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Equilibrium: reviews - what gives?

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Equilibrium: reviews - what gives?

Old 12-17-02, 11:01 AM
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The gun switch happened after all those action scenes. It happened after the "dog in the trunk" scene, and almost immediately after the pistol whipping escapade.

He took Brandt's gun with his right hand, and handed back his own gun on his left hand. That explains when Brandt looked at the gun after the accusation, it had Preston's ID. Any shock Brandt may have shown was intentional though, to give Preson "a false sense of security", in the words of DuPont.


Jamezuva

The reason why Preston didn't notice Brandt's brief emotional displays was because he had bigger things in his mind. Remember, he met him right after shooting his partner, and the next morning, he was already beginning to feel the effect of his missed dosages. Needless to say, he had a lot on his mind.

Also, even if he was such a great fighter due to "will" and being "the best," that still doesn't explain how he can basically kick so much ass without getting hurt. I can see maybe how he could take on 6 guys at a time and such, but the number of baddies he killed at the end was ridiculous for one person just because he's "used" to his emotions and has determination. Exactly how many bullets have to be flying through the air at a given time in a small area of space before the limits of human movement lead to him getting nipped by one? Just because another movie has a similar situation (e.g. Time And Tide), it doesn't mean it's justified. I can live with the Matrix because Reeve's ability was justified in that movie, in Time and Tide and here, I don't think it was justified

Okay, I give up. It's obvious that if you're willing to go to such lengths to discredit the movie, then nothing will convince you otherwise. A staple of ALL action-oriented films is that the hero doesn't get hit. To singularly fault Equilibrium for this is a bit of a stretch on your part. At the very least, EQ provided a reason based on incredible physical training and intelligence, but it had a reasonable explanation. If you can't suspend your disbelief even THAT much, then fine, there are plenty of other films out there for you to enjoy.

How do you cope with Arnie mowing down 100+ soldiers to rescue his daughter in Commando, while not getting shot ONCE? I mean, he just stood there firing away most of the time, so why wasn't he killed before entering the compound?

How exactly do the heroes of Star Wars fight countless times against crack Imperial stormtroopers (Obi-Wan "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are this precise), yet never get killed in ANY of these engagements. With the exception of Leia getting a slight burn on her shoulder in ROTJ, the worst injury any of them had was a tired trigger finger.

Rambo? Leon? True Lies? Crouching Tiger?

The funny thing is, you actually bring up The Matrix in your response as acceptable. How exactly was Keanu "justified" in doing all he could do in that movie? The ONLY justifiable reason is....get ready for this......Morpheus said so. That's it! Because Morpheus says that he is the One, and that he's capable of learning kung-fu and he doesn't have to dodge bullets, yadda yadda yadda. There is no noteworthy difference between:
  • Morpheus telling us that Neo is "The One", capable of stopping bullets to a crawl, and pulling a reverse Aliens chestburster on Agent Smith

  • DuPont explaining the basic concept of Gun-Kata, which allows a trained Cleric to put themselves in a position to kill a maximum number of people, while minimizing their own chances of getting hit, with firearm accuracy increasing 150%.

I guess you have your reasons for not liking the flick, but to single out Preston's extraordinary ability to survive long odds, means you'd have similar issues with virtually every action film ever released, so EQ would be one of thousands you wouldn't enjoy.
Old 12-17-02, 12:44 PM
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It's one thing for the main protagonist to get killed, it's another to get wounded due to realistic comparisons of fighting ability. I don't think Reeves only difference was that Morpheus told him he was "the One," because he could actually manifest powers that were unique to him (for example moving as fast as the agents and being able to see through and control aspects of the Matrix). Plus, Reeves even got injured by a bullet the first time he encountered an agent on the rooftop. Ahhh...so even though he may have been superior to the agents, he atleast showed some vulnerability before he mastered his abilities. Also, look at Spiderman, there, he gets his ass kicked by the green goblin in the climax although he was relatively recently discovered his powers. Thus, I don't necessitate that Preston be killed but that he show some realistic response to the situation he's in, otherwise I don't feel any "fear" for him (yes, I know he's going to die, but it's good to momentarily feel like the character is in danger if he gets hurt, so you become more invested in him). Just presenting him as completely invincible isn't acceptable to me given the extreme opposition he's against and lack of truly unique abilities that are able to change the laws of physics and biology. Again, I like plenty of flicks where I know that the protagonist(s) won't die, but it should be realistic in how the danger the characters are in should manifest themselves. And btw, the jedi are quite a bit up a league compared to storm troopers, so I accept that they don't get hurt by their laser blasts....however, look at Qui-Gon Jinn who gets killed by....Darth Maul, someone who is atleast on par with Jinn's abilities...now do you see my point?

Also, while you were able to adequately explain why Preston couldn't detect Brandt's emotions, you didn't address why he couldn't detect those of his children. He had plenty of time living with them (without major events going on) to have been able to pick them up, yet he didn't. And children, I doubt, have the mental skills of adults, so they should be even more vulnerable to mind probing or whatever clerics use

Last edited by Jamezuva; 12-17-02 at 12:48 PM.
Old 12-17-02, 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by Gioman
The gun switch happened after all those action scenes. It happened after the "dog in the trunk" scene, and almost immediately after the pistol whipping escapade.

He took Brandt's gun with his right hand, and handed back his own gun on his left hand. That explains when Brandt looked at the gun after the accusation, it had Preston's ID. Any shock Brandt may have shown was intentional though, to give Preson "a false sense of security", in the words of DuPont.
You have successfully explained why the gun switching makes no sense.

He kills the squad (during the puppy scene) before the crackdown. It was this killing of the squad that prompted the crackdown a couple scenes later.

After the crackdown, Brandt and Preston supposedly switch guns. See how that makes no sense?

Now, the only way for this gun switching to make any sense would come from the scene before Brandt and Preston check out the caged dogs. Preston loads a weapon, then hands it to Brandt--this is where the switch would have to take place.

Even then, the switch still does not make sense. When Preston kills the entire squad, he uses two pistols--not one. This would mean Preston would have to use at least one of his own pistols...

But these are trivial details, and I don't think the plot was the strongest point of the film.

Originally posted by Jamezuva

And btw, the jedi are quite a bit up a league compared to storm troopers, so I accept that they don't get hurt by their laser blasts....
By the way, a Cleric First Class is also in a higher league than any of the guards surrounded DuPont. Why DuPont didn't position better guards is questionable.

Originally posted by Jamezuva

Plus, Reeves even got injured by a bullet the first time he encountered an agent on the rooftop. Ahhh...so even though he may have been superior to the agents, he atleast showed some vulnerability before he mastered his abilities. Also, look at Spiderman, there, he gets his ass kicked by the green goblin in the climax although he was relatively recently discovered his powers
Okay, Neo gets hurt, and so does Parker; but I think the fact that Preston escapes unharmed (except for that strange mark on his neck...) makes his character that much more of, to put it simply, a badass.

Till again.
Old 12-17-02, 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by Corvin
You have successfully explained why the gun switching makes no sense.

He kills the squad (during the puppy scene) before the crackdown. It was this killing of the squad that prompted the crackdown a couple scenes later.

After the crackdown, Brandt and Preston supposedly switch guns. See how that makes no sense?

Now, the only way for this gun switching to make any sense would come from the scene before Brandt and Preston check out the caged dogs. Preston loads a weapon, then hands it to Brandt--this is where the switch would have to take place.

Even then, the switch still does not make sense. When Preston kills the entire squad, he uses two pistols--not one. This would mean Preston would have to use at least one of his own pistols...

But these are trivial details, and I don't think the plot was the strongest point of the film.


It still makes sense. After the crimes were committed, Preston's guns were incriminating evidence. After he killed everyone he killed, he handed one off to Brandt to lay the eventual blame on him.

Now remember, Brandt and DuPont ultimately WANTED Preston to think he had foiled them. The reason why the "2nd gun" is never brought up, is because it gets in the way of DuPont scheme to trick Preston into turning in the Resistance and be rewarded with getting to meet Father. Preston's big mistake was in thinking his boss was that gullible, but again, he didn't know that he was secretly plotting with his new partner.

By the way, a Cleric First Class is also in a higher league than any of the guards surrounded DuPont. Why DuPont didn't position better guards is questionable.
My personal theory is that DuPont and Preston are the only Clerics First Class. I don't even remember Brandt being referred to as one.

Okay, Neo gets hurt, and so does Parker; but I think the fact that Preston escapes unharmed (except for that strange mark on his neck...) makes his character that much more of, to put it simply, a badass.

Till again.

Thanks for summing it up. How is it possible that two incredibly talented Jedi Knights got their asses handed to them, with their enemy laughing in their faces? The reason is because they were facing Count Dokuu. He was head and shoulders better than them, and even held his own against Master Yoda.

The point is that the lobby scene and the final sword scenes were there to show the incredible abilities of the best Grammaton Cleric First Class. Apparently, they are that much better than regular fighters, and even other lesser skilled Clerics. Only another Cleric First Class had a chance at taking him out, but then again, it wasn't enough to take out the best.
Old 12-17-02, 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by Gioman
Now remember, Brandt and DuPont ultimately WANTED Preston to think he had foiled them. The reason why the "2nd gun" is never brought up, is because it gets in the way of DuPont scheme to trick Preston into turning in the Resistance and be rewarded with getting to meet Father. Preston's big mistake was in thinking his boss was that gullible, but again, he didn't know that he was secretly plotting with his new partner.
I think this is giving the movie more intelligence credit than it deserves. It would make Preston stupid, essentially. Which I don't think was supposed to be the case.

Also, Preston did hand his gun off Brandt--that's true. So Brandt would take the eventual blame. But that still doesn't explain how Preston had Brandt's gun before the switch.
Old 12-17-02, 03:28 PM
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He didn't have Brandt's gun before the switch. Preston gave Brandt his own gun, which is why when Brandt checked the weapon after being accused, it had Preston's name etched on it.

Does it make Preston look stupid? Maybe, but perhaps Preston figured that they would discover the truth eventually, and that's why he pressed to meet Father as quickly as possible. Preston noticed Brandt's histronic fit after he brought him in to DuPont's office, in addition to the part where he was dragged out.

Since we don't know how their gun registry is kept, there's no way to know if the Librian government registers and tracks the use of every single weapon issued the Grammaton Clerics, or if they just run the ballistics tests and test the guns you're currently holding.

Perhaps a quick scene with Preston using a computer to enter Brandt's name into an existing Preston record would have helped explain something, but I don't think Preston's plot was that particularly involved. He did what he could, in the limited time that he had, and while it wasn't necessarily dumb or naive, he underestimated the preparedness of his adversaries. Hell, he didn't know DuPont WAS his direct adversary until he revealed himself. He just needed a quick meeting with Father, so he took a gamble.

*edit*
Besides, heroes are taken by surprise all the time. Look at Joe Pantoliano in the Matrix, Indy with the Nazi blonde in the Last Crusade, or Lando in ESB. A well devised plot behind the hero's back doesn't reflect poorly on the hero when revealed.

Last edited by Gioman; 12-17-02 at 03:33 PM.
Old 12-17-02, 03:42 PM
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Touche.

There was a question about why Preston didn't notice his children were feeling.

He missed the fact that his wife as feeling--so it doesn't seem far-stretched that he'd miss his children as well. I think the paternal love he had for them went beyond his call of duty--even when he was on the proper dosage.

Till again.
Old 12-17-02, 03:59 PM
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Not only that, but that kid was probably the most intelligent character in the entire movie. Aside from following his mother's footsteps, and allowing himself to feel, he knew how important it was to keep it secret.

Remember the scene when he was in front of that giant screen, watching Father's lesson?

He asked his father whether he should report his friend to the authorities, since he caught him crying. Preston answered, "Unquestionably".

That little guy made the whole thing up. He was testing his dad, checking him every now and again to see if he was off his Librium. The scene in the bedroom probably gave him the idea that his dad wasn't acting his Libriated self, so a quick check around, and he found his father's stash of ununsed vials.

So the stereotypical "Hitler Youth" I had envisioned turned out to be smarter than the system had expected.
Old 12-17-02, 10:44 PM
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Yeah, I realized it when his son called Bale "Dad" rather than John.

Subtle hints are always the coolest...

Till again.
Old 12-18-02, 03:58 PM
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SPOILERS people!

I'm excited about this film, and was trying to get a few reads on it, but as soon as I loaded page 2 the spoilers started piling on.

There's a tag folks, use it.
Old 12-18-02, 10:13 PM
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Sorry Bastid.


I was convinced the only five people that saw this flick would be the ones reading the thread. Just consider this whole damn thread off limits.


I was using spoiler tags, but I got lazy once the debate got headed. My apologies.
Old 12-18-02, 10:15 PM
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By the way, if you haven't seen it by now, it will be EXTREMELY difficult to find it in theaters, especially after Friday. In the entire South Florida area, it's only playing in one theater, for one last showing tommorow. By Friday, it will be gone everywhere, according to the director.
Old 12-19-02, 03:16 AM
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Re: SPOILERS people!

Originally posted by CheapBastid
I'm excited about this film, and was trying to get a few reads on it, but as soon as I loaded page 2 the spoilers started piling on.

There's a tag folks, use it.
Yeh! I'm looking back at this thread to see more opinions and all I'm seeing are SPOILERS without the damn tags. Thanks people.
Old 12-23-02, 04:45 PM
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I've been waiting to see this movie with a bunch of my friends, but havent had the time because of work. Going to try and see it this Friday. According to Yahoo, there's no movie times listed for that day yet... but hopefully its still playing.
Old 12-24-02, 03:29 AM
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It's no longer playing in the Dallas area, it lasted a whole two weeks, what a shame. Please go see it if you still can.
Old 12-24-02, 09:32 AM
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Well, that's it for the Seattle area. Damn, and I was hoping to take my mother for X-mas, too.
Old 12-24-02, 12:38 PM
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No longer in Houston.

If Dimension/Miramax were smart, they would rerelease this film sometime next year with proper adverstising.
Old 12-24-02, 02:08 PM
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I just downloaded the trailer and, after whatching that, I cannot wait to see this movie. Unfortunately, a quick search online shows that no theatre here in Puerto Rico seems to have any plans to show the film. This suck. Here's hoping it'll show up eventually. If not, I see a blind buy in buy in my future.
Old 12-24-02, 03:35 PM
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So where is everyone getting these pictures from? I'd really like to know...
Old 12-24-02, 10:34 PM
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No longer showing here in South Florida.
Old 12-25-02, 01:07 AM
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hell I liked it even though I can see many of its flaws, in the end I just have to admit that was pretty damn cool
Old 12-25-02, 03:10 PM
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I've definitely heard of movies being rereleased sometimes; who knows, maybe some freak chance will allow this to happen with Equilibrium:





Old 12-26-02, 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by UKingdom
I've definitely heard of movies being rereleased sometimes; who knows, maybe some freak chance will allow this to happen with Equilibrium:






---yeah, you guys should check the second run theatres. Usually, they start running them after a couple of months or sooner if it's a film that bombed.
Old 12-29-02, 10:29 PM
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Not to continue a debate that's never going to end, but I've got a post quota to meet! Just kidding...

I guess it's just a flaw in the flick regarding the gun switch point. The only reason I questioned it at all is because when both Diggs and Bayle are before the father-figure type regarding the killing of the police, they were going by gun ballistics on their computer, and then Diggs looks at his weapon and sees the etching. But, as established, the switcheroo happened after that incident, so it doesn't explain the ballistics situation.

But what does it matter, the movie totally rocked, and I'm sorry that it got such s**tty support from the distrubtor/company...whoever is responsible for advertising it. If there's any movie I could recommend as being a blind buy, this would be it.

Thanks for the fun discussion about the switcheroo everyone!
Old 12-29-02, 11:30 PM
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Hopefully its re-run. I was going to see it but the theater that had it stopped playing it on christmas day.

Oh, is it just me or is it annoying when pictures are 'quoted' :/

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