I always feel a bit silly debating science fiction, but here we go:

In Terminator, some reference is made to the fact that so much of recent human history was lost that the machines aren't quite sure which Sarah Conner is the correct one. That's why the first terminator killed all of the Sarah Conners. Knowing who the grandmother is would presumably be impossible for the machines.

Also, the machines wouldn't really have any way of knowing why the first attempt failed. For all they knew, the first terminator never even found her. It would be much easier to find a John Conner whose mother is named Sarah.

Who knows why a terminator is sent back in the third movie. The trailer that I've seen actually didn't look too bad, but I'm not getting my hopes up for T3. I'll go see it, though, and I do hope that I'm pleasantly surprised.

I like the different dimensions/time lines thing... less headaches :)

I think it's less of a paradox than you think. The "jinn" concept I described earlier is a paradox, the concept of going back in time to kill your grandmother is a paradox. John Connor fathering himself would be a paradox. John Connor electing not to send Reese back in time would be a paradox. However, sending someone back in time to be his father would not.

If you really want to say it couldn't be started, think of it this way. In the original time line, Reese is sent back through some other course of events -- probably not even terminator related. He fathers a child with a woman that he meets. In the new, altered time line, John Connor is born, and Skynet rises, and he sends his friend Reese back in time to protect him from the terminator. Reese has sex with Sarah -- again -- fathering John Connor. This further alters the timeline, and so on an so forth. However, sending Reese back to be his father doesn't violate any physical laws or logic laws, and thus, the universal time line is stable.

The second thing is a bit more of a paradox, but the terminator arm and chip are not. Skynet built those things, not Cyberdyne systems. But, the problem is, as you say, the sent-back Terminator causing the eventual rise of the machines. However, if we look at it from the above standpoint, the time line is stable, and could have been precipitated by something else.

Time travel involves a lot of problems, but it's not impossible according to the laws of physics. There are some who say that it can't be done only because it destabilizes the time line so drastically. So, basically, when someone invents a time machine, time destabilizes because using the time machine constantly changes it. The only way for it to become stable again is for the machine to never have been invented at all. When the inevitable changes occur, time stabilizes again, the machine is never invented, and we never know because the time changes happen without us realizing it.

Ok, so why not bypass the whole Sarah Conner thing and just send 5 or 6 various model Terminators back to roman times. Have them set up shop, building a technologicaly advanced stronghold and roll out the HK's to take on Ceaser. The whole conquest of the planet in half an hour and no pesky human resistant to deal with.

Better yet, just have them go back and kill Adam and Eve. "Your modesty is no match for my rocket launcher!"

T3: The Terminator goes after John Connor's Great Grandfather who happens to live in Tombstone, AZ. Now that I'd pay to see.

Supposedly, all future technology was destroyed in T2 when Arnold went in the lava...

BUT...

He tore off a robotic arm in that factory machine and I don't think it was totally crushed. It's still sitting there, isn't it?



Is this in T3? Don't know. Just something I've thought about for 12 years.

http://ibelgique.ifrance.com/cinedes...rslefutur5.jpg
Marty! The Terminator here in 1885 has 1.21 jiggawatts!

Thank you :lol:

Excellent pic GuessWho - had me laughing off my chair.

For those of you that have commented on my original post - thanks again.

I can see the thinking behind the multiple universes - but, as a single time line believer - I'm still caught in the web of paradox.

Now this would work, but it wouldn't make for a great movie. Well, I'd enjoy it, but it would only be about five minutes long.

Actually, from the machines' standpoint, this would be a bad idea, since wiping out all humans would mean that there would be no one around to eventually create the machines.

Maybe Terminator 4 will involve the machines sending Arnold back to kill Adam and Eve, realizing the foolishness of his actions and spending the next few million years attempting to rebuild the machine's society.

Or maybe it'll just have TWO hot babe terminators.

I assumed that every "model" of Terminator looked different....this explains why the T-1000 doesnt look like a T-800. The T-600 looked different than a T-500 and so on and so on. (I remember Reese saying that early Terminators had latex skin and were easy to detect, so it shows that the Terminators have been perfected over time).

Now this is pure speculation...but its quite possible that Terminators are given "skin" only when they go on infiltration missions...we did see some endoskeletons running around with no skin so its possible that for standard infantry missions they dont need to look human. This might explain why Kyle doesnt know what one looks like, he's never seen one disguised as human or never ran across a T-800 model.

Explain it all you want, but I think that was a plot point that was changed to fit the sequels. I would imagine that all terminators look at least superficially different -- because their job is to infiltrate human encampments.

If they all look the same, then as soon as you see one, you know what the 'current model' looks like, and you can identify him from 100 yards. There would be nothing about latex skin being easy to detect, you'd know the look of the latex skin models. Of course, if every latex skinned robot looked different, you'd learn to identify terminators by the latex skin.

Even if you accept the absurd notion that all terminators of a given class look exactly the same, surely Reese would have seen a few T-800's in various stages of development in the ruined robot stronghold from which he traveled back in time?

There's a lot of plot points changed to make the sequels, both T1 and T2 had definate endings. In T1, Reese mentions that they had won, but a single terminator managed to make it to the time portal. So, if that's the case, where did Skynet find the time to make two new models of terminators -- the T-900 (unseen) and the T-1000? Where was the extra time machine? After the second movie, how did the robots even get invented?

I just recently rewatched T2, and this plot point really bugged me. They made such a big deal about having to destroy the Terminator.....and threw the arm and chip from the first one in too....but didn't go back to that sprocket mechanism and get the arm he tore off in T2.

Plot oversight?

or just really dumb characters?

or ridiculous segue for T3?

Feh. The time-travel paradoxes in The Terminator are nothing.

I've read "All You Zombies" by Robert Heinlein.

Now that was a time-travel paradox!

I havent viewed T1 for awhile, but did Reese say they had completely whooped the machines or was he just talking about beating them in a certain area?


I dont think the machines would simply have ONE place where all thier machines get made and such...but i havent viewed the movies for awhile so i might be forgetting some things.

I watched Terminator just the other night. The relevant conversation goes something like this:
That leads me to believe that the war was over, prompting a last minute "do or die" decision by Skynet. Skynet probably wouldn't send the Terminator back if it could avoid it, simply because sending it back (assuming no a priori knowledge of the found, crushed Terminator) places Skynet's own future at risk. Once you send something back into the past, it may change things in such a way that it wipes out your existance entirely.

Then how did they send the T1000?

Good point. Like I said earlier, plot points were changed to allow the making of Terminator 2. I would have to assume that things were changed again to make T3.

The plot points changed for the first sequel weren't huge, but they were there.

Well, everybody always assumed this might be a way to sneak a sequel in. But really if you look at, Skynet couldn't really be born from just a remnant arm - it was the microchip that was the key inunlocking the technology. The arm was really just a strong piece of metal.

As for only sending one termniator back, yes this was a plot point that was somewhat changed for the T2. My biggest problem had to do with the time travel sending only living material back, but an endoskeleton was allowed to go back? And in T2, the T-1000 really had no living skin in him..just pure metal.

So you can see there are little nit-picky points all over

Its possible that the whole "war" isnt over and maybe that the resistance had scored a huge hit that turned the tide of the war in thier favor.

Its quite possible that the machines lack the intellect to comprehend the effects of sending someone (or something) into the past. To them it might just be a simple mission to kill thier enemy's leader before he can win.

I think the fact that they did send a Terminator into the past shows that the machines had just enough info to create a time machine but not enough to understand the long term (possible) effects on the thier current time.



I always thought that the arm was irrellivent because its possible to create a working skeleton arm out of metal.

Quote:

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As for only sending one termniator back, yes this was a plot point that was somewhat changed for the T2. My biggest problem had to do with the time travel sending only living material back, but an endoskeleton was allowed to go back? And in T2, the T-1000 really had no living skin in him..just pure metal.

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Maybe Reese and the rest of the resistance assumed that it could only send living material back. I mean, why would machines build a time machine that they themselves cant use?

Back to the time travel paradox, the building of the terminators and the birth of John Conner are all things that were eventually going to happen but because of the terminators sending the T-800 back in time just hastened the whole process. Sorta like fate which is talked about in T-2.

Okay, here's a question. Why the war? Why didn't the machines just invent a plague and unleash it on humanity?

Because a plague won't kill 100% of the people.

A war can.

the book for T2 explained how they were able to send another group back but it's been years since I read it. I think it simply came down to them not blowing up the base as soon as Kyle thought
and the T-800 can go back because as kyle siad, it's covered in skin
doesn't explain the T-1000 though
and in the deleted scenes in T1