Re: The Rave Scene
 

I got that contrast too, but my problem wasn't the existence of the scene but rather the length of the scene. Really dragged on too long for my tastes.

Re: Re: Re: Post your inside jokes, references, plot holes & nitpicks here.
 

Whew, I'm glad that I'm not the only one to keep refering to the key maker as the key master. I keep catching myself doing it, and I crack up almost every time. Rick Moranis should have been in this movie.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Post your inside jokes, references, plot holes & nitpicks here.
 

LOL, whoops... yes, I'm a diehard Ghostbusters fan, and couldn't help but make this slip. :)

"Are you the keymaster?"

I understand that it is the message from Oracle, I just don't understand how holding an item in the matrix gets it to appear in the "Real World"....Can an object in the Matrix be Downloaded into the "Real World".

Bruce

The truth is, we haven't really seen the "real world" yet. ;)

Re: The Rave Scene
 

I'm not following your use of "logos." Can you elaborate?

About the item getting from the Matrix to the real world, I don't think it would actually physically appear. I think it is like a file attachment to an e-mail; as his consciousness is downloaded back into his body, the item and the information it contained would be downloaded into their computer.


And I think about logos, Cheapbastid is referring to the Greek ideal of logos, or logical truth:

"The etymology of the logos, the Greek word behind "reason" and "logic," shows that the idea of synthesis is at the origin of these words. The Greek logos is the verbal noun of lego, which, if we follow one root leg means "to gather," "to collect," "to pick up," "to put together," and later "to speak or say." We already have the basic ideas of any rational endeavor. We begin by collecting individual facts and thoughts and put them together in an orderly way and usually say something about what we have created."

I noticed something after watching it through the second time today. When that French Guy was talking to Neo, he kept saying "predecessors", talking about the versions before. I didn't catch that until today.

Thanks for the response. Perhaps I’m just reading more in CB’s comment than he intended. I did my original graduate work in classical languages and ancient history. Logos is one of those words with a wide range of meanings that depends both on the context and the period; e.g. pre-Sorcratic, Sophist, Christian, etc. But none of the definitions w/ which I am familiar seemed to fit. BTW: it’s true that Logos is the stem from which we derive the word “logic”, but it does not really have that meaning in Greek; although it’s sometimes translated as “rational.” And maybe that’s all he meant.

315 and 23 references?
 

Anyone have any insights into the 315 and 23 references?

When the Keymaker said that the door could only be open for 315 seconds it just seemed kinda odd. I’ve given it some thought and haven’t come up w/ anything.

I’m assuming that 23 is a nod to Isaiah, the 23rd book of the Bible, which includes several references to Zion. E.g. from chapter 1: And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city. Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. The 16 females and 7 males could refer to chapters. From Ch 7: And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it. From Ch 16: Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.


Anyone have any other ideas?

Edited to add some of the potentially relevant quotes.

Got to thinking about some of the names used in the movie, and their religious and mythical meanings. I knew some, but looked a few more up:

Neo - anagram for One, also means "new".

Trinity - Christian term for the three parts of God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Notice that both Neo and Trinity have now both died, with Trinity saving Neo with her love, and Neo resurrecting Trinity as well out of his love.

Morpheus - Greek God of Dreams. Pretty clear how that is significant.

Merovingian - (French guy holding the Keymaker) The Merovingian Dynasty was a series of Franken kings that rose after the fall of the Roman Empire. There is a whole cult thing going on about them, as some feel they will have an heir come to power again one day. This heir will have a three sided birth mark, symbolic of the Trinity. Strangely, they did not believe in the resurrection. It is also said they trace their lineage through Atlantis and to fallen angels from heaven.

Persphone - (Merovingian's wife/gf of the dress you can see through enough to know how she shaves) - Wife of Hades in Greek mythology, who was kidnapped from her mother Demeter and taken to the underworld. An agreement was reached between Hades and Demeter that she would live half the year in the underworld, and have in the world. When she was in the world Demeter made the world bloom as summer, when she was in the underworld, the world would fall into winter.

Seraph - (Oracle's bodyguard guy who Neo saw so brightly in Matrix code) This is a word for angel, like the Seraphim mentioned several times in the Bible. How is an angel working for the Oracle significant in the scheme of things, or is this just a coincidence?

Niobe - (Morpheus's Ex, ship captain) Another Greek mythology figure who thought her seven sons and seven daughters were so good, that they made her as good as a godess. Her pride was her downfall, and Apollo killed all her sons and daughters, and husband.

Nebuchadnezzar - (Morpheus's ship) Biblical King Nebuchadnezzar was king of Babylon, who built most of the city. God allowed him to conquer Judah. He had problems with dreams he couldn't understand on at least two occasions, and the prophet Daniel interpreted those dreams for him. He also was the one who threw Shadrack, Meshack, and Abednego into a furnace to die when they wouldn't worship his statue, but they survived with the help of a fourth mystery figure (God, or angel).

Bane - (guy that Smith took over in Neo's dream as he was getting ready to answer the phone, and the guy with the knife that was going to go after Neo in Zion until the kid interupted him) Bane means either poison or a cause of ruin. I guess that is just a tip off this guy isn't good

I guess most interesting to me are the Nebuchadnezzar/Morpheus dreams connections. The "God of Dreams" has a ship named for a king who had trouble with dreams, and needed the guidance of a prophet.

Not sure if any of this has any significance, but I just found it interesting once I started looking up some of the names I didn't know after thinking through some I did.

BTW, "Logos" also happens to be the name of Niobe's ship!

Oops, Numanoid, you already referenced a couple of the things I did. BTW, Orpheus is the son of Morpheus I think. Guess I should have read the whole thread before posting :)

Morpheus as the father of Orpheus is a modern invention. There's no definitive answer in Roman or Greek mythology, although most likely Orpheus is the son of Apollo and Calliope.

Another one that is pretty obvious, but I missed it in my list. Zion, of course, is the name for the Mount of the Temple in Jerusalem, but is also the name for Jerusalem itself. If you think the history of Jerusalem, the historical sacred homeland city for the Jews and Chrisitians, it has been taken over and destroyed (including the temple) on several occasions (including take over by Nebuchadnezzar). Mirrors the 6 times it has fallen in the Matrix.

I don't know if anybody has posted this yet, but I just saw this story about the hacking that Trinity did, including nmap :)

Gee, it was almost as if the stunt director was the same person! I don't think one person can pay homage to himself... ;-)

Regarding Morpheus as father of Orpheus, I'm pretty sure that such a theory was only used by Neil Gaiman in his Sandman series (go out and read it NOW if you haven't, yet.) I've taken two Greek mythology classes now and have seen no traditional links between the two figures other than the fact that their names are separated only by the presence of the letter "M."


Also -- just saw Reloaded for the second time tonight and noticed something new. When Neo & his clique walk inside the Merovingian's restaurant, there is a "Matrix Buzz" sound effect and the camera shifts to the left, highlighting (for a SPLIT second) some character that is walking away, perhaps from a conversation with the Merovingian. I sort of noticed this the first time I saw the film, but forgot about it by the time I viewed it tonight. When I realized that the scene might be significant, it had already passed me by. If anyone goes for a second showing anytime soon, can you tell if there's any significance to this brief shot?

Another possibly vital line I noticed the second time through -- the Council member telling Neo something along the lines of

"That means you're still human"

In regard to his having trouble sleeping. Perhaps he's referring to Neo's messianic status among citizens of Zion, but looking at the Smith-Neo Man-Machine dynamic discussed in this part of the forum, it might take on new meaning in the third film.

Well, the mystery has been solved, thanks to the Enter The Matrix game, which has over an hour of additional film footage. In the game, it is revealed (through actual movie footage) that the envelope contains the final message of the Osiris, another human ship. It basically shows the discovery of the army of sentinels headed for Zion, which then sets into motion the recall of the fleet to Zion, the war preparations and the events of Matrix: Reloaded.

Apparently, the Wachowski brothers have integrated the game and the movie so that a true understanding of the film is only possible after playing the game as well. Marketing geniuses, or greedy bastards? You make the call.

Actually, it is also made clear from watching 'Last Flight of the Osiris', the Animatrix bit before Dreamcatcher

Reportedly, you can see clips of other Keanu Reeve's movies (such as Speed) as part of Neo's life on the Architect's monitors.

Isn't it
000/First
001/Second
010/Third
011/Fourth
100/Fifth
101/Sixth

Nope.

000 is zero
001 is one
010 is two

and so forth....

000=zero, but 000 is the first number in binary...

Create a binary matrix to store four values (a, b, c, and d).

You'll end up with register 000 holding a, register 001 holding b, register 010 holding c, and register 011 holding d. Four values but the highest register number is 3. So depending on how it is viewed you are both correct

23 humans? 23 chromosomes!
 

23 pairs of chromosomes are found in the nucleus of every cell. I think the refrence to 23 humans pertains to this.

Re: 315 and 23 references?
 

Was it 315? Or was it 314?



Larry W. supposedly made the role just for him. He was impressed so much by his works that he did that. Quite a compliment I must say. :)

23 is generally believed to be a reference to the Biblical book of Isaiah (the 23rd book of the Old Testament), which talks a lot about Zion, as well as Nebuchadnezzar.

I also think it was 314, which could be a reference to Pi...a mathematical anomaly.

OK....Matrix 2 overall a good film great fighting, SFX is also...etc etc. A must see. BUT...here is my BUT...being a motorcycle rider...I may have SCRUTINIZED the bike scenes too much...here is my bitch.

#1 - Trinity jumps on the Ducati...ok..when was the last time a semi TRAILERED 20 or so Ducati's the way the film did? I mean that was so not possible.... new bikes are in BOXES or trailered in enclosed trailers..not open like that.

#2 - Trinity gets the key to start it...umm...even a track idiot such as myself knows about BASIC trailering of a bike....umm..WHERE WERE THE STRAPS/CANYON DANCERS on the bikes?? I mean come on..the Ducatis were being trailiered on a semi with no straps?? Full of gas?? Dude...

#3 - question...WHY WERE THE HEADLIGHTS NOT ON WHILE TRINITY WAS RIDING??? umm...last time I checked a bike's headlights turn on when you turn the bike on. Especially a brand new STOCK Ducati that she jumps on. The whole time shes riding no headlights...brake lights yes...no headlights. duh...

#4 - the worst...and I guess maybe I am the only one that caught it. When Trinity jumps on the bike and she lands on the freeway and she does the 180 to go in the opposite direction?? She peels out...burning the rear wheel, SMOKING the rear wheel and her hand is NOT ON THE FRONT BRAKE!!!! I mean come on...as I was sitting there watching her burn out and turn the bike around...you can see clearly her right hand, the gas hand, the front brake hand...completely behind the lever. She is not even covering the brake...but the rear wheel was sure smoking....I mean come on...how are you burning out and smoking the rear wheel without the front brake??

ok...those are my bike gripes...

Yeh, if it's 314 then Pi would be the most likely reference. But is it 314 or 315?

Pretty sure it's 314. I thought it could refer to pi, but also possibly some Bible passage -- [book] 3:14.

When looking at his filmography, I was asking myself the same question.

314 or 315
 

Saw it again today; it's 314.

Hmmm your right. The movie sucks because it doesn't correctly portray motorcycles!