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You know what's really ridiculous about all the LOTR movies?

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You know what's really ridiculous about all the LOTR movies?

Old 12-22-03, 03:07 PM
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You know what's really ridiculous about all the LOTR movies?

<rant>
That Gandalf the "powerful mage" doesn't ever use magic. Aside from the brief bubble/shield he put up against the Balrog, the only magic he ever does is make light with his walking stick. Gimme a break! He fights like a normal soldier, whacking orcs with his stick one at a time. Where's his power?! As a "wielder of the secret flame" you'd think he'd use it to toast a few orcs from a good distance. Don't even get me started on the duel between him and Saruman. What a joke! They were just tripping and punching each other with some "invisible force", like some clowns. To top it all off, Gandalf becames helpless once he lost his stick, as if that stick contained the only power he was wielding.

Pathetic.

<end of rant>
Old 12-22-03, 03:12 PM
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I thought of this too. What can he actually do that is magical? I do not expect huge all powerful feats but something more than a flash of bright light once every other battle.
Old 12-22-03, 03:22 PM
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It's been a LONG time since I've read the books.. but if you listen to the commentaries Peter Jackson seems to be VERY against wizards in movies.. so bearing in mind that Gandalf actually does magical stuff in the books, blame the director for his lack of it in the movies.
Old 12-22-03, 03:22 PM
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He's not supposed to do much except act as a guardian angel. The theme of LOTR is that men are supposed to defeat sauron in order to continue surviving.
Old 12-22-03, 03:23 PM
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Originally posted by PixyJunket
It's been a LONG time since I've read the books.. but if you listen to the commentaries Peter Jackson seems to be VERY against wizards in movies.. so bearing in mind that Gandalf actually does magical stuff in the books, blame the director for his lack of it in the movies.
I don't really remember him performing a lot of magic in the books either.
Old 12-22-03, 03:39 PM
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I have always thought that his power was more in his wisdom than in tossing fireballs.
Old 12-22-03, 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by al_bundy
I don't really remember him performing a lot of magic in the books either.
Okay!
Old 12-22-03, 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by DeputyDave
I have always thought that his power was more in his wisdom than in tossing fireballs.
That's beside the point. He is portrayed as a mage (not as a wiseman) and doesn't at all act like one. The rumbling speech of Mordor (which he uses in FoTR) is not *his* magic. I did forget to mention the magic he used when he got angry at Frodo's Uncle (forgot his name). The fireworks were also not magic - they were fireworks.

I thought that the director was simply afraid of displaying magic on the screen, so he let us see "magical effects" disguised under different names. I thought he was afraid that people wouldn't take his movies seriously (if he showned magic in use). But if what PixyJunket says is true; if he actually has an aversion to Mages, then all I can say is that he was not the right man to direct this series (or set of movies). A director that was a fan of the story and of fantasy in general would do a better job. All imo, of course.
Old 12-22-03, 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by PixyJunket
Okay!
Can you refresh our memory then? When did gandalf use magic in the books that aren't in the theater or EE versions?
Old 12-22-03, 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by yummyyummy
That's beside the point. He is portrayed as a mage (not as a wiseman) and doesn't at all act like one. The rumbling speech of Mordor (which he uses in FoTR) is not *his* magic. I did forget to mention the magic he used when he got angry at Frodo's Uncle (forgot his name). The fireworks were also not magic - they were fireworks.

I thought that the director was simply afraid of displaying magic on the screen, so he let us see "magical effects" disguised under different names. I thought he was afraid that people wouldn't take his movies seriously (if he showned magic in use). But if what PixyJunket says is true; if he actually has an aversion to Mages, then all I can say is that he was not the right man to direct this series (or set of movies). A director that was a fan of the story and of fantasy in general would do a better job. All imo, of course.
You will note that there is little "magic" in LOTR the BOOKS. And I feel the intent of Tolkien's magic was properly displayed in the movies. Gandalf is not sent to use magic to make what is to happen happen, he is sent to encourage and enflame the hearts of men and elves to make things happen....

Tolkien's work relied on almost none of the "Classic" D&D mage/wizard magic. No spells, no flashy displays of power. No transfiguration. Gandalf's magic was less visible, more internal.
Old 12-22-03, 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by wlmowery
You will note that there is little "magic" in LOTR the BOOKS. And I feel the intent of Tolkien's magic was properly displayed in the movies. Gandalf is not sent to use magic to make what is to happen happen, he is sent to encourage and enflame the hearts of men and elves to make things happen....

Tolkien's work relied on almost none of the "Classic" D&D mage/wizard magic. No spells, no flashy displays of power. No transfiguration. Gandalf's magic was less visible, more internal.
Gandalf even broke d&d rules by wielding a sword instead of spending all his time locked up in some tower studying books that almost no one cares about.
Old 12-22-03, 04:10 PM
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Originally posted by al_bundy
Can you refresh our memory then? When did gandalf use magic in the books that aren't in the theater or EE versions?
I was okaying you saying there wasn't much magic in the books. Not saying you were wrong.
Old 12-22-03, 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by wlmowery
You will note that there is little "magic" in LOTR the BOOKS. And I feel the intent of Tolkien's magic was properly displayed in the movies. Gandalf is not sent to use magic to make what is to happen happen, he is sent to encourage and enflame the hearts of men and elves to make things happen....

Tolkien's work relied on almost none of the "Classic" D&D mage/wizard magic. No spells, no flashy displays of power. No transfiguration. Gandalf's magic was less visible, more internal.
That makes me feel better then. I never did read those books. I did grow up on D&D though, so that would explain why I had different expectations.

Thanks for explaining it for me.
Old 12-22-03, 04:26 PM
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didn't D&D come out way after LOTR and wasn't it based on LOTR? I thought that TSR first started shipping D&D in the late 1960's and kids starting converting to satanism shortly afterwards.
Old 12-22-03, 04:31 PM
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Yes D&D post-dates LOTR by about 25 years. While the popularity in D&D may in part spring from the popularity of Tolkien's work, it is more directly related to the great increase in general in sci-fi fantasy concepts during the 40s through the 70s.

But all of that is background and most today think of the D&D wizard when the term wizard is used. However, in mythological tales (of which LOTR is a modern example), a wizard can mean many things, and commonly refers not to a MAGICIAN but to a learned man, a lore handler, a counselor....

The wizards in Tolkien's Middle Earth obviously have special powers, but are not in the D&D mold. They are sent to guide the inhibitants of Middle Earth.
Old 12-22-03, 06:24 PM
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To me its not just a fukn golf club that he uses to kill orcs
His magic is just not flashy stuff except maybe the fireworks at the shire

Same as Sauron. Sauron and gandalf are the same kind, just Sauron is more powerful

In the beggining of fellowship sauron smashes the men and elves with his power, and I did not see anyone whining
Im sure gandalf's blows have some magic in it too, to woop the orcs
Old 12-22-03, 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by yummyyummy
<rant>
That Gandalf the "powerful mage" doesn't ever use magic. Aside from the brief bubble/shield he put up against the Balrog, the only magic he ever does is make light with his walking stick. Gimme a break! He fights like a normal soldier, whacking orcs with his stick one at a time. Where's his power?! As a "wielder of the secret flame" you'd think he'd use it to toast a few orcs from a good distance. Don't even get me started on the duel between him and Saruman. What a joke! They were just tripping and punching each other with some "invisible force", like some clowns. To top it all off, Gandalf becames helpless once he lost his stick, as if that stick contained the only power he was wielding.

Pathetic.

<end of rant>
Gandalf can't fling balls of fire at orcs. The light from his walking stick you mentioned is more of the type of power Gandalf has. The giant white beam of light he shot at the Nazgul as they attacked the men fleeing from Osgiliath didn't seem like magic to you?

The ring of Fire, Narya, which Gandalf wields enhances his ability to produce primarily light alone as well as producing actual warmth and heat. On another level, his power allowed him to "kindle the spirit" of those around him. He lights the flame in people's hearts, instilling courage, action, etc... The Nazgul have a power opposite to this, causing men to feel cold and terror just by their very presence.

A couple other instances of Gandalf using magic off the top of my head include:

FOTR: Shaped the rushing water that swept away Nazgul outside Rivendell into horses (in the books at least)

TT: When Aaragorn, Gimili, and Legolas first encounter Gandalf, bathed in light, he effortlessly deflects arrows and axes which dissappear into white light and Aaragorn's sword drops from his hand as if on fire.

TT: Gandalf breaks the spell on Theoden.

Originally posted by yummyyummy
The fireworks were also not magic - they were fireworks.
I've never seen a firework that can turn into a giant dragon that flies across the sky and swoops over my head... have you? Gandalf's fireworks aren't regular fireworks.
Old 12-22-03, 07:44 PM
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I thought Elrond was responsible for the water rush in FOTR? Time to give the books a re-read, I think.
Old 12-22-03, 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by Corvin
I thought Elrond was responsible for the water rush in FOTR? Time to give the books a re-read, I think.
Elrond was responsible for the water rush, yes. Gandalf shaped the water into horses heads though.
Old 12-22-03, 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by Astro
Elrond was responsible for the water rush, yes. Gandalf shaped the water into horses heads though.
And soldiers. In the book the waters were shaped like soldiers mounted on horses.
Old 12-22-03, 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by Corvin
I thought Elrond was responsible for the water rush in FOTR? Time to give the books a re-read, I think.
Just so we're on the same page, I was saying that I need to give the books a re-read, because I can't recall such details clearly.
Old 12-22-03, 10:17 PM
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Originally posted by Corvin
Just so we're on the same page, I was saying that I need to give the books a re-read, because I can't recall such details clearly.
That's what I figured... I need to reread them too though.
Old 12-22-03, 11:39 PM
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Originally posted by al_bundy
Gandalf even broke d&d rules by wielding a sword instead of spending all his time locked up in some tower studying books that almost no one cares about.
Old 12-22-03, 11:56 PM
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In the books, Gandalf defends himself against the Nazgul at Weathertop on his way to Rivendell. This would have been a big improvement over the fight between him and Saruman if they would have included it in the movie IMO.

Gandalf against the Nazgul is something that I was hoping to see in ROTK because of what I saw in the preview on The Two Towers DVD, but it wasn't in the theatrical cut. Now my only hope is the EE of ROTK.
Old 12-23-03, 12:11 AM
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I really need to read the books.

I just don't understand why Gandalf just can't defeat everybody with his powers.

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