TCG

well, on TTT:EE disc 3, the peps who made the movie comment on how WWI and II affected Tolkien. i know that he SAYS the books are not metaphorical, but even PJ's team says, in a sense, that there are elements from the book that were affected by WW2. i dont remember the what exactly they said, but watch the first couple docs. on disc 3.

Blade

Menu's have been around for as long as there have been places to buy food to eat from.

In fact, the Hobbits met Aragorn in an inn that probably had a menu.

The problem with the quote, if there is any, is that it sounds a little modern in tone.
I tend to agree with you. I do agree that Tolkien was absolutely not creating an allegorical tale of WWII (which is to say, that his story was meant to be a representation of WWII). But to think that WWII, WWI, and the questions the two wars raised didn't heavily influence his writing is absurd. It's all over the book, and the movie as well. It's not a retelling of either of these wars, but his story, because it is told so richly, gives us a perspective on what happenned and why they happenned.

Giantrobo

and how does Gimli know what a nervous system is?

Josh-da-man

The peoples of Middle Earth appear to have a reasonable grasp of science -- by my estimation, I'd say that they were at least as advanced as the Rennaisance of our current era. Though their "technology" seems to magickal in nature.

I'd also say that the Elves -- and likely the Numenorians -- would probably have a good understanding of basic anatomy and physiology.

Michael Corvin

I'm loving this thread. Anyone else notice any modern items in the films?

QuiGonJosh

Ok...I've got one...now I've read the books many times and I know my Middle Earth...but...I cant quite seem to get something...okay...Treebeard stumbles upon Isengard...awakens the Ents and the Trees...now the Trees behind them it seems have business with the Orcs...so after the Orcs run from Helms Deep into the trees that were not there before at all...I didnt see them at all...so I guess my question is how the hell did those trees get there...they werent Ents...they were Trees...so how the hell did they get there...the time doesnt make sense...when the Ents attack Isengard...its almost dusk...at Helms Deep its morning...I realize that Isengard is probably behind in time than Helms Deep...but still I dont see how this happened...someone please help me out here...

Giantrobo

maybe you missed this .... " "

Giantrobo

ok, IIRC the the trees moved fast in the book. Didn't some of the characters comment on things rushing by them as they marched to war or something like that? I think there's even a part in the book were Forests just "appear overnight" if not quicker. The trees were wild and savage unlike the Ents. Remember Ents are "tree herders" and they have a kind of control over them.



Really?

QuiGonJosh

Well...its been about a year since I read the LOTR Trilogy...guess I better get crackin on it again...I forget so many of the small details...thanks...

B.A.

Yep, you remembered correctly. The Ents and Huorns could move very quickly. And the Huorns are much more wild than the Ents. Treebeard says something to the affect that they have become more "treeish" over the years, and in that respect they are much wilder and dangerous to outsiders. Since there are so few Ents, it's harder to control them as they once would have - though the Ents do relegate more control at Helm's Deep - they let Gandalf, Theoden and Co. move through the wood (a few Ents popped out after they travelled through and acknowledged them, then the forest passed them up at night at the Fords of the Isen.)

I just finished the first half of TTT a week ago, so most of this still fresh in my noggin.

Iron Chef

The Nazis only had one vision of the world, just like Sauron did.

syphon00

never read the books so this might seem like a silly question
what is Aragorn( I know the name of the race, don't know how it's spelled)

but is he human? in the EE he mentions that he was raised in Rivendell and that he was over 80 years old

caligulathegod

Here's the long answer.

Aragorn was human but Numenorean. Back at the end of the First Age the Valar (the gods) came and finally defeated Morgoth, (the Satan) the first dark lord, once and for all. Elves came with them from Valinor and also some of the Moriquendi (Elves that did not heed the original summons to go to Valinor and had remained in Middle-earth) and descendents of Beor (one of the first houses of Men to come into the Western lands) and other Houses of Men who remained loyal to the Elves fought in the battle. Men were forbidden to go to Valinor to live with the Valar so as a reward they were given an Island homeland that lay between Middle-earth and The Undying Lands. Their only requirement was that they never set foot on the Undying Lands. The Men of Numenor were given life spans three times that of normal humans. It was forbidden for the Valar to give them the Immortality of the Elves, for the Doom of man (Dying) was also the Gift of Illuvatar (God). Elves do not die of old age or sickness but can be slain and their spirits remain in the world, going to the Halls of Mandos in the land of the Valar. Men, when they die, go beyond the circles of the world, presumably to live with God, Himself. No one really knows.
Anyway, the first King of Numenor was Elros, the brother of Elrond. They were Half-elven and were given the choice of which Kindred to belong. Elrond chose Elves and Elros chose Men. Elros lived 500 years. His descendents ruled Numenor for over 3000 years. They were kind of like England in its heyday. They were rulers of the High seas and were powerful.
Sauron, who was the first Lieutenant of Morgoth, arose in Middle-earth in disguise as an emissary of the Valar and taught the Elves how to make Rings of Power. He made the One Ring to rule the other Rings and the Elves hid theirs. Sauron launched a war against the Elves and the Numenoreans came and were so powerful that Sauron surrendered to them. They took him as hostage to Numenor and in just a couple years he talked his way into becoming the head advisor to the King. He talked them into attacking the Valar on the Undying Lands. Once they set foot upon the Land, the Valar gave up their governance of the world and Illuvatar physically removed the Undying Lands from the Earth and made the Earth round (it was flat before). Then men could go any direction and would end up in the same spot, eventually. The removal of the continent of Aman caused a great cataclysm and Numenor sank beneath the Sea, taking all the people and Sauron with it (Yes, this is Atlantis). There were certain men who were loyal to the Elves and did not listen to Sauron. They were Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion and their fleet of ships. They rode the tsunami back to Middle-earth and established Kingdoms. Elendil ruled the northern kingdom of Arnor and Isildur and Anarion co-ruled the southern kingdom of Gondor (these are the Kings of the Giant Argonath statues. That was the border of their Southern Kingdom). Sauron's spirit arose and took up the Ring again and created a new body in Mordor and launched a full-scale war on Middle-earth. Gil-galad and the Elves joined with Elendil and in the Last Alliance of Men and Elves defeated Sauron. Gil-galad and Elendil (and Anarion)were killed in the fight, but they physically defeated Sauron, who was still weakened because his body was new (it took a lot of power to create a new body each time for Sauron-that's why it took 3000 years to create a new one after this). Elendil's son Isildur took his father's broken sword and cut off the Ring and Sauron was vanquished.
Because Isildur was the eldest son, he went to rule the Northern Kingdom of his father while Anarion's heir ruled Gondor. Isildur had many sons and the youngest of these stayed in Rivendell. Orcs attacked him and his eldest sons and he lost the Ring. The youngest son became the third King of Arnor.
Years later, the Kingdom split when the 10th King's sons divided the kingdom into three smaller kingdoms. Over time they died out and the line of the Kings went into the Wilderness and became Rangers. Arthedain, the kingdom of the eldest son, is the line from which Aragorn descends.
Meanwhile, in the southern kingdom, 2000 years or so after the fall of Sauron, the King of Gondor was "called out" by the Lord of the Nazgul in Minus Morgul and was never heard from again. Since they did not know what had happened to the King, they set up a steward to rule until the King returned. A thousand years later, Aragorn, the direct line descendent of Elendil through Isildur, defeated Sauron and became King of Gondor and the reunited Kingdom of Arnor. His blood remained relatively pure and he lived 210 years.



(edited for spelling)

RoboDad

Wow. Very well done! I think you summed it up very nicely, and you probably did it in less than half the length it would have taken me to say the same thing.

B.A.

I was just thinking the same thing after reading his well-written post. It would have taken me a page or two to establish that and I still wouldn't be happy w/ it.

Jepthah

The Hobbits of the Shire have agriculture and a postal service. The dwarves are highly advanced in architecture and metallurgy. The Elves are mentioned in the book as making 'magical toys' that are handed out at Bilbo's b-day party, and who knows what else. Clearly Middle-Earth is not all medieval squalor.

Cusm

I always hate when movies use fictional terms. The next crossing is 20 bralems away. So is that close? Or is that an eternity away?

Time is not that bad, 9 can always be 9, if it AM or fudo, if it is light it is morning, dark night - got it.
Date is seasonal so it a little more important to get a better association. Is Hunther 12th, the first day of spring, summer, fall or winter? It can matter, and without extreme indicators (snow on the ground, leaves falling, etc) you may not know what time of year.

island007

Thanks caligulathegod, that answers quite a few questions.

condorito

I bet tolkien was more affected by ww1 than ww2
He participed in ww1 i think and saw friends dying, which is like the dead marshes

The only true reference I did see in the extended version the crew mentions that was straight from ww2 was saruman's voice was hypnotic, kinda like hitler

btw that post explaining aragorn was great

Kumar J

There was Gun Powder used by Saruman and Uruk Hai to attack Helms Deep

al_bundy

I always thought there were more ents than those that attacked isengard. There are those that live near the shire too.

sd_smoker

I believe the trees that attacked the fleeing army were Huorns, not the Ents that attacked Isengard.

atimoc

Thanks, great post.

I've wanted to know the main points of LOTR history but I lack the concentration to wade through Silmarillion.

caligulathegod

Glad you enjoyed. Most of it is in Silmarillion but some of it is in Unfinished Tales. I think I've given a decent view of the "big picture", though.

I fixed a reference to Anarion. He was slain at the Seige of Barad Dur with Elendil and his heirs went to rule Gondor when Isildur went to Arnor.

Ephemeral_Life

Miles used to be a pretty ubiquitous unit of measurement in the western world, long before anyone even though of kilometers. Considering that Lord of the Rings was designed as a "new myth" for England, the reference is quite appropriate IMHO.

Also, the "Lord of the Rings" (i.e. Sauron) made its first appearance in the writing of the books before WW II started. That was when Frodo was still called Bingo, and he was traveling with Frodo and Marmaduke.