Mister Beefhead

Seemed like a good idea to put the "in-depth" plot discussion in it's own thread.

Allow me to start off with these questions for discussion:

So, do you think the Oracle had a hand in the building of the Matrix?

Do you buy into the Architect's story?

What do you think the deal was with Neo stopping the sentinels?

Teremei

I don't know what to beleive anymore. I take everything anybody within the Matrix says with a grain of salt anymore. The Oracle told Neo him or Morpheus would die in the first film. Then later Morpheus said "Aw no Neo, she just said what you needed to hear". So perhaps what any of the leading figures say in the Matrix is just "what neo needs to hear" anymore. It doesn't have to make sense. He just has to hear it to make the choices he does. But choice is an illusion, so it doesn't really matter anyway. Alls he's got to do is kung fu Smith's ass in the third film.

2 possibiltes everyones talking about. Either Zeon is just a another low level layer of the Matrix to convice the people who questioned the Matrix they were in that they were actually free from the Matrix. -OR- Neo somehow has new powers thanks to Smith trying to assimilate him into his Smith collective. He could "sense" the sentinals so either of those are my takes.

The architect said the Oracle had a part in it. The Oracle as the story stands now was created by an outcast machine or program that hated the rest of the machines so it decided to help the humans.

As for the Architect and do I beleive him. I don't remember one word he said. well. . it's possible because it's not, I am because I am, and wa wa wa, wa wa wah bla bla. Hope that helped.

Jackskeleton

Oracle was just another tool in the means to get the one to were he was going. Just like the key maker did his job, so did the oracle.

the architect even laughs when neo ask if she is the mother of the matrix. that goes to show you that she was just another program written for her purpose.

Neo stopping sentials... thats a tricky one. I mean the architect does not want neo to die since he is needed to recreate zion and so forth, maybe the "Real world" is part of the matrix? Neo could feel the sentials just like he could feel the agents in the first film.

in a sense, it's that 1% that made the past matrix go wrong is what neo is.. the past 6 "ones" were the ones that created zion by freeing the minds of those, since in all, there could only be 23 or so survivors of the "format" of it to recreate civilization. now the real question.. what happened to those "ones" was it such a long time back that they just died of natural causes?

Morf

Yes, I think so. Remember from the first film, where Morpheus tells Neo that long ago, there was a man who could control the Matrix, and change what he saw fit? That was the 5th (previous) Neo. He is the one that freed the first of them, at least in the current timeline. Before that, it was the 4th Neo that freed them, and so on...

I've been thinking the same thing since I saw the first Matrix. What if there are an infinite number of Matrices? How would you know if you ever escaped?

Kellehair

My question is...

What choice did the other one's make? It makes sense that they choose to cooperate and rebuild Zion but I was under the impression that they didn't. When Neo chooses the other door you could see in the background the other one's on TV going the same way. This made me think the previous one's choose the same as Neo did and that the architect was manipulating him somehow. Sorry for the rambling but I can barely wrap my mind around any of this. So once again, my Q is what choice did the previous one's make?

Good connection. I've haven't gotten around to trying to connect all the new info from Reloaded to the original yet but that makes good sense. Didn't they say in the original though that a man was born inside?

neiname

ahhh, SPOILERS.... YOU"VE RUINED THE MOVIE FOR ME.... aggghhgghh agghhhha ghahhhhghga.....

Don't you know how to use

Michael Corvin

I believe the architect. But that also means that 600+? years have passed since they took over earth. Correct? 100 or so years between each anomaly, aka Neo. So everytime they chose the same door. Meaning that they wipe the system(matrix) clean within 24 hours and start over. Only this time (in revolutions) this Neo succeeds within the 24 hours where the others have failed. Maybe?

TCG

Whoa... seriously.

When Neo stops the sentinels, it is another clue that lines between the real world and the matrix are blurring, also with Smith entering Zion.

As for the Chinese guy (not the keymaker), the Oracle's bodyguard, remember how Neo saw him glowing? I think this is VERY significant, but I dont know how. Maybe he is the true oracle, or another anomaly, or some special program. He was the only guy that was on the same fighting level as Neo. He'll be very important in Revolutions.

PS: did anyone else think of Ghostbusters when hearing about the 'keymaker'?

Morf

I kept asking where the Gate Keeper was, but no one got it. Stupid friends.

AndyCapps

OK, since he is the sixth anomaly, I have an idea. When Smith reached into Neo during the first battle of the Smiths, what was he doing? Did he want to Smithalate him, or was it something else? Did he want to take control over him? Let's say there were 5 before Neo, and each took the other choice. Could it be because an agent successfully took control of them and made that choice because they somehow knew that the other choice would lead to the end of the war and agent obsolescence? Could it be that the ones who came before were just exercises and Neo truly is The One? He can do things none have done before, and was able to make his own choice.

I left the theater last night feeling empty. Wish I could have known about the Revolutions trailer. But what I saw last night is making more sense to me today. Or is it?

tacos

The only thing I know for sure is that this movie has some serious action. Who cares if you can figure out what the hell is going on. I sure can't!

CheapBastid

I want to quickly address that point you make.

Re-watch the first film. She says that one of them will die.

One of my favorite things about the first movie is the sublte perfection of the Oracle scene. She doesn't tell him anything that is false. He makes assumptions (as you did).

TCG

I believe the architect was saying that this Neo is different because he is in love (w/ Trinity). The previous were not in love. So this makes Neo choose to save Trinity rather than Zion, therefore making him very different than the previous Ones.

Kellehair

Wow! I missed that part completely. It all makes a lot more sense now.

D_N_G

I posted this somewhere else, but figured this is a better thread:

a conceptual review:

even though you have the ability to choose, you actually think you are choosing in your own reality, but your choice is already predetermined along with your purpose and the outcome is already precalculated, so in the end the choice is just a facade for control. you have freedom that you think is ever spanding but that freedom has boundaries that you cant see or comprehend, so it only seems that you are free in your own reality. that is what "the matrix" itsself is, just one big set of controlling logic statements that are the invisible boundary for true freedom

the oracle may have seemed to be helping neo in the "matrix reality", but the oracles only job was to get neo back to the source to transfer the code into the matrix. "the one", no matter what happened, would have been unharmed by the matrix programs because he has a specific function to carry out. and on top of that the matrix would protect neo until he completed his function.

with the advent of the rogue code (agent smith) being able to merge and duplicate his own code not only into copies of itsself, but into the "soul/program" of the people plugged into the system, the rouge code has become platform independent and somehow broken away from matrix control.

this concept is not very far fetched. if the human mind is compatible with the matrix anyway, you have to assume that the mind itself is running some sort of program/code and acts as an individual node, kind of like a pc workstation that becomes a member of a domain, even though it can function individually, the domain still controls overall functionality.

Agent Smith has essentially become a virus, and can bring his presence to both the matrix reality and human reality through his new gained transfer/duplication powers. The oracle warned neo about code anomalies because it was in the best interest of the matrix itself to protect him from agent smith and any other rogue.


neo in reloaded broke the coding logic, because even though a machine/computer may be able to narrow down possibilities based on logic, the machines never could take in to account the power of every emotion and capture all of the combinations/possibilities in code form. apparently the machines got pretty advanced and captured a lot of emotion logic, but not all .this can be concluded from the 5 previous "the one" choices as "the one's" purpose is to carry this emotion code and other code back to the source to be reprocessed through a cycle so that the matrix can formulate new and better control code.

neo's mix of emotion of love and his finally understanding that true freedom means taking a chance (kind of selfish on his part cause he could end up wiping out the human race) lead to an unpredictable break in the source control program's expected response. this was the one flaw in the entire matrix, even with all of the invisible controls in place, this one human choice for this specific occurrance could never be controlled fully

(or is that what we are supposed to believe?...)

Speculations:



With both a copy of the agent residing, and neo's new powers realized in "human reality", this leads me to think that even neo's choice not to save zion was predetermined by the matrix

if the matrix could control physical humans without having them plugged into the main system, then their control factor gets pretty damn close to 100% for any possible scenario in either "reality"

the matrix knows that agent smith is a threat somehow, or wants to test new upgraded controls in the "human reality". either way the matrix wouldnt just let neo go, because its survival dependeds on him. i think possibly that this time "the one" recieved new code from the source instead of giving to it. this is why he had the ability to control the machines in the human realm. all part of the matrix's plan

once again a "reality" controlled by the matrix, and not by human choice. neo thought he realized where the freedom boundary was (the door to save trinity), but the matrix made him think that he knew what it was, and made him think that he could break this boundary so that it could keep him in control with a bigger control behind that door, you follow?....

After reading some of the above posts some of these ideas changed:

Yes maybe the "human reality" is just a sublayer of the real matrix, that would explain neos abilities in both realms, and he just needed to get to the source in order to unlock the ability to use it in both. this means "the one" is still doing what he is supposed to with the guidance of the matrix controls. this would also mean that "the one" could be just a program inhabiting a human neo?

Numanoid

One thing which I've been trying to figure out. As you all know, the Matrix films are replete with religious symbolism, particularly Christian. In Christianity, the number 7 is holy, representing God himself, or Perfection. 6 is the number of man, just short of Godliness. It is mistakenly regarded as the number of the Devil in common understanding, however. If this current Neo is the 6th one, then perhaps he is not "The One", but another yet to come will be (who will be the 7th). And will our Neo turn out to simply be "a man" or perhaps even "a Devil"?

tacos

How bout that action! LOL

jdpatri

I've mentioned this in another thread... but I'll toss it into discussion here as well...

Was it ever explicity said that the monitors represented the previous "Ones"? I saw them representing the many choices Neo could make. The different gestures the Neos on the monitors made were the different thoughts in Neo's head....

...therefore when Neo was presented with the option of saving Zion or saving Trinity, he whole-heartedly chose Trinity. No part of him considered saving Zion....

Kellehair

Ooooooh...I like that. I thought that when the architect first mentioned the previous "ones" he motioned to the screens. That just could have been my mind playing tricks on me though. Your explanation makes a lot more sense.

CheapBastid

To make you feel better (worse?) I got a sideways glance from my buddy and nodded when the 'Keymaker' was referenced. Nothing needed to be said, we both were all over The Gatekeeper.

=)

CheapBastid

I'm with you on this one with a slight modification. The screens were postulates of possible outcomes/reactions of this encounter, not necessarily thoughts in Neo's head.

Bruce

I suggest reading David Poland's review at www.thehotbutton.com .....it is the best review I have read yet, and I agree with almost all of his views on the movie. Be sure to read the spoiler 2nd part of the review too.

Basically: Neo is a program. There is a real world, and Neo entered it much like Smith did when he took over one of the crew's body. Everything the architetc said was true (the cast has said this in interviews).

Bruce

Yes, that is what I thought they were as well.

Bruce

Neo did die in the first film. He then came back as "The One."

The Oracle aslo told him that he had the stuff, but was waiting for something. Maybe his next life.

Aslo, Smith tell Neo (in Reloaded) that he killed Neo but Neo didn't die. And at the end of Reloaded when Trinity die and Neo brings he back, she tell him that they are even now.

Michael T Hudson

I said the same thing ot my buddy but he got it.