautifully f*****g illustrated.
RENTON: Give me the gun.
I also believe that the self-importance and "high concept" thinking (which many, including Biskind, largely blame Lucas and Spielberg for) of the '80s caused many of these directors to fall by the wayside. I don't know if it is the times, the people or the film industry that changed, but to me, past glories seem to be the one major reason for becoming deluded/lazy in one's latter days. The harder they fall...
EXT. PARK. DAY
Seen through the telescopic sight of an air rifle that wanders over various potential targets (children, pensioners, couples, gardeners, etc.)
SICK BOY: It's certainly a phenomenon in all walks of life.
RENTON: What do you mean?
SICK BOY: Well, at one time, you've got it, and then you lose it, and it's gone forever. All walks of life: George Best, for example. Had it, lost it. Or David Bowie or Lou Reed...
RENTON: Some of his solo stuff's not bad.
SICK BOY: No, it's not bad, but it's not great either. And in your heart you kind of know that although it sounds all right, it's actually just shite.
RENTON: So who else?
SICK BOY: Charlie Nicholas, David Niven, Malcolm McLaren, Elvis Presley...
RENTON: OK, OK, so what's the point you're trying to make?
Sick Boy rests the gun down.
SICK BOY: All I'm trying to do is help you understand that The Name of the Rose is merely a blip on an otherwise uninterrupted downward trajectory.
RENTON: What about The Untouchables?
SICK BOY: I don't rate that at all.
RENTON: Despite the Academy Award?
SICK BOY: That means f*** all. The sympathy vote.
RENTON: Right. So we all get old and then we can't hack it anymore. Is that it?
SICK BOY: Yeah.
RENTON: That's your theory?
SICK BOY: Yeah. Beautifully f*****g illustrated.
RENTON: Give me the gun.
Last edited by Tyler_Durden; 04-26-04 at 03:24 PM.
#6
DVD Talk Godfather
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: City of the lakers.. riots.. and drug dealing cops.. los(t) Angel(e)s. ca.
Posts: 54,199
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally posted by Shannon Nutt
Because it takes much more than a good director to make a great film...the crew, cast and script all have to be great too!
Because it takes much more than a good director to make a great film...the crew, cast and script all have to be great too!
Now if you are talking about a director selling out, My friend, this is a business above all else. A director needs jobs so that he can work to making those films he wants to create.
#7
DVD Talk Godfather
Well its all relative. I don't think any director, no matter how good they are, will have a perfect track record because of the variety of people's tastes. Spielberg has pumped out a ton of quality movies, but he also made The Lost World and a couple of movies that have gotten mixed reactions, like Hook and AI. A Kevin Smith fan may not like Dogma or Jay and Silent Bob but absolutely love Clerks and Mallrats. There are Ridley Scott fans who hated Matchstick Men. No director is perfect simply because audiences tastes are too different. I mean, i actually liked McTiernan's Last Action Hero.
#8
Originally posted by fumanstan
Well its all relative. I don't think any director, no matter how good they are, will have a perfect track record because of the variety of people's tastes. Spielberg has pumped out a ton of quality movies, but he also made The Lost World and a couple of movies that have gotten mixed reactions, like Hook and AI. A Kevin Smith fan may not like Dogma or Jay and Silent Bob but absolutely love Clerks and Mallrats. There are Ridley Scott fans who hated Matchstick Men. No director is perfect simply because audiences tastes are too different. I mean, i actually liked McTiernan's Last Action Hero.
Well its all relative. I don't think any director, no matter how good they are, will have a perfect track record because of the variety of people's tastes. Spielberg has pumped out a ton of quality movies, but he also made The Lost World and a couple of movies that have gotten mixed reactions, like Hook and AI. A Kevin Smith fan may not like Dogma or Jay and Silent Bob but absolutely love Clerks and Mallrats. There are Ridley Scott fans who hated Matchstick Men. No director is perfect simply because audiences tastes are too different. I mean, i actually liked McTiernan's Last Action Hero.
#9
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Originally posted by Shannon Nutt
Because it takes much more than a good director to make a great film...the crew, cast and script all have to be great too!
Because it takes much more than a good director to make a great film...the crew, cast and script all have to be great too!
Let's not forget about Oliver Stone either - Platoon & The Doors (well, The Doors was pretty good) to Any Given Sunday??? Please.
#10
Moderator
Originally posted by PopcornTreeCt
No, no. Paul Thomas Anderson has a flawless track record. As does Wes Anderson and Quentin Tarantino.
No, no. Paul Thomas Anderson has a flawless track record. As does Wes Anderson and Quentin Tarantino.
#11
DVD Talk Godfather
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: City of the lakers.. riots.. and drug dealing cops.. los(t) Angel(e)s. ca.
Posts: 54,199
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I think it's best for us to assume he is being sarcastic. Anderson is far from having a perfect track record. and QT... two words Jackie Brown.
#12
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Jackskeleton
I think it's best for us to assume he is being sarcastic. Anderson is far from having a perfect track record. and QT... two words Jackie Brown.
I think it's best for us to assume he is being sarcastic. Anderson is far from having a perfect track record. and QT... two words Jackie Brown.
Heck, I agree PTA (let's not get him confused with the hack known as Paul Anderson) and Wes Anderson also sport great track records of nothing but great films. But again, some people wouldn't agree...I know Magnolia isn't exactly everyone's cup o tea.
Regarding why directors go bad...maybe people just lose their artistic steam? I mean, people get older, they change. The guy who made the Godfather is not the same guy we have today. If anything for Coppola Apocalypse Now seemed to have worn him out, along with the massive debt problems associated with his company. But it happens to a lot of people...you just have to look on a case by case.
#13
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by Jackskeleton
I think it's best for us to assume he is being sarcastic. Anderson is far from having a perfect track record. and QT... two words Jackie Brown.
I think it's best for us to assume he is being sarcastic. Anderson is far from having a perfect track record. and QT... two words Jackie Brown.
Jackie Brown was quite good IMO. The work of many directors really lies in the eye of the beholder in terms of quality questions.
That said, the above post proves a point; the kind of movie that one individual might think is flawless, another might find flawd beyond belief. Saying P.T. Anderson and Wes Anderson are flawless is a bold statement because many people might look at their films and think they are all boring and pointless. I wouldn't but several might.
The biggest case of a fallen director I think is John Schlesinger, who went from directing landmark films like Midnight Cowboy and Marathon Man and went to his grave with the last film on his resume being a horrid dud with Madonna and Rupert Everett. Can't remember the title, tried to tune it out of memory.
#14
Well I wasn't really being sarcastic. I think you guys expect too much out of directors. I liked Jackie Brown and Hard Eight. You could go back to the likes of Akira Kurosawa who made lots of GREAT movies but occasionally stumbled a bit. I agree with the concept that it takes more than a good director to make a good movie.
#15
Originally posted by Dr. DVD
Jackie Brown was quite good IMO. The work of many directors really lies in the eye of the beholder in terms of quality questions.
That said, the above post proves a point; the kind of movie that one individual might think is flawless, another might find flawd beyond belief. Saying P.T. Anderson and Wes Anderson are flawless is a bold statement because many people might look at their films and think they are all boring and pointless. I wouldn't but several might.
The biggest case of a fallen director I think is John Schlesinger, who went from directing landmark films like Midnight Cowboy and Marathon Man and went to his grave with the last film on his resume being a horrid dud with Madonna and Rupert Everett. Can't remember the title, tried to tune it out of memory.
Jackie Brown was quite good IMO. The work of many directors really lies in the eye of the beholder in terms of quality questions.
That said, the above post proves a point; the kind of movie that one individual might think is flawless, another might find flawd beyond belief. Saying P.T. Anderson and Wes Anderson are flawless is a bold statement because many people might look at their films and think they are all boring and pointless. I wouldn't but several might.
The biggest case of a fallen director I think is John Schlesinger, who went from directing landmark films like Midnight Cowboy and Marathon Man and went to his grave with the last film on his resume being a horrid dud with Madonna and Rupert Everett. Can't remember the title, tried to tune it out of memory.
Hollywood unfortunately does not operate in such a way where a director gets everything he wants every movie. It's a shame that even older accomplished directors such as Robert Wise and Robert Altman are not guaranteed financing for their next film. Its incredibly hard to get a movie made and even harder to have that movie come out good.
#16
DVD Talk Legend
What's really disheartening is the fact that some directors who used to be icons turn into hired guns with time. Arthur Penn, Peter Bogdanovich, and looks like Robert Altman might be taking that road as well.
#17
Moderator
To be a little more serious, I think this whole thread is based on erroneous thinking. For example, Coppola's track record before The Godfather was less than stellar. IMO most directors maintain the quality of their work much longer than musicians, to name another group. Welles is a very rare case of a director making his (arguably) masterpiece on the first try, then going downhill. Godard also started with a bang, and then got better, then worse, then better, and so on... Guys like Ford, Kurosawa, Bergman, et. al. made tons of movies before they hit their peaks.
OK, with rspect to Tarantino, I loved Reservoir Dogs, liked Pulp Fiction, and so on. I absolutely hated Kill Bill 1. One of the worst 'name' movies of recent years. As far as PT Anderson, I think he's a hack Robert Altman wannabe with one good movie (Hard Eight) to his credit. I think Wes Anderson's output ranges from good to mediocre.
Very few directors, even the true giants, were consistently great. I think Kubrick was, although he's not for everyone. Other than that, I can't think of anyone who IMO batted much above .500, to be honest.
OK, with rspect to Tarantino, I loved Reservoir Dogs, liked Pulp Fiction, and so on. I absolutely hated Kill Bill 1. One of the worst 'name' movies of recent years. As far as PT Anderson, I think he's a hack Robert Altman wannabe with one good movie (Hard Eight) to his credit. I think Wes Anderson's output ranges from good to mediocre.
Very few directors, even the true giants, were consistently great. I think Kubrick was, although he's not for everyone. Other than that, I can't think of anyone who IMO batted much above .500, to be honest.
#18
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
i don't think there are too many examples of this on par with coppola, who made some of the most brilliant films to come out of hollywood and then consistently made horribly bad movies (i mean, Jack?!?!? although i will say that godfather 3 should not get demonized as much as it does).
no director's track record is flawless, including all others mentioned in this thread, but also none of them have had the dramatic quality shift that coppola has had. i can't really think of someone else who took such a dive and never really recovered.
no director's track record is flawless, including all others mentioned in this thread, but also none of them have had the dramatic quality shift that coppola has had. i can't really think of someone else who took such a dive and never really recovered.
#19
DVD Talk Special Edition
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Archives, Indiana
Posts: 1,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some of us here obviously love Kill Bill Vols. 1 and 2, and there is a ton of fanfare for Jackie Brown as being a wonderful film a bit understated in comparison to QT's others. I think tons of us would argue that so far his track record is clean as a director. What keeps suprising me about KB is, it seems people on the forum are either gaga over it or absolutely detest it. At any rate, as to why good directors go bad......money. Age. Cynicism.
#21
DVD Talk Legend
Originally posted by Jackskeleton
I think it's best for us to assume he is being sarcastic. Anderson is far from having a perfect track record. and QT... two words Jackie Brown.
I think it's best for us to assume he is being sarcastic. Anderson is far from having a perfect track record. and QT... two words Jackie Brown.
#22
DVD Talk Legend
I think Sam Mendes has a perfect track record so far, but I know people are going to say he doesn't count because there should be at least a three-film minimum.
(Not that he's going to screw up Sweeney Todd)
(Not that he's going to screw up Sweeney Todd)
#23
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Tarantino himself brought up a good point on the Charlie Rose show when Pulp Fiction came out, it's on the PF DVD if you want to watch it.
Anyway, basically he said that there is a single movie that a director puts all his heart into and it winds up not being liked or well recieved. It really takes a lot out of the director and they are never the same. No reason why that movie failed though, it just happens. I guess because people aren't the same throughout their life, so you can't expect them to make movies that are all great.
Anyway, basically he said that there is a single movie that a director puts all his heart into and it winds up not being liked or well recieved. It really takes a lot out of the director and they are never the same. No reason why that movie failed though, it just happens. I guess because people aren't the same throughout their life, so you can't expect them to make movies that are all great.
#24
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: why do good directors go bad
Originally posted by sabre
why do good directors go bad?
why do good directors go bad?
#25
DVD Talk Godfather
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: City of the lakers.. riots.. and drug dealing cops.. los(t) Angel(e)s. ca.
Posts: 54,199
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally posted by Matt Millheiser
I feel Jackie Brown is not only a frickin' masterpiece, but Tarantino's best film.
I feel Jackie Brown is not only a frickin' masterpiece, but Tarantino's best film.