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The Passion - DVD Talk's Review Discussion

Old 03-17-04, 02:10 PM
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Here, we'll expand it a little further . . .
He went on to point out that anti-Semitism is not new to the area, and that his force recorded 91 hate crimes last year, up almost 70 per cent from 2002.

Twenty-four of last year's 91 reported hate crimes were against Jewish people, he said.

While the chief suggested part of this increase has to do with officers becoming better educated about what constitutes a hate crime, the numbers are supported by a recent audit from B'nai Brith, which shows anti-Semitic activity in Canada to be at its highest level in 20 years.

Of the 584 incidents that organization recorded across the country last year, 70 were in York Region, Ms. Bromberg said yesterday.
Old 03-17-04, 03:03 PM
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The article makes to mention of The Passion, so baracine made the connection himself.

If an elderly woman was killed while The Ladykillers is in theaters, you likely won't hear anyone making claims that it's because of the film.
Old 03-17-04, 03:14 PM
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... a recent audit from B'nai Brith, which shows anti-Semitic activity in Canada to be at its highest level in 20 years ...
So I guess Mel really is a marketing genius after all. He sure knows how to ride a wave...
Old 03-17-04, 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by PatrickMcCart
The article makes no mention of The Passion, so baracine made the connection himself.
You can't expect the Rhodes scholars who spelled "Jewz Suk" to come up with "Christ Killers (Mel said so)", do you?
Old 03-18-04, 07:56 AM
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Originally posted by baracine
You can't expect the Rhodes scholars who spelled "Jewz Suk" to come up with "Christ Killers (Mel said so)", do you?
All I can say is WOW...
Old 03-18-04, 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by Fernana
baracine - could you please list a few of these, I'm interested in seeing them.


Thanks!


Still waiting...........
Old 03-18-04, 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by Fernana
Still waiting...........
The reason I did not answer is that my personal listing of those films is all over the present thread, if you had taken the trouble of scanning it. See my opinions of Golgotha (1935), King of Kings (1961), The Greatest Story Ever Told (1965) and even Ben-Hur (1958).

This whole question is also the subject of another thread in "Movie Talk" called "Best Jesus Film", where you will also find my opinion of these films.

Last edited by baracine; 03-18-04 at 05:40 PM.
Old 03-18-04, 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by baracine
The reason I did not answer is that my personal listing of those films is all over the present thread, if you had taken the trouble of scanning it. See my opinions of Golgotha (1935), King of Kings (1961], The Greatest Story Ever Told (1965) and even Ben-Hur (1928).

This whole question is also the subject of another thread in "Movie Talk" called "Best Jesus Film", where you will also find my opinion of these films.
To be honest I found your point of view overly aggresive and obstinant, I chose not to read you "spew" because of that. I was merely looking for an answer to a simple question, as I also was raised Jesuit.

Thank you for your answer - spread your mis-aimed anger elsewhere.
Old 03-18-04, 02:38 PM
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Originally posted by Fernana
Thank you for your answer ...
You're welcome.
Old 03-18-04, 10:38 PM
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To mgbfan:

I never said there weren't people in the world who claim to be Christians who don't have (and display) contempt on a regular basis. But I also don't believe that's the attitude of a true Christian. I never said all Christians are free of contempt, I merely pointed out that if they practiced what they preached, that they WOULD be. That WAS my whole point.

And your analogy about Lost In Translation and Lord Of The Rings makes no sense. A person doesn't have to go to Tokyo to understand the events of that movie. It could have been set anywhere and the love story would have been the central story. Anyone who's ever been in love can relate to the story. Now if you'd asked me "could people who've never been in love have a valuable opinion on Lost In Translation," well, frankly, no I don't think they could. If you don't know what love is like (at least in theory), you're not going to understand what the core of that film is about. As for Lord Of The Rings, no has to have read the books to understand exactly what's going on in the films. The books enrich the experience, certainly, but it's not necessary to love the films in their own right. You're still grasping the essence of what JACKSON is saying with the movies even if you don't knwo the first thing about Tolkien. But I would agree that people who don't understand the concept of friendship, loyalty, sacrifice, good vs evil, or even of the value of fantasy as an important film genre cannot have a valuable opinion on the film. If you don't grasp those things, you're not going to be impacted by anything the filmmaker wants you to be impacted by, hence the experience will be empty for you on any meaningful level.

As far as The Passion Of The Christ is concerned, I do not believe anyone who doesn't have at least some level of emotional tie to Jesus (even if it's just upbringing) has any business even watching the film. I mean, ask yourself one question: if this film is not an emotional experience for you, then what purpose does it serve? Why go see it? If you don't have some understanding of why Jesus died, but simply know the facts of how he died, then you're basically going to leave the theater feeling like you've just watched an overly-violent, unnecessary film about a man who is tortured and killed. It won't resonate with you in a meaningful way. And with a film like this, that is made to be an emotional experience--made to make you FEEL and not just observe--any opinions on the film that exclude that aspect rob it of its power and turn a blind eye to what it's really saying. It would be like commenting on the filmmaking value of Lost In Translation without knowing what love is. Or critiquing Lord Of The Rings with a hatred of action films, science fiction, and fantasy. Or seeing The Passion without knowing in your heart as you watch it that Jesus died for YOU, and not just because he had conviction for something. An oversight that fundamental DOES, in my opinion, completely undermine that person's opinion since they are, in effect, missing the entire point.
Old 03-19-04, 08:37 AM
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It's quite disturbing how some of the most abusive posts on this thread are from avowed Christians. Obviously, these people are missing the point completely. As did this couple:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/03/18/pa....ap/index.html

You gotta laugh.
Old 03-19-04, 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by croweyes1121
...
As far as The Passion Of The Christ is concerned, I do not believe anyone who doesn't have at least some level of emotional tie to Jesus (even if it's just upbringing) has any business even watching the film. I mean, ask yourself one question: if this film is not an emotional experience for you, then what purpose does it serve? Why go see it? If you don't have some understanding of why Jesus died, but simply know the facts of how he died, then you're basically going to leave the theater feeling like you've just watched an overly-violent, unnecessary film about a man who is tortured and killed. It won't resonate with you in a meaningful way. And with a film like this, that is made to be an emotional experience--made to make you FEEL and not just observe--any opinions on the film that exclude that aspect rob it of its power and turn a blind eye to what it's really saying. It would be like commenting on the filmmaking value of Lost In Translation without knowing what love is. Or critiquing Lord Of The Rings with a hatred of action films, science fiction, and fantasy. Or seeing The Passion without knowing in your heart as you watch it that Jesus died for YOU, and not just because he had conviction for something. An oversight that fundamental DOES, in my opinion, completely undermine that person's opinion since they are, in effect, missing the entire point.
You seem to be missing the point that this is a movie and can be seen and judged as such.

In some ways, you are right. I do not believe in Jesus. I do not believe in God or Satan or anything supernatural and I do not believe in the "truth" of this film. I think it's a bad movie for cinematic reasons which I have given in this thread and others.

You say I can not have a valid opinion because it is undermined by my unbelief.

I have an analogy which may not be that good but I believe it has some validity. I do not believe there was a conspiracy to kill President Kennedy. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there is overwhelming evidence to that effect. I think Oliver Stone's movie JFK is, from the standpoint of history, one of the most false and downright stupid representations of an important event ever committed to celluloid.

Nevertheless, I find JFK fascinating and brilliant. It is a technical tour de force that is well acted and has an absorbing plot (I do have to suspend my disbelief but that is easy because the movie is so good). It's my favorite Oliver Stone film and I think it's a masterpiece. If Gibson had made a movie as good as Stone's I would love and admire it just as much, in spite of my beliefs.

Last edited by movielib; 03-19-04 at 11:29 AM.
Old 03-19-04, 10:58 AM
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Re: To mgbfan:

Originally posted by croweyes1121
I never said there weren't people in the world who claim to be Christians who don't have (and display) contempt on a regular basis. But I also don't believe that's the attitude of a true Christian. I never said all Christians are free of contempt, I merely pointed out that if they practiced what they preached, that they WOULD be. That WAS my whole point.

And your analogy about Lost In Translation and Lord Of The Rings makes no sense. A person doesn't have to go to Tokyo to understand the events of that movie. It could have been set anywhere and the love story would have been the central story. Anyone who's ever been in love can relate to the story. Now if you'd asked me "could people who've never been in love have a valuable opinion on Lost In Translation," well, frankly, no I don't think they could. If you don't know what love is like (at least in theory), you're not going to understand what the core of that film is about. As for Lord Of The Rings, no has to have read the books to understand exactly what's going on in the films. The books enrich the experience, certainly, but it's not necessary to love the films in their own right. You're still grasping the essence of what JACKSON is saying with the movies even if you don't knwo the first thing about Tolkien. But I would agree that people who don't understand the concept of friendship, loyalty, sacrifice, good vs evil, or even of the value of fantasy as an important film genre cannot have a valuable opinion on the film. If you don't grasp those things, you're not going to be impacted by anything the filmmaker wants you to be impacted by, hence the experience will be empty for you on any meaningful level.

As far as The Passion Of The Christ is concerned, I do not believe anyone who doesn't have at least some level of emotional tie to Jesus (even if it's just upbringing) has any business even watching the film. I mean, ask yourself one question: if this film is not an emotional experience for you, then what purpose does it serve? Why go see it? If you don't have some understanding of why Jesus died, but simply know the facts of how he died, then you're basically going to leave the theater feeling like you've just watched an overly-violent, unnecessary film about a man who is tortured and killed. It won't resonate with you in a meaningful way. And with a film like this, that is made to be an emotional experience--made to make you FEEL and not just observe--any opinions on the film that exclude that aspect rob it of its power and turn a blind eye to what it's really saying. It would be like commenting on the filmmaking value of Lost In Translation without knowing what love is. Or critiquing Lord Of The Rings with a hatred of action films, science fiction, and fantasy. Or seeing The Passion without knowing in your heart as you watch it that Jesus died for YOU, and not just because he had conviction for something. An oversight that fundamental DOES, in my opinion, completely undermine that person's opinion since they are, in effect, missing the entire point.
I don't believe in your post, in fact I think it is wrong on so many levels, plus I have no emotional ties to it, and because of these things, I will make no comment because my opinion is not valid. Only those that agree with it, believe in it, and are moved by it will have anything credible to offer....

p.s. TPOTC aroused plenty of emotion in me, but in a different way than most people, does this count?

Last edited by dave-o; 03-19-04 at 11:02 AM.
Old 03-19-04, 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by baracine
Relax, guys! I wouldn't want to see this film if you paid me. It's bad enough having to live with the film's continuous blaring publicity. This morning, for instance, Toronto woke up to a rash of swastikas painted on the doors of residents of Jewish neighbourhoods with the words "Jews Suk"... It has begun...

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/...uery=vandalism

Gee, it just must be the movie, then. That stuff never happened before.
Old 03-19-04, 12:24 PM
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Re: To mgbfan:

Originally posted by croweyes1121
As far as The Passion Of The Christ is concerned, I do not believe anyone who doesn't have at least some level of emotional tie to Jesus (even if it's just upbringing) has any business even watching the film.
I think that's an absurd position to take. Regardless of whether you're a real Christian, the story of Jesus (taken as truth or myth ... either way) is one of the most powerful and motivating stories in history. Perhaps THE single most impactful story ever on world history. Ever. Again, it doesn't matter if you see the story as truth or myth - it's no difference as to the question of whether the story of Jesus is/was one of the major forces that shaped the modern world.

For you to sit there and say that only believers have a right to an opinion on that is just absurd. Let's talk about Saving Private Ryan. Do only Normandy veterans get an opinion about that? I've never been in a battle, so despite the movie being about one of the central battles of the biggest war in modern history, is my opinion of it meaningless and moot?

We're talking about world history here. We're all invested, believers or not, veterans or not. You don't get exclusive rights merely because you happen to be a believer in the history/myth (again - I always acknowledge this as a choice like a good agnostic).

Originally posted by croweyes1121
I mean, ask yourself one question: if this film is not an emotional experience for you, then what purpose does it serve?
Who said it's only emotional to Christians? Did you see Gladiator? Did you believe that Crowe's character was real and experienced everything depicted in the movie?

Of course you didn't. Were you still emotionally involved and moved by the story and characters? I'm betting you were. I was. You don't have to believe a story is true to be emotionally invested and involved in a character.

Originally posted by croweyes1121
Why go see it?
Because it looked like a powerful movie? Isn't it just possible some people see it not because they want some sort of reaffirmation of their beliefs, but because they found the subject interesting or thought the previews looked good or just because they like epics and have an interest in a story that has shaped the world?

Originally posted by croweyes1121
If you don't have some understanding of why Jesus died, but simply know the facts of how he died, then you're basically going to leave the theater feeling like you've just watched an overly-violent, unnecessary film about a man who is tortured and killed. It won't resonate with you in a meaningful way.
Let's be real here, croweyes. Christianity is thick throughout the Western world, especially the United States. I don't think there are many folks out there who truly don't have a sense of the "why" behind the history/myth of Jesus's death. Whether you're a believer or not, you have a sense of Jesus's dying on the cross for our sins. You don't live in this world without being exposed to that. And if, by some freakish chance, you do, then Gibson explains it to us at the very beginning of the movie as Satan talks to Jesus.

Originally posted by croweyes1121
And with a film like this, that is made to be an emotional experience--made to make you FEEL and not just observe--any opinions on the film that exclude that aspect rob it of its power and turn a blind eye to what it's really saying.
Again, this assertation that only believers can be emotional about this movie is wrong and, frankly, enormously self-serving.

Originally posted by croweyes1121
It would be like commenting on the filmmaking value of Lost In Translation without knowing what love is. Or critiquing Lord Of The Rings with a hatred of action films, science fiction, and fantasy.
If you're saying people who hate ALL films based on history or religion don't have a valid opinion, that would be an analogy. And even so, they still have a perfectly valid opinion, merely a predetermined one.

Your analogy falls apart very quickly, though, in the present situation. I don't know of anybody here who has said The Passion sucks because ALL religious or historical films suck. Your analogy is self-serving garbage.

Originally posted by croweyes1121
Or seeing The Passion without knowing in your heart as you watch it that Jesus died for YOU, and not just because he had conviction for something. An oversight that fundamental DOES, in my opinion, completely undermine that person's opinion since they are, in effect, missing the entire point.
It all boils down to something pretty simple, doesn't it. "My opinion counts and yours doesn't, and only because I say so."

If you truly believe that moviegoers can only become emotionally involved in what they believe to be true stories ... you're either missing the chance to enjoy a whole lot of movies or you're just digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself.
Old 03-19-04, 12:30 PM
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It seems to me that only people who have had family members devoured by zombies should be allowed to see Dawn of the Dead. After all, they are the only ones who can understand the film on an emotional level.
Old 03-19-04, 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by Groucho
It seems to me that only people who have had family members devoured by zombies should be allowed to see Dawn of the Dead. After all, they are the only ones who can understand the film on an emotional level.
I'm going to see it. Damn zombies ate my brother.
Old 03-19-04, 12:51 PM
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Lighten Up!

Oh, hell, people, get a grip. I'm NOT saying people can't have opinions and I'm not saying that everyone DOESN'T (apparently) have one). I never said that. Someone asked me to explain why I thought people who understood the meaning beind this film had a more valid and valuable opinion than those who didn't, and I did that. You can agree or disagree with me on that, fair enough. But I'm not trying to insinuate that non-Christians can't get the film. For the record, I'm not a practicing Christian although I feel the film brought out a lot of emotions in me that I didn't know were there from my religious upbringing and background. I wish you people would stop making ridiculous analogies to things I've said to make them seem ore outlandish than they are. Who the hell would say you couldn't see Lost In Translation if you haven't been to Tokyo? Or that you couldn't see Saving Private Ryan if you weren't a veteran? Do you think someone's opinion on Saving Private Ryan is valid if they don't have a sense of the value of life and death? Well, I don't. Agree or disagree, but don't say I'm being stupid. I'm just stating my case like everyone else here. I'm not "attacking" anyone, just pointing out that those who get emotionally involved in this film (and no, that does NOT exclude non-christians--it's just that a LITTLE christianity DOES help, can we agree on that at least?) are going to get more out of it than those looking at it objectively as a piece of cinema with no spiritual connotation for them personally. THAT, to me, is stupid. But I guess I'm in the minority here.
Old 03-19-04, 01:01 PM
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Re: Lighten Up!

Originally posted by croweyes1121
I'm not "attacking" anyone, just pointing out that those who get emotionally involved in this film (and no, that does NOT exclude non-christians--it's just that a LITTLE christianity DOES help, can we agree on that at least?) are going to get more out of it than those looking at it objectively as a piece of cinema with no spiritual connotation for them personally. THAT, to me, is stupid. But I guess I'm in the minority here.
But...it is a piece of cinema. Thus, it is perfectly valid to look at it as a piece of cinema. A spiritual connection isn't an imperative.

Meanwhile, I must mention that I am the only one who can really connect with Who Framed Roger Rabbit, because my brother was killed by a toon.
Old 03-19-04, 01:11 PM
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Re: Lighten Up!

Originally posted by croweyes1121
Oh, hell, people, get a grip. I'm NOT saying people can't have opinions and I'm not saying that everyone DOESN'T (apparently) have one). I never said that. Someone asked me to explain why I thought people who understood the meaning beind this film had a more valid and valuable opinion than those who didn't,
Now you're engaging in some revisionist history. That's not really what you were saying. A few quotes from you are below:

"And if Christ ISN'T a part of your life or philosophy, then you need to ask yourself what possible value your opinions on this film really contain."

"As far as The Passion Of The Christ is concerned, I do not believe anyone who doesn't have at least some level of emotional tie to Jesus (even if it's just upbringing) has any business even watching the film. "

You're backtracking now. Maybe you realize the absurdity of what you were saying, maybe you just don't like the heat. But you're most definatly backtracking.

Originally posted by croweyes1121
and I did that. You can agree or disagree with me on that, fair enough. But I'm not trying to insinuate that non-Christians can't get the film.
Then why did you say: "I do not believe anyone who doesn't have at least some level of emotional tie to Jesus (even if it's just upbringing) has any business even watching the film. "

Originally posted by croweyes1121
I wish you people would stop making ridiculous analogies to things I've said to make them seem ore outlandish than they are. Who the hell would say you couldn't see Lost In Translation if you haven't been to Tokyo? Or that you couldn't see Saving Private Ryan if you weren't a veteran? Do you think someone's opinion on Saving Private Ryan is valid if they don't have a sense of the value of life and death? Well, I don't. Agree or disagree, but don't say I'm being stupid. I'm just stating my case like everyone else here. I'm not "attacking" anyone, just pointing out that those who get emotionally involved in this film (and no, that does NOT exclude non-christians
Then why did you say: "I do not believe anyone who doesn't have at least some level of emotional tie to Jesus (even if it's just upbringing) has any business even watching the film. "

Originally posted by croweyes1121
--it's just that a LITTLE christianity DOES help, can we agree on that at least?)
No, I don't think we can. Being Christian changes your perspective, no doubt, but it doesn't make your opinion any more valuable.

Originally posted by croweyes1121
are going to get more out of it than those looking at it objectively as a piece of cinema with no spiritual connotation for them personally. THAT, to me, is stupid. But I guess I'm in the minority here.
Keep backtracking and at this rate you'll soon rejoin the majority.
Old 03-19-04, 01:13 PM
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Re: Re: Lighten Up!

Originally posted by Suprmallet
But...it is a piece of cinema. Thus, it is perfectly valid to look at it as a piece of cinema. A spiritual connection isn't an imperative.

Meanwhile, I must mention that I am the only one who can really connect with Who Framed Roger Rabbit, because my brother was killed by a toon.
That's exactly what I was thinking of when I revealed my brother was eaten by zombies.
Old 03-19-04, 01:15 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Lighten Up!

Originally posted by movielib
That's exactly what I was thinking of when I revealed my brother was eaten by zombies.
Actually, it was your post that reminded me of Roger Rabbit. I must give credit where credit is due.

"Remember me, Eddie? I'm the toon that killed your brother!"
Old 03-19-04, 01:16 PM
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Re: Re: Lighten Up!

Originally posted by mgbfan
Now you're engaging in some revisionist history. That's not really what you were saying. A few quotes from you are below:

"And if Christ ISN'T a part of your life or philosophy, then you need to ask yourself what possible value your opinions on this film really contain."

"As far as The Passion Of The Christ is concerned, I do not believe anyone who doesn't have at least some level of emotional tie to Jesus (even if it's just upbringing) has any business even watching the film. "

You're backtracking now. Maybe you realize the absurdity of what you were saying, maybe you just don't like the heat. But you're most definatly backtracking.


Then why did you say: "I do not believe anyone who doesn't have at least some level of emotional tie to Jesus (even if it's just upbringing) has any business even watching the film. "


Then why did you say: "I do not believe anyone who doesn't have at least some level of emotional tie to Jesus (even if it's just upbringing) has any business even watching the film. "



No, I don't think we can. Being Christian changes your perspective, no doubt, but it doesn't make your opinion any more valuable.


Keep backtracking and at this rate you'll soon rejoin the majority.
Nailed.

(No pun intended.)

Last edited by movielib; 03-19-04 at 01:20 PM.
Old 03-19-04, 01:50 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Lighten Up!

Originally posted by movielib
Nailed.
         
mgbfan         n00b        movielib





Old 03-19-04, 01:51 PM
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Atheists,

I have to give you all credit. Despite the overwhelming evidence on this planet of a "higher power", "God", "Allah", "Creator" or whatever you want to call "it", you refuse to believe. That really takes balls.

cya in hell.











just kidding.


peace.

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