NYTimes Article
06-03-03, 01:57 PM
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NYTimes Article
This was in Sunday's New York Times and it is a pretty good summation of how I feel about M:R
June 1, 2003
A Memo to the Wachowskis From a Disappointed Fan
By PHILIP GRAHAM
WHEN my 16-year-old son and I left the multiplex on opening night of "The Matrix Reloaded," he shook his head in disappointment — the same slow, sad gesture he'd made four years ago as we left the theater after seeing "Star Wars: Episode 1 — The Phantom Menace." No, the Wachowski brothers hadn't perpetrated anything as egregious as Jar-Jar Binks. But they had still dropped the ball, big time, and all that anticipation for "The Matrix Reloaded" now seemed like a bad fever dream.
I know it's too late for my comments to be of any help. The movie's out, the third installment is already in the can. But what's really been bothering me — what I can't stop thinking about — is how much better the film would have been with just a few well-targeted tweaks. Wachowski brothers: if you ever get a chance to reload your own movie, perhaps these modest suggestions might assist you.
• Keep the nasty industrial grind music. It worked perfectly for the first movie. In "Reloaded," something techno and rude occasionally rears its ugly head, but it's too often drowned out by an orchestra and a cloying heavenly choir. When the score starts copping Igor Stravinsky and Philip Glass, the pretension just begs to be beaten with a sheaf of batons. Granted, the "Matrix" movies are designed to be pretentious, with all those dopey names like Morpheus and Trinity (and how about, for future films, Piety, or Eucharist, or Pompous?). But they should be a cool kind of pretentious, with more scary guitars and such in the background.
• Get us out of Zion, and fast. Cut the beginning by at least 20 minutes. No one cares about the petty rivalries in this underground outpost of humanity. Remember: gray-haired elders intoning wisdom equals narrative death. If we have to be in Zion, keep the sets small and constricted. Zion is just too unbelievably big. It doesn't seem vulnerable, doesn't enlist our sympathy for this put-upon rebel community.
As for that interminable group-grope of a dance, it's such a slow-moving target that I needn't say another word.
• Scare us, please. Let's see much more of those Machine-Spider-Thingies, as they bear down on Zion. Their ominous advance is the equivalent of that hoary old movie stand-by, the ticking clock. Keep reminding us, visually, that the nasty, tentacled gizmos are getting closer and closer. We shouldn't have to wait until nearly the end of the second hour for our first glimpse of them.
• Speaking of scare tactics, I have to admit that the Merovingian's programmed food is a good one. When he sends the chocolate cake to the blonde, we worry that perhaps something worse than weight gain is about to happen to her.
When she sighs with pleasure, we feel relieved — and then we squirm, unsettled by the creepy, rape-like encounter. This programming trick is one of the few effective new ideas in "Reloaded" — and I wish you'd done more with it. What else could programmed food do to the unsuspecting in the Matrix? Develop this, and even the seemingly innocent sight of a granola bar on a coffee table would keep the audience edgy.
• Since we're on the subject of dramatic tension: despite its technical wizardry, the fight scene you call the "Burly Brawl," with all those Agent Smiths, is still lame, and for a simple reason. There's no point to it. The scene seems plopped down in the movie for no apparent reason, except as a special-effects interlude. It didn't have to be this way: the first Agent Smith arrives right after Neo's interview with the Oracle, once she's safely returned to that hidden corridor with her bodyguard. But if Agent Smith and company were to arrive before her escape, then Neo — and the Oracle's bodyguard — could fight to protect her from the malevolent carbon copies of Agent Smith. With this one added stroke, there would be something at risk, something to lose — and dramatic point to the mayhem.
• Which brings me to my next suggestion: make Neo vulnerable. Would it kill Neo to react just a teeny bit more as the Smith posse keeps replicating? I know we're talking Keanu Reeves here, but surely the man is capable of widening his eyes, dropping his jaw, wrinkling his brow as it becomes clear that there's no end in sight to all those SmithSmithSmithSmithSmithSmiths. Otherwise, all his impressive fighting skills appear to be nothing more than a round of calisthenics, a dutiful workout to limber him up before he flies away. In "Reloaded," Neo should have to struggle to control and focus his new skills, so the audience can worry about and root for him. And if Neo does make mistakes, then it would finally make sense that some of the Zionites doubt that Neo is indeed the One.
• Finally, when Neo meets the Architect, it shouldn't look as if they're having a rendezvous in the high-definition flat-screen department of Best Buy.
More important, the Architect spills all the metaphysical beans right at the end of the movie. If Neo had at least an inkling earlier of what would eventually be revealed, and if his growing suspicions fueled his actions, then — and I just hate to repeat myself — there would be more dramatic tension.
Remember: You once knew all of this. I'm certain of it — I saw the first "Matrix" movie. You know, that stylish flick you made in the previous century, before snack-food commercials imitated your special-effects moves, before the fashion industry borrowed your look for a season or two, before an academic industry pried into every nook and cranny of your film stock, before you started wasting your time developing video games, way before it was impossible to find a single person on the Warner Brothers lot who was willing to say, before it was too late, that your new movie stinks.
P.S. Is that why there are so many Smiths in the phone book?
A Memo to the Wachowskis From a Disappointed Fan
By PHILIP GRAHAM
WHEN my 16-year-old son and I left the multiplex on opening night of "The Matrix Reloaded," he shook his head in disappointment — the same slow, sad gesture he'd made four years ago as we left the theater after seeing "Star Wars: Episode 1 — The Phantom Menace." No, the Wachowski brothers hadn't perpetrated anything as egregious as Jar-Jar Binks. But they had still dropped the ball, big time, and all that anticipation for "The Matrix Reloaded" now seemed like a bad fever dream.
I know it's too late for my comments to be of any help. The movie's out, the third installment is already in the can. But what's really been bothering me — what I can't stop thinking about — is how much better the film would have been with just a few well-targeted tweaks. Wachowski brothers: if you ever get a chance to reload your own movie, perhaps these modest suggestions might assist you.
• Keep the nasty industrial grind music. It worked perfectly for the first movie. In "Reloaded," something techno and rude occasionally rears its ugly head, but it's too often drowned out by an orchestra and a cloying heavenly choir. When the score starts copping Igor Stravinsky and Philip Glass, the pretension just begs to be beaten with a sheaf of batons. Granted, the "Matrix" movies are designed to be pretentious, with all those dopey names like Morpheus and Trinity (and how about, for future films, Piety, or Eucharist, or Pompous?). But they should be a cool kind of pretentious, with more scary guitars and such in the background.
• Get us out of Zion, and fast. Cut the beginning by at least 20 minutes. No one cares about the petty rivalries in this underground outpost of humanity. Remember: gray-haired elders intoning wisdom equals narrative death. If we have to be in Zion, keep the sets small and constricted. Zion is just too unbelievably big. It doesn't seem vulnerable, doesn't enlist our sympathy for this put-upon rebel community.
As for that interminable group-grope of a dance, it's such a slow-moving target that I needn't say another word.
• Scare us, please. Let's see much more of those Machine-Spider-Thingies, as they bear down on Zion. Their ominous advance is the equivalent of that hoary old movie stand-by, the ticking clock. Keep reminding us, visually, that the nasty, tentacled gizmos are getting closer and closer. We shouldn't have to wait until nearly the end of the second hour for our first glimpse of them.
• Speaking of scare tactics, I have to admit that the Merovingian's programmed food is a good one. When he sends the chocolate cake to the blonde, we worry that perhaps something worse than weight gain is about to happen to her.
When she sighs with pleasure, we feel relieved — and then we squirm, unsettled by the creepy, rape-like encounter. This programming trick is one of the few effective new ideas in "Reloaded" — and I wish you'd done more with it. What else could programmed food do to the unsuspecting in the Matrix? Develop this, and even the seemingly innocent sight of a granola bar on a coffee table would keep the audience edgy.
• Since we're on the subject of dramatic tension: despite its technical wizardry, the fight scene you call the "Burly Brawl," with all those Agent Smiths, is still lame, and for a simple reason. There's no point to it. The scene seems plopped down in the movie for no apparent reason, except as a special-effects interlude. It didn't have to be this way: the first Agent Smith arrives right after Neo's interview with the Oracle, once she's safely returned to that hidden corridor with her bodyguard. But if Agent Smith and company were to arrive before her escape, then Neo — and the Oracle's bodyguard — could fight to protect her from the malevolent carbon copies of Agent Smith. With this one added stroke, there would be something at risk, something to lose — and dramatic point to the mayhem.
• Which brings me to my next suggestion: make Neo vulnerable. Would it kill Neo to react just a teeny bit more as the Smith posse keeps replicating? I know we're talking Keanu Reeves here, but surely the man is capable of widening his eyes, dropping his jaw, wrinkling his brow as it becomes clear that there's no end in sight to all those SmithSmithSmithSmithSmithSmiths. Otherwise, all his impressive fighting skills appear to be nothing more than a round of calisthenics, a dutiful workout to limber him up before he flies away. In "Reloaded," Neo should have to struggle to control and focus his new skills, so the audience can worry about and root for him. And if Neo does make mistakes, then it would finally make sense that some of the Zionites doubt that Neo is indeed the One.
• Finally, when Neo meets the Architect, it shouldn't look as if they're having a rendezvous in the high-definition flat-screen department of Best Buy.
More important, the Architect spills all the metaphysical beans right at the end of the movie. If Neo had at least an inkling earlier of what would eventually be revealed, and if his growing suspicions fueled his actions, then — and I just hate to repeat myself — there would be more dramatic tension.
Remember: You once knew all of this. I'm certain of it — I saw the first "Matrix" movie. You know, that stylish flick you made in the previous century, before snack-food commercials imitated your special-effects moves, before the fashion industry borrowed your look for a season or two, before an academic industry pried into every nook and cranny of your film stock, before you started wasting your time developing video games, way before it was impossible to find a single person on the Warner Brothers lot who was willing to say, before it was too late, that your new movie stinks.
P.S. Is that why there are so many Smiths in the phone book?
Last edited by Hiro11; 06-06-03 at 10:34 AM.
06-03-03, 02:10 PM
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Just a pre-emptive request (coming from someone who liked the movie quite a bit): Can we try not to have a repeat of the "Anybody who didn't like the movie just didn't understand it" that's been infecting this forum lately? 
As for the actual article, I agree with parts, disagree with others. I'll probably have more to say later, but Neo is vulnerable since
As for the actual article, I agree with parts, disagree with others. I'll probably have more to say later, but Neo is vulnerable since
Spoiler:
06-03-03, 06:55 PM
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Oh cmon. The whole point of the Burly Brawl was to show that Neo was uninvolved in the fight because he knew he could win...and then he started realizing he may not win it..and that is why he got out there.
I agree that some of the Zion stuff probably wasn't neccessary for THIS film - but it is neccessary for the whole series. The first movie took place almost exclusively in the Matrix - the second film was somewhat in matrix and I bet the third film will be a lot more in the real world - or whatever the world is becoming. So if you went from the first film with no Zion to the 3rd film with all Zion (or real world) then the series would make no sense
I admit the first movie was better. But I really enjoyed the second one and thought it added something to the Matrix mythology.
I agree that some of the Zion stuff probably wasn't neccessary for THIS film - but it is neccessary for the whole series. The first movie took place almost exclusively in the Matrix - the second film was somewhat in matrix and I bet the third film will be a lot more in the real world - or whatever the world is becoming. So if you went from the first film with no Zion to the 3rd film with all Zion (or real world) then the series would make no sense
I admit the first movie was better. But I really enjoyed the second one and thought it added something to the Matrix mythology.
06-03-03, 07:38 PM
#7
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I think he made some pretty good points, but if these are the worst criticisms he can come up with, the movie really wasn't all that bad, was it? He didn't rip it to pieces, merely made some suggestions that would have only helped the finished product without substantially changing it.
FWIW, I enjoyed most of MR, was bored by parts, and really can't figure out how this is supposed to be so much better than Star Wars, even the new ones.
FWIW, I enjoyed most of MR, was bored by parts, and really can't figure out how this is supposed to be so much better than Star Wars, even the new ones.
06-04-03, 12:00 AM
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Going into more detail than I did before...
Music: Interesting that NYT Man mentioned this so early, when I consider it pretty much a non-issue. I've seen Reloaded a few times and the original more than a few times, and whatever strengths and weaknesses I might find when comparing and contrasting the two, "The first had better tunes!" never enters the equation. Maybe now that it's been brought to my attention, I'll be on the lookout ("listenout"?) for a deliberate shift in style from part I to part II - towards "more 'pretentious' sound," apparently (?).
Zion: I agree the movie starts rather slow and that the rave scene was hardly crucial. Oh, and while Link is growing on me, I still have great difficulty forcing myself to care about his personal life. But the look and feel of the last human city are.......pretty much what I "wanted" them to be, based on what was (briefly) described in The Matrix by Tank. And I appreciate the inclusion of "petty rivalries," but this might be an even more subjective issue than anything else I'm discussing here. Which is saying quite a lot. Anyway, not too long ago I was defending a certain universally reviled action flick by admitting, "I guess I'm just a sucker for scenes where people who have the same general goal bang heads over how to achieve said goal." I dug how the Morpheus / Lock dialogue brought out that at least some influential "Zionists" think the prophecy is BS. Or maybe I just fondly recalled Baghdad Bob (Iraqi Information Minister) when Morpheus was dismissing "the greatest threat Zion has ever faced" with "We'll be completely victorious within a day, give or take."
Offscreen Action: I'm kinda "middle of the road" (Dan Rather / NYT joke) on this. It can be frustrating when I'm simply informed through conversation that "It wasn't a battle; it was a slaughter" instead of being shown what happened, so I can judge for myself. Particularly when I'm tempted to rationalize more sentinel screentime with, "They should have cut some running time from the beginning, and added more of the 'search-and-destroy' machines!" Still, we already know what the "squiddies" look like from the first movie, so it's not that much of a mystery what they're doing. Regardless, one of the most memorable scenes in the entire film directly involves the machines:
"Orgasm Cake": I found this even more unnecessary (but of course not as dragged-out) than the rave scene. Didn't the Merovingian hammer home the idea of "Cause. And effect. Causality. Action. And reaction." enough that I didn't need a visual Matrix code representation of female ejaculation?
Burly Brawl: I'd go into more detail, but this post is already *much* too long, so I'll just say that this is one of the greatest action scenes I've ever witnessed.
"Invincible" Neo?: What actor on the planet is more convincing than Keanu Reeves when conveying overwhelmed bewilderment? None, I say! "I just wish I knew what I'm supposed to do," along with his refusal (at the time, at least) to make the choice the Oracle tells him he must make, give Neo the aura of a reluctant messiah. True, when he's inside the Matrix he's almost God, but even he needs the help of others (like the Keymaker) to fulfill his destiny. When he "unplugged" after the Burly Brawl, he seemed out of breath. As for this line, "In 'Reloaded,' Neo should have to struggle to control and focus his new skills, so the audience can worry about and root for him," can I be the only one who noticed that Neo seems like he has to concentrate for a second before he takes off? Maybe that was only done because the filmmakers thought it would look cool, but I interpret it as "OK, I'm gonna REALLY break some rules now. Gotta psyche myself up!" Finally, I'm of the opinion that some (like Lock) doubt Neo's importance purely because they've never personally been inside the Matrix, and can't comprehend the magnitude of what The One can do. Question: Did anybody notice any holes or plugs on Lock? I thought he was a "naturally born" human, which would also make the "petty rivalry" between him and Morpheus more logical.
Architect Scene: The original movie may have done a more effective job explaining the nature of The Matrix and the world a bit at a time, whereas the Architect segment is so loaded with info (and so late in the film) that it tends to make me whine, "Hey, slow down! Where is all this coming from?" But I'm not with Mr. Disappointed Fan when he writes, "If Neo had at least an inkling earlier of what would eventually be revealed, and if his growing suspicions fueled his actions, then — and I just hate to repeat myself — there would be more dramatic tension." Let's see: Neo had already dreamed that Trinity was falling, the Oracle told him he'd have a tough decision to make, and Merovingian referred (twice!) to his "predecessors." So I reckon the Architect's lecture isn't quite as "random" or "out of left field" as some think.
My apologies for the excessive length of this post.
Music: Interesting that NYT Man mentioned this so early, when I consider it pretty much a non-issue. I've seen Reloaded a few times and the original more than a few times, and whatever strengths and weaknesses I might find when comparing and contrasting the two, "The first had better tunes!" never enters the equation. Maybe now that it's been brought to my attention, I'll be on the lookout ("listenout"?) for a deliberate shift in style from part I to part II - towards "more 'pretentious' sound," apparently (?).
Zion: I agree the movie starts rather slow and that the rave scene was hardly crucial. Oh, and while Link is growing on me, I still have great difficulty forcing myself to care about his personal life. But the look and feel of the last human city are.......pretty much what I "wanted" them to be, based on what was (briefly) described in The Matrix by Tank. And I appreciate the inclusion of "petty rivalries," but this might be an even more subjective issue than anything else I'm discussing here. Which is saying quite a lot. Anyway, not too long ago I was defending a certain universally reviled action flick by admitting, "I guess I'm just a sucker for scenes where people who have the same general goal bang heads over how to achieve said goal." I dug how the Morpheus / Lock dialogue brought out that at least some influential "Zionists" think the prophecy is BS. Or maybe I just fondly recalled Baghdad Bob (Iraqi Information Minister) when Morpheus was dismissing "the greatest threat Zion has ever faced" with "We'll be completely victorious within a day, give or take."
Offscreen Action: I'm kinda "middle of the road" (Dan Rather / NYT joke) on this. It can be frustrating when I'm simply informed through conversation that "It wasn't a battle; it was a slaughter" instead of being shown what happened, so I can judge for myself. Particularly when I'm tempted to rationalize more sentinel screentime with, "They should have cut some running time from the beginning, and added more of the 'search-and-destroy' machines!" Still, we already know what the "squiddies" look like from the first movie, so it's not that much of a mystery what they're doing. Regardless, one of the most memorable scenes in the entire film directly involves the machines:
Spoiler:
"Orgasm Cake": I found this even more unnecessary (but of course not as dragged-out) than the rave scene. Didn't the Merovingian hammer home the idea of "Cause. And effect. Causality. Action. And reaction." enough that I didn't need a visual Matrix code representation of female ejaculation?
Burly Brawl: I'd go into more detail, but this post is already *much* too long, so I'll just say that this is one of the greatest action scenes I've ever witnessed.
"Invincible" Neo?: What actor on the planet is more convincing than Keanu Reeves when conveying overwhelmed bewilderment? None, I say! "I just wish I knew what I'm supposed to do," along with his refusal (at the time, at least) to make the choice the Oracle tells him he must make, give Neo the aura of a reluctant messiah. True, when he's inside the Matrix he's almost God, but even he needs the help of others (like the Keymaker) to fulfill his destiny. When he "unplugged" after the Burly Brawl, he seemed out of breath. As for this line, "In 'Reloaded,' Neo should have to struggle to control and focus his new skills, so the audience can worry about and root for him," can I be the only one who noticed that Neo seems like he has to concentrate for a second before he takes off? Maybe that was only done because the filmmakers thought it would look cool, but I interpret it as "OK, I'm gonna REALLY break some rules now. Gotta psyche myself up!" Finally, I'm of the opinion that some (like Lock) doubt Neo's importance purely because they've never personally been inside the Matrix, and can't comprehend the magnitude of what The One can do. Question: Did anybody notice any holes or plugs on Lock? I thought he was a "naturally born" human, which would also make the "petty rivalry" between him and Morpheus more logical.
Architect Scene: The original movie may have done a more effective job explaining the nature of The Matrix and the world a bit at a time, whereas the Architect segment is so loaded with info (and so late in the film) that it tends to make me whine, "Hey, slow down! Where is all this coming from?" But I'm not with Mr. Disappointed Fan when he writes, "If Neo had at least an inkling earlier of what would eventually be revealed, and if his growing suspicions fueled his actions, then — and I just hate to repeat myself — there would be more dramatic tension." Let's see: Neo had already dreamed that Trinity was falling, the Oracle told him he'd have a tough decision to make, and Merovingian referred (twice!) to his "predecessors." So I reckon the Architect's lecture isn't quite as "random" or "out of left field" as some think.
My apologies for the excessive length of this post.
06-04-03, 11:26 AM
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I think it's sad (and a commentary on the times) that we assume a movie has to be EXACTLY what WE PERSONALLY want for each and every second. ("this movie sucks cause I didn't like 10 minutes of it", gimme a break 
) And that we think it's worth it to analyze TMR to death and make it so important.
Anyhoo, off the soapbox....
Obviously the beginning of the movie was slow, but after seeing it a 2nd time I realized the whole thing is slow. The review above is correct about making the burly brawl fit in better, poor writing or cutting there, IMO. But this is the 2nd movie of a trilogy. And it's a trilogy that almost wasn't. So it appears to me that Reloaded is trying to tell the whole story of this trilogy in one flick and making some of it fit between a movie that stood by itself and the necessity of managing to make 2 more movies that agree. (you know, to not be Star Wars) It clarifies some stuff from #1, and leaves PLENTY open for #3 to explain, but I think it's put everything out there. As Neo is repeatedly told, understanding is the key, and none of us CAN understand everything yet. This whole movie is a segue, no more, no less. Hopefully there will be more action (that is more obviously relevant) in Revolutions, this series has great potential for action.
I'd say this is clearly a trilogy that will need to be watched all at once, popping in Reloaded cold 4 years from now will probably never happen.
As for invincibility, my favorite instant of the whole movie is the irony of a bunch of guys (who are getting their asses kicked) almost cheering over a dozen drops of blood from Neo's hand. I mean, did they notice that he stopped an axeblade with his bare hand? Even the "immortal" werewolf or ghost types among them can't do that.
) And that we think it's worth it to analyze TMR to death and make it so important.Anyhoo, off the soapbox....
Obviously the beginning of the movie was slow, but after seeing it a 2nd time I realized the whole thing is slow. The review above is correct about making the burly brawl fit in better, poor writing or cutting there, IMO. But this is the 2nd movie of a trilogy. And it's a trilogy that almost wasn't. So it appears to me that Reloaded is trying to tell the whole story of this trilogy in one flick and making some of it fit between a movie that stood by itself and the necessity of managing to make 2 more movies that agree. (you know, to not be Star Wars) It clarifies some stuff from #1, and leaves PLENTY open for #3 to explain, but I think it's put everything out there. As Neo is repeatedly told, understanding is the key, and none of us CAN understand everything yet. This whole movie is a segue, no more, no less. Hopefully there will be more action (that is more obviously relevant) in Revolutions, this series has great potential for action.
I'd say this is clearly a trilogy that will need to be watched all at once, popping in Reloaded cold 4 years from now will probably never happen.
As for invincibility, my favorite instant of the whole movie is the irony of a bunch of guys (who are getting their asses kicked) almost cheering over a dozen drops of blood from Neo's hand. I mean, did they notice that he stopped an axeblade with his bare hand? Even the "immortal" werewolf or ghost types among them can't do that.
06-04-03, 11:28 AM
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And you know what? The Matrix was slow, too. Even slower than this one. I think people forget that or don't realize it or something. Everyone thought the FX were cool, so they seem to think it was a serious action flick. And therefore #s 2 and 3 should be also. Not.
Last edited by Spiky; 06-04-03 at 11:38 AM.
06-04-03, 11:34 AM
#11
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Originally posted by inVectiVe
Didn't the Merovingian hammer home the idea of "Cause. And effect. Causality. Action. And reaction." enough that I didn't need a visual Matrix code representation of female ejaculation
Didn't the Merovingian hammer home the idea of "Cause. And effect. Causality. Action. And reaction." enough that I didn't need a visual Matrix code representation of female ejaculation
06-04-03, 11:42 AM
#12
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Originally posted by Spiky
And you know what? The Matrix was slow, too. Even slower than this one. I think people forget that or don't realize it or something. Everyone thought the SFX were cool, so they seem to think it was a serious action flick. And therefore #s 2 and 3 should be also. Not.
And you know what? The Matrix was slow, too. Even slower than this one. I think people forget that or don't realize it or something. Everyone thought the SFX were cool, so they seem to think it was a serious action flick. And therefore #s 2 and 3 should be also. Not.
06-04-03, 11:44 AM
#13
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What happened was a lot of people bought The Matrix on DVD, and just re-played chapters 32 and onward while showing off their DVD/home theater system. But, the first 90 minutes of The Matrix is indeed slow, but naturally so (after the nifty opening sequence with Trinity).
06-04-03, 12:12 PM
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pixyboi,
That's a good point. Somehow they just didn't get the urgency into this flick. Even though intellectually it is obvious, you don't feel it.
Actually, I've always wondered about Morpheus' fight with Smith in #1. It always seemed way too short, I would've thought Morpheus could've held his own for at least a couple more minutes. I think the fight on the semi was far more realistic according to the dialog and Morpheus' ability shown when training Neo. Maybe it's because the agent didn't have anything to knock him into, like a ceramic tile wall. I guess I'd assume Morpheus could've fought more like Neo's first agent fight in the subway.
Same thing with the first fight scene in Reloaded, the 3 agents gotted knocked out pretty fast against Neo. They ought to have lasted longer.
I wouldn't say Trinity handled agents with ease. Her fight seemed long, but that's because it was interspersed with Neo's discussion with the Architecht. Basically, the agent and Trinity traded blows for about 30 seconds (with the agent clearly winning), then he threw her through a wall and, seeing a 2nd agent show up, she jumped out the window and got killed. Not exactly Neo-esque.
That's a good point. Somehow they just didn't get the urgency into this flick. Even though intellectually it is obvious, you don't feel it.
Actually, I've always wondered about Morpheus' fight with Smith in #1. It always seemed way too short, I would've thought Morpheus could've held his own for at least a couple more minutes. I think the fight on the semi was far more realistic according to the dialog and Morpheus' ability shown when training Neo. Maybe it's because the agent didn't have anything to knock him into, like a ceramic tile wall. I guess I'd assume Morpheus could've fought more like Neo's first agent fight in the subway.
Same thing with the first fight scene in Reloaded, the 3 agents gotted knocked out pretty fast against Neo. They ought to have lasted longer.
I wouldn't say Trinity handled agents with ease. Her fight seemed long, but that's because it was interspersed with Neo's discussion with the Architecht. Basically, the agent and Trinity traded blows for about 30 seconds (with the agent clearly winning), then he threw her through a wall and, seeing a 2nd agent show up, she jumped out the window and got killed. Not exactly Neo-esque.
Last edited by Spiky; 06-04-03 at 12:14 PM.
06-04-03, 02:48 PM
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How does Morpheus win or even come close to winnning his fight with the Agent? He was getting his butt kicked just like the first one. He got a few chops in, but was kicked off the trailer like 3 times and would have died pretty quickly if Niobe hadn't been there.
06-04-03, 04:59 PM
#16
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Remember the advice about what to do when you see an agent:
RUN!!!!
That these characters tried beyond hope to stand their ground against the upgraded agents in Reloaded speaks volume in their "Matrix" character development. But not many detractors seem to grasp that detail.
Oh well...
RUN!!!!
That these characters tried beyond hope to stand their ground against the upgraded agents in Reloaded speaks volume in their "Matrix" character development. But not many detractors seem to grasp that detail.
Oh well...
06-04-03, 10:48 PM
#17
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pixyboi doesn't like "Orgasm Cake" either:
This is another reason why I think this movies deep-at-heart audience is tweens, you'd have to be 13-15 to think that was cool, any older and you just roll your eyes at it. (Also applies to the whole rave scene).
This is another reason why I think this movies deep-at-heart audience is tweens, you'd have to be 13-15 to think that was cool, any older and you just roll your eyes at it. (Also applies to the whole rave scene).
But while I felt the cake and the rave were not needed, I must take issue with the idea that they signal this movie is aiming for a younger demo than the original. I pointed out in another thread plenty of flaws I found in the first Matrix movie, as well, yet even a line like "It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy. Because Kansas.....is goin' bye-bye!" won't kill a movie if I find enough other "stuff" to enjoy about it.
So it goes with Reloaded. Its flaws are mildly annoying, and rather puzzling in a "Why even bother to include that?!" way, but I can't concur with the sentiment that this movie is significantly weaker than part I. Both have an intriguing premise playing out in an interesting manner, with some clunky dialogue / dead spots - but also some arresting visuals and kick-ass action.
06-05-03, 12:35 AM
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That these characters tried beyond hope to stand their ground against the upgraded agents in Reloaded speaks volume in their "Matrix" character development. But not many detractors seem to grasp that detail.
Trinity ran from the agents when she saw them in the elevator.
06-05-03, 03:55 AM
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Couple things to add...
1) The guy has an opinion. While I agree with most of it, and some I don't, it's his call, his take on the movie. It was a good read.
2) I think most of us can agree that 10-15 minutes of Zion could've been cut out. The rave scene, the worthless dialogue between Counselor Whoever and Commander What's-His-Face. It's trite, stale and basically "filler". I swear when I saw it for the 2nd and 3rd time I was cringing during some of the Zion scenes.
3) Where were the guns? Sorry if this has been brought up in other topics, but honestly, where the hell were the guns? Something that made the first film so amazing....oh and that music needs to be brought back too.
4) Finally, my favorite quote comes from EW reviewing the movie:
1) The guy has an opinion. While I agree with most of it, and some I don't, it's his call, his take on the movie. It was a good read.
2) I think most of us can agree that 10-15 minutes of Zion could've been cut out. The rave scene, the worthless dialogue between Counselor Whoever and Commander What's-His-Face. It's trite, stale and basically "filler". I swear when I saw it for the 2nd and 3rd time I was cringing during some of the Zion scenes.
3) Where were the guns? Sorry if this has been brought up in other topics, but honestly, where the hell were the guns? Something that made the first film so amazing....oh and that music needs to be brought back too.
4) Finally, my favorite quote comes from EW reviewing the movie:
[Zion] may be the last refuge of freedom on Earth, but it's not a fun place to visit, especially when the infighting among the rebel leaders sounds as if it were scripted by George Lucas in his tone-deaf, digital-bunker mode
06-05-03, 09:32 AM
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Alright, here's my biggest complaint.
In the first 'Matrix', Morpheous and Trinity tell Neo that if he ever encounters an Agent to run and that is what they do durin' the first movie. They run from the Agents , like they're impossible to defeat. In this one, Neo notes that the new Agents have received an upgrade first thing...Yet, later on in the movie, both Trinity and Morpheous go head to head with Agents and Morpheous even wins against one. It makes no sense to me. I was under the impression that only 'The One' should go toe to toe with the Agents.
Serious plot hole, in my opinion.
In the first 'Matrix', Morpheous and Trinity tell Neo that if he ever encounters an Agent to run and that is what they do durin' the first movie. They run from the Agents , like they're impossible to defeat. In this one, Neo notes that the new Agents have received an upgrade first thing...Yet, later on in the movie, both Trinity and Morpheous go head to head with Agents and Morpheous even wins against one. It makes no sense to me. I was under the impression that only 'The One' should go toe to toe with the Agents.
Serious plot hole, in my opinion.
06-05-03, 09:45 AM
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How about the fact that in the first Matrix Morpheus fights Agent Smith in order to protect Neo? He was doing the same with the keymaker. He was willing to die/be captured to find a way to protect the keymaker, especially since he knew Niobe and Ghost were around to perhaps finish the job and take the keymaker.
Where does Morpheus win against an agent? He would have died if Neo hadn't flown in and saved them. The only reason Morpheus wasn't killed by the agent in the car is that both him and the Twin were fighting against him, and Trinity slammed on the breaks thus invoking the laws of the "matrix" - inertia and gravity. And yes I know that Agents can disregard the laws of gravity if they it was coming (like bullets or jumping) but a sudden unexpected slam on the brakes was too quick for agent to react and he was thrown.
Trinity in Reloaded sees the Agent puts a few defensive moves on and tries to escape. She does run and she would/did die because of her meeting if it wasn't for NEO AGAIN.
How is that a plot hole?
Where does Morpheus win against an agent? He would have died if Neo hadn't flown in and saved them. The only reason Morpheus wasn't killed by the agent in the car is that both him and the Twin were fighting against him, and Trinity slammed on the breaks thus invoking the laws of the "matrix" - inertia and gravity. And yes I know that Agents can disregard the laws of gravity if they it was coming (like bullets or jumping) but a sudden unexpected slam on the brakes was too quick for agent to react and he was thrown.
Trinity in Reloaded sees the Agent puts a few defensive moves on and tries to escape. She does run and she would/did die because of her meeting if it wasn't for NEO AGAIN.
How is that a plot hole?
06-05-03, 10:06 AM
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I agree that it isn't a plot hole. I view it as they are not in a situation where running would do them any good. They are in a do or die situation. They can't come back tomorrow and finish the job, there is no alternative. Heck thats why they ended up on the freeway in the first place, they were running, to the only place they could.
06-05-03, 10:13 AM
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That, and Morpheus would've died earlier if Niobe wasn't there waiting to help. Keep in mind also that he had a katana. Even an agent needs to be a bit careful in that situation, as the cut he received shows. BTW, that slice would've taken out just about anybody and all the agent got was a cut.
I really wonder what movie some of you watched. Trinity was beat to hell AND DID DIE and Morpheus not far off.
What I missed was ANYBODY breaking some sunglasses. That was a classic Matrix thing. Smith gets mad when you break his shades, but dozens of Smiths and NO breakage. Sad. I sorta expected a reversal with Smiths breaking Neo's shades and him deciding that was time to take off. They matched it up with the subway scene of Neo smashing Smith to the ceiling and escaping, but a shades shot would have improved it.
BTW, Cypher told Neo to run. Morpheus told him everybody who has fought an agent has died, but he (Neo) would change that.
I really wonder what movie some of you watched. Trinity was beat to hell AND DID DIE and Morpheus not far off.
What I missed was ANYBODY breaking some sunglasses. That was a classic Matrix thing. Smith gets mad when you break his shades, but dozens of Smiths and NO breakage. Sad. I sorta expected a reversal with Smiths breaking Neo's shades and him deciding that was time to take off. They matched it up with the subway scene of Neo smashing Smith to the ceiling and escaping, but a shades shot would have improved it.
BTW, Cypher told Neo to run. Morpheus told him everybody who has fought an agent has died, but he (Neo) would change that.
06-05-03, 10:23 AM
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And the guns? I'm sorry, but did you watch The Matrix Reloaded or something else?
Trinity and the agents shot each other, she had twin automatics. The scene was replayed 3 times.
Neo doesn't need them. And those fighting against him shouldn't even bother.
Morpheus and the agent both kicked away each others hand guns on top of the truck, once again bringing the fight to hand-to-hand combat, just like every other fight in these 2 movies.
The Twins shot the Caddy to death on the freeway.
Morpheus emptied his pistol at point blank range in the car, totally missing the agent, of course.
Shall we count the new bomb weapon employed by the Sentinels?
The only time in the Matrix there were serious guns was an actual attack on a military building. Every other time they were in the matrix they carried pistols only. I'd guess you are just hung up on guns, you better stay far from my house.
Trinity and the agents shot each other, she had twin automatics. The scene was replayed 3 times.
Neo doesn't need them. And those fighting against him shouldn't even bother.
Morpheus and the agent both kicked away each others hand guns on top of the truck, once again bringing the fight to hand-to-hand combat, just like every other fight in these 2 movies.
The Twins shot the Caddy to death on the freeway.
Morpheus emptied his pistol at point blank range in the car, totally missing the agent, of course.
Shall we count the new bomb weapon employed by the Sentinels?
The only time in the Matrix there were serious guns was an actual attack on a military building. Every other time they were in the matrix they carried pistols only. I'd guess you are just hung up on guns, you better stay far from my house.