Brian T

Most of Yen's movies recent movies, however, are better than this (having said that, I suspect certain viewers will rank this as his absolute best now that expectations have been do drastically lowered ). This opens with a sequence that could have been expanded into an infinitely more interesting movie in its own right, but instead returns home to the ubiquitous 1930's Shanghai Street Set seen in countless mainland films and TV shows these past few years, for the usual rounds of nationalist chest-thumping.

The main problem isn't Yen (although his choreography is far more by rote than usual), it's Andrew Lau. I'm sure whichever company distributes it in the west will trade on Lau's INFERNAL AFFAIRS connection, but this isn't that Andrew Lau, it's the Andrew Lau who, unrestrained by Alan Mak, gave us THE PARK, WESLEY'S MYSTERIOUS STORY and DANCE OF A DREAM (doubt that last one would find viewers here anyways, but still). His decision to extend the ridiculously-accelerated editing rhythms beyond the action scenes (where they bury much of the choreography that is there) into the dialogue scenes as a bad one. Seriously, tap your finger through the cuts/takes during nearly any scene in the movie, and you'll rarely find one lasting more than two or three seconds. Even the romantic scenes! It's as if Lau studied comic book movies of the last 15 years -- which is what he tried to make here -- but came away with the mistaken impression that only rapid-fire editing made them work.

As far as Yen goes, one gets the feeling from his performance as the film progresses that his heart wasn't entirely in the project, but then again, even that could be attributable to Lau, who's never been known as an actor's director unless Alan Mak's hanging around the set.

The entire picture, as it played at TIFF, was dubbed quite poorly (in Mandarin) with the voicework rarely matching the visual tenor of the performances.

Finally, it's frustrating to think that in 2010, certain Chinese/Hong Kong filmmakers still insist on hiring the most embarrassing Caucasian "performers" for their pictures. I'd bet a week's pay that the white guy who "portrays" the crooked district police chief in LEGEND OF THE FIST was just some lucky stooge with no prior experience who simply happened to be near the studio one day during pre-production. Even without the atrocious dubbing (by someone who's first language decidedly isn't English - some things never change!), he's just a great big sore thumb every time he's on screen. There's another Gwailo in the picture who meets an untimely demise; he's an amateur as well, but thankfully he doesn't speak much before he gets blown up.

The Running Man

Is that really any different from Hollywood?

Case and point, The Departed.

The scene with the Chinese gangsters had spoken Cantonese that was not fluent. I remember reading a report on a blog that in some screenings in Hong Kong people in the audiences were rolling in the aisles at that scene because of how bad it was. And yet, it was a major motion picture release.

What's even more embarrassing in this case is that it's not like it would've been hard to find someone who speaks Cantonese in Boston. There is a Chinatown there after all.

And lets not forgot that the fact those characters were speaking Cantonese is a bit of a stretch. They were introduced as gangsters from Mainland China I believe. So it would've been wiser to have them speak Mandarin.

At least in a movie like Ip Man 2, the British are speaking in British English and not like a Texan.

I haven't seen Legend of the Fist yet though.

Brian T

It's a bit different than Hollywood.

Keeping in mind that we're contrasting contemporary mainstream Hollywood movies like THE DEPARTED and contemporary mainstream Hong Kong/Chinese movies like CHEN ZHEN, and forgiving the fact that you've yet to see CHEN ZHEN and are referencing a four year-old movie, the difference in practices of casting supporting/extra roles is a big one, and CHEN ZHEN's police chief is a textbook example of such a difference.

If I had to choose between:

a) an Asian-American actor who isn't fluent in Mandarin or Chinese but has had formal acting training, as is almost always the case in Hollywood films . . .

or

b) a Caucasian NON-actor, fluent in his/her native language or proficient in martial arts, but possessed of almost no discernible acting talent, as is too often the case in Hong Kong and Chinese movies, especially when the directors aren't comfortable directing non-Chinese performers . . .

. . . I'll go with the former every time.

This is about contrasting levels of acting professionalism for me. I can generally forgive an inauthentic-but-in-the-ballpark accent. We all do it with movies from all over the world (and it's more than just being grateful that a Brit sounds British instead of Texan). I can't, however, in 2010 forgive miscast non-actors in key roles taking me right out of the picture whenever they're on screen, and I see that in mainstream HK/Chinese cinema far more than I do in mainstream Hollywood cinema. Feng Xiaogang almost commits this same sin in AFTERSHOCK, with a no-name Caucasian actor hired to portray Zhang Jingchu's Canadian husband in the film's final act, but Feng seems to understand his own limitations working with non-Chinese actors, and so doesn't let this particular performer embarrass himself too badly. Would that Andrew Lau cared this much about his finished product.

toddly6666

+1

Yeah, I agree - I've seen many Indian and Asian movies ruined because of the English-speaking non-actors in those films. It's almost not a big deal if the English-speaking non-actors just had a tiny role as a goon, but a lot of the times, these guys are the main villains and get tons of screen time, which in turn makes the movie impossible to rewatch.

Brian T

This type of casting has practically been the norm in HK movies for decades -- except on those rare occasions where productions have been able to import "name" talent with quantifiable acting ability (Paul Rudd springs to mind, though the less said about the movie he appeared in, the better) -- I've taught myself to accept it, and if I could, I'd recommend anyone contemplating a love affair with the city's cinema do the same, as the positive and dynamic aspects of the films usually outweigh the negative aspects of miscast, non-professional Caucasians (or Blacks or Hispanics) being in a significant roles.

Obviously, Hollywood has a huge advantage when it comes to mainstream productions because of the multi-cultural nature of the United States and Canada. The talent pool for supporting players and even bit parts is, in general, far more diverse and better trained, with the CVs of people of nearly every ethnicity filling the digital filing cabinets of every casting agent in town. Even when the roles border on the overly-familiar -- like "Asian Lab Assistant" or "Koreatown Storekeeper" or "Yakuza Thug #2" -- the performers hired to play them are at least serious about their craft, regardless of whether their mastery of Cantonese, Korean or Japanese -- if they're called upon to use it -- will raise the eyebrow of a native speaker (or Asian film fans like some of us here). That's what you get when you hire people with formal training and experience working in Hollywood film and television, even second- and third-stringers. But because Chinese and Hong Kong directors (or Indian, etc.) are largely uncomfortable or inexperienced working with non-Chinese actors, and their cultures lean toward homogenous, they're quick to hire a (too often recurring) handful of ex-pats who seemingly happen to be available on their days off from the office, instead of spending the extra cash and importing experienced actors capable of crafting passable, believable characters on their own, even with minimal directorial input because of language barriers,

Obviously, one can't paint all English performers appearing in Hong Kong movies with the same brush, as there have been some decent ones over the years, but they've been the exception rather than the rule, and a list of the glaringly shabby non-Asian actors in Asian films would sadly be a long one, and much longer than the list of shabby Asian-American actors appearing in American films.

toddly6666

Check out the awful British actors in this huge hit from Malayalam India. The movie is called Kerala Varma Pazhassiraja. But I call it The Hairy Uncle Kings.

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Dr Mabuse

Anyone seen 'Death and Glory in Changde'?

Review?

toddly6666

Wong Kar-Wai's THE GRANDMASTERS might be the first film I like from Wong Kar-Wai. I'm hoping it's good! Woo Ping Yeun is doing the action.

flixtime

Picked up the Korean DVD release of 71 - INTO THE FIRE. It's a based-on-a-true-story, Korean War melodrama...the story of 71 young South Korean student soldiers who are assigned the task of defending a school while the remainder of the South Korean army is engaged in a crucial battle not too far away...it's a classic ALAMO/ZULU/7 MAN ARMY/THE 300 SPARTANS set-up. I thoroughly enjoyed it...a fine piece of entertainment...and an emotionally touching story. It doesn't really do anything new with the genre, so I might not exactly put it on my "best" of 2010 list, but there is no doubt at all that I would place it on my "favorites" of 2010 list. I'd guess that folks who enjoyed Korea's TAEGUKGI from a few years ago would likely find great satisfaction with 71 - INTO THE FIRE. While it might not be any "better" than any of the other recent war films I've seen, I easily found it a more satisfying experience when compared, for example, to some of the recent WWII films to come out of Europe the past few years.

Also caught South Korea's THE HOUSEMAID (2010) a while back. The original 60's version I found to be more a black comedy than anything else. This remake is different in tone though - more natural and realistic - and from what I recall was much more centered on the dynamic between the five female cast members. The movie was good, and certainly technically slick, though the story perhaps was a little dry/cold/detached. If I had to rewatch one...I might actually go with the original 60's version for its entertainment value.

Also caught a late 2009 entry from South Korea - THE TAOIST WIZARD...a thorough bore, didn't like it at all...I should've just watched the underappreciated ARAHAN again, or perhaps even MY MIGHTY PRINCESS.

Up next from South Korea for me will be POETRY and BESTSELLER. And I am very eager for the DVD release later this month of South Korea's MOSS...from the director of SILMIDO and the PUBLIC ENEMY trilogy...which are some of my favorite South Korean films.

The Running Man

In the case of The Departed it was even more of a fail as it was a remake of Infernal Affairs, a Chinese movie. But I digress.

Let me underline it this way:

You have a role of a British character.

Two scenarios:

- A person plays him and speaks the correct dialect of English his character is supposed to be from, but isn't a very good actor, or a "non-actor".

- An actor plays him but speaks in a thick French accent and makes basic mistakes with the English language.

Both those scenarios are bad. However, with the former, depending on how much is asked of the person and how much screen time he/she has, I can let it slide. The latter? No. If a character is said to be from a place and the actor playing him fails on the dialect and even how to speak the language then you have just taken me out of the movie.

Truthfully, I have not seen Legend of the Fist yet but the point still remains. And although I haven't seen it, I'd be surprised if I didn't agree with your comments on the movie itself since what you suggest about Andrew Lau I agree with.

flixtime

Following on my previous post, I did finish up my DVD viewing of Korea's POETRY (2010) from respected arthouse director LEE Chang-dong (SECRET SUNSHINE, OASIS, PEPPERMINT CANDY, GREEN FISH). POETRY would be a logical companion piece to last year's MOTHER from director BONG Joon-ho. Both films feature an older woman as the protagonist, while the lead in MOTHER is investigating a traditional murder mystery, the lead in POETRY - despite too being presented with a crime - is investigating a mystery more within herself...a searching of her soul. I thought MOTHER was a good film with a terrific last quarter. And while I wasn't as enamored as most seem to have been with LEE Chang-dong's previous effort SECRET SUNSHINE, I found the quiet, low-key, and naturalistic POETRY to be an excellent effort...strong storytelling, character, and resonance in a plain vanilla wrapping. I suspect a portion of moviegoers would find the film too slow, lacking in thrills, and overlong at 139 minutes, but I savored every minute of the experience. I've seen four of the six films shortlisted by South Korea for submission to the upcoming Oscars. I haven't yet viewed the one officially selected - A BAREFOOT DREAM - but POETRY would be my clear choice over the other three I've viewed - 71 INTO THE FIRE, THE HOUSEMAID, and BLADES OF BLOOD (I can't believe this last one was even under consideration). I'll be checking out A BAREFOOT DREAM a little later this month, but I have a feeling that the Korean selection committee might well have erred in bypassing POETRY.

gerrytwo

If you get the chance, see Detective Dee and the Mystery of the Phantom Flame. Director Tsui Hark in fine form presenting how Detective Dee solves the case of the spontaneously combusting people in Imperial China. Great comic book stuff and Hark can do some job when he has more than a shoestring movie budget. That giant Buddha set is very impressive.

LorenzoL

I want it to watch this at the Toronto International Film Festival but my schedule conflicted with the movie showings and didn't go.

Rypro 525

anyone here see a movie called 71: Into the Fire? Korean war movie?

eXcentris

Scroll up to post# 259.

Ash Ketchum

And the thing is, producers can probably get name actors from the west to go over and appear in these things for a fairly cheap price. Someone who's been either out of the spotlight for a while or someone who's trying to get into the spotlight and has an interest in working overseas. Even in the '70s, they managed to get Richard Harrison, an American who'd made a name for himself in Italian westerns, to appear in some HK films. (He played Marco Polo in one!) But that was a rarity.

Japan used to do the same thing. But then someone got the bright idea to hire Nick Adams, a name actor from Hollywood, for FRANKENSTEIN CONQUERS THE WORLD and GODZILLA VS. MONSTER ZERO. And, later on, Vic Morrow for MESSAGE FROM SPACE. And quite a few other examples.

The problem is the insular thinking of the producers and of the audiences. They don't care what "gwailo" or "gaijin" think of the finished product and they're perfectly happy with inept performances by non-pro westerners. It's frustrating to us in the west who actually pay attention to these things.

Brian T

The jobs are clearly there on a limited basis, and I jump for joy every time I see such a "name" pop up in an Asian film (as does happen on occasion), regardless of the film's final quality or performance. It's just that added touch of professionalism that counts.


Excellent points about Adams and Morrow. Adams deserves the most credit for actually being interested and engaged in the culture in which he was making those pictures (I even recall reading about a romance of some kind). It was more than just a job to him. The derivative MESSAGE FROM SPACE was beneath Morrow's talents, and his performance seemed to reflect that, but a professional actor "dialing it down", so to speak, is still infinitely better than a non-actor carelessly pulled off the street in a gwailo/gaijin cattle call.

CHEN ZHEN is, essentially, an A-list Chinese picture, and it suffers when these non-actors appear on screen, however briefly (although it's not without other problems). Granted, we've all been tolerant of such casting for 10, 15, 25 years or more, but I can't be convinced that in 2010 only western viewers would be taken out of the film by it. Contemporary Chinese viewers, especially those on the mainland, are cinematically-savvy enough, through increased exposure to films from the west and the greatly increased production values of their own cinema over the past decade, to raise an eyebrow at such shenanigans, even if they, like us, have little choice but to accept it. You're right, it may be commonplace thanks to the insular thinking of producers over several decades ("It's just a Gwailo part; anyone will do."), but ultimately it should be as insulting to the home audience as it is to us, but like us, Chinese viewers are mostly left to the internet to voice their ridicule (as some have on Chinese-language sites, meaning it's at least not all in my head! ).

Interesting you mention Richard Harrison. Were he in his prime right now, even he would've been better than the amateur gwailos they got for CHEN ZHEN.

Incidentally, on the whole, this is a minor irritant to me -- despite my lengthy replies on the subject -- that could be easily corrected by producers, directors, whoever. Figured that should be stated in advance of others who eventually see the film brushing off such concerns as petty.

The Running Man

Replace "gwailo" and "gajin" with "yellow people" and "westerners" and "west" with "Asians" and "East" and the exact same thing applies to an "A-list" Western movie like The Departed.

Which, I repeat, is worse than normal since that was actually a (inferior) remake of a Chinese movie.

So really, this is hardly a unique situation or even something to mull over about.

Ash Ketchum

There were non-pro Asians in THE DEPARTED?

The Running Man

Were there any in Legend of the Fist?

Here is the listing of one of the main non-Asian actors from the movie: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2531281/

Not only does it say he was acting since a very young age but that he is the founder and chairmen of the Shanghai Actor's Association. That sound pretty professional to me.

Truthfully, I don't know if BrianT was referring to that particular non-Asian actor but his presence certainly disproves BrianT's comments of Asian producers pulling just anyone out of the street who is white and putting them in a movie. It might have been the case back in the day but that really isn't so much the case anymore.

I've seen Legend of the Fist and from my point of view BrianT's comments about the non-Asian actors are exaggerated. There has been some truly horrible acting before by whites in Asian movies and it's not in Legend of the Fist. Look no further than something like a movie from back in the day like Black Cat where you had some random European guy with a thick non-English accent playing the part of a supposedly 100% American truck driver.

Another thing, none of the non-Asian actors in Legend of Chen Zhen had that big of a part. It would have been a waste of their money to hire a known American or British actor to play those roles. So local actors are used. That is nothing new in film productions. Even American films do this when they film abroad. They'll hire local actors for the roles in order to keep budgets down as flying in many actors would be cost prohibitive.

Also, "professional" really doesn't mean anything. If it's defined by training, well in my opinion Orlando Bloom is quite bad and yet he is a theater trained actor. If it's about experience, well Michael Wong has been acting for more than 20 years and his acting has always been rotten.

What it really is, is a simple question of acting ability.


It's not really about being cinematically-savvy.

The fact is you cannot, no matter how many times some like to claim otherwise, be a good judge of a person acting in a language you don't understand.

Chinese and Japanese audiences, who don't speak English, are not going to be as in sync with horrible acting in English as in English speaker and vice versa. If people could do this regardless of being able to understand another language or not, why weren't American audiences howling during the scene with the "Chinese" gangsters in The Departed like they were in Hong Kong? Instead, it goes on to win best picture and hailed by some as one of the best American films of the last decade.

Like I said, this whole matter is hardly unique to Asia. It happens in the West far more than some realize.

Brian T

Good to finally put a name to the face. Last time I looked at the CHEN ZHEN listing at IMDB, Mr. Dominik had not yet been included in the cast.

Seriously, though, I could take a few acting classes here in Toronto, call it "formal training", move to Shanghai where no one knows me, appear in a handful of productions simply by virtue of the fact I call myself an actor and I'm a handy white guy to have on call. I also acted in several school plays when I was at a "young age". None of this means I'm anything above an amateur and my talents might bear that out for the world to see, which is evidently the case with Mr. Dominik, lofty "Actor's Associations" notwithstanding.

I'm fear you may have fallen for Mr. Dominik's probably self-penned IMDB bio if you think he sounds "pretty professional". He also posted it at Weblo and MComet as well, and who knows where else. Just because he has a bio there -- when far more accomplished character actors in countries around the globe with regular, gainful employment and respected CV's get by quite handsomely without one -- doesn't automatically make him a "professional." Well, maybe to Chinese producers needing to be "impressed" before they hire yet another amateur gwailo for their latest production. Still, he's in the business there, so in my mind that does count for something, even if I still think his performing ability is extremely limited.

Dominik's performance in CHEN ZHEN is strictly amateur, like many who've gone into HK/Chinese features before him. But more power to him for having landed the gig in the first place. I'd probably leap at the chance too, if I lived over there. And then people on forums would be debating how crappy or fantastic I was!

Not sure why you're suggesting that I'm exaggerating Dominik's utterly average sore-thumb performance while somehow ignoring the dreadful non-Asian actors in other Chinese/Hong Kong films. I've been quite clear that I'm aware that this has been largely the norm -- save for a few exceptions -- in Hong Kong cinema for far too long. In 2010, frankly, I'm tired of it, and I know they can do better, and occasionally have! Some Chinese directors/producers seem to be able to see the value in a truly trained, professional, full-time actor, possibly even with marquee value for a boost in overseas marketability. Most, however, do not. And I've learned to live with it, even though on occasion I will bitch about it on a forum like this one.

Karl Dominik's presence in CHEN ZHEN did not ruin the movie for me. Never said it did. In fact, Andrew Lau's editing choices did more to harm the movie in my opinion, because they were unnecessary and relentless throughout. Dominik is only on screen for short scenes, albeit key ones, but the plot usually cuts away in good time.



And Karl Dominik's is limited, but you're right, it's enough to land him a gig or two in a country where no one will be able to tell the difference. Well, most probably can't anyways. Woe to those who can. Hopefully they get a giggle or two out of it, as did the mostly Chinese audience I saw the film with here in Toronto (something I mentioned in one of my first posts regarding this movie here). Seriously, the audience was approx. 70-75% Chinese. Chinese-speaking, most of them. The titters and were audible and the turning heads were visible. I'll admit they weren't physically "rolling in the aisles" or "howling" like they did at THE DEPARTED in Hong Kong, apparently, but the man's performance (i.e. when he WASN'T speaking) and his dubbing (i.e. when he theoretically WAS, even though the awful voice clearly belonged to someone else) had many in the audience visibly and audibly stirring. You could feel it, see it, and hear it.

So yeah, it happens all over the world. I just don't happen to like it. I don't mind being alone in that opinion, as I'm still capable of seeing beyond it to the better aspects of any such picture.

I'll give Mr. Dominik this: I've seen far, FAR worse performances by other amateur actors, especially in the many Hong Kong productions that have been shot here in the land of my birth. I'm almost embarrassed to be Canadian when I see my countrymen behaving so awfully on film (I can forgive the literal non-actors they employ, somewhat, but I know some of 'em are "trained" individuals). One film that immediately springs to mind is IT'S A MAD MAD MAD WORLD II. Ugh, the memories. So, kudos, Karl Dominik, you're quite a bit better than that!



Some can't, some can. Especially if you've seen hundreds, perhaps thousands of movies in that language. Performance is about so much more than just voice work, especially in a country and a city that both have a long histories of extensive post-dubbing (and yes, I know they shoot a lot of sync-sound stuff these days, but CHEN ZHEN is not one of those productions, for some strange reason). Understand enough about the craft of acting, and you can sense when something's amiss. Surely you of all people must have a modest grasp of this by now. From your writings at other sites, I'd gather your viewing history of Chinese movies eclipses that of everyone here, myself included.



I'll assume this wasn't directed at me in particular, as I'm well aware that this happens around the globe (as noted above). I'd put a stop to it everywhere if I could, but I'm not a miracle worker, so I put up with it and discuss it on the internet like everyone else.



I don't believe THE DEPARTED deserved the Academy Award, but I do believe, as many have suggested in the ensuing years, that conciliatory politics were at play, as they often are at the Oscars: "We've denied you so many times, we'll just give you one now . . . "

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Incidentally, Karl Dominik is actually from Burlington, Ontario, Canada, a mid-size community outside of Toronto. This puts him in the esteemed company of local lads Jim Carrey and Ryan Gosling. Perhaps he's a professional by osmosis!

The Running Man

My point there was that, in my opinion, the performances by the non-Asian actors in Legend of Chen Zhen are not as bad as you say. At least not as bad as to make an example out of it of bad non-Asians in Hong Kong films. The Black Cat example I mentioned is far, far worse than this. I hardly even remember the non-Asian actors in Legend of Chen Zhen which says they didn't call my attention.

Whether or not Dominik has lied or not about his credentials doesn't change the fact that the term "professional" doesn't mean much when it comes to an art like acting. I've given the example of Orlando Bloom. Bloom is a theater trained actor and he has that to say that he is a "professional" actor. In fact, that was the reason he was hired in Elizabethtown because Cameron Crowe wanted a theater trained actor for that role. In Crowe's opinion it seems, Bloom is a fine actor. From where I stand, I would've thought he was nothing but some fashion model plucked out and put in films. He's barely average, I think.

It is true that there are certain things one can judge despite difference in language like crying which is universal but it's a different story when it comes to dialog. There are subtleties when one is speaking that can only be picked up by those who can understand the language. Can you tell the difference between a North and South Korean accent? I can't and if I watch a Korean movie where a South Korean actor is playing a Northerner I would have no way of judging his/her performance.

I know that Martin Scorsese has seen many Asian movies. He even named the Taiwanese film "A Borrowed Life" as one of the best movies of the 90s. If that is the case, how was not able to tell that Chinese spoken in The Departed was bad or at the very least the incorrect dialect for supposedly Mainland gangsters? Well, it seems that despite his experience in watching many Asian movies he cannot tell and I would imagine similar cases in the East.

This doesn't excuse it though. Surely, they should hire experts in this to help them ensure that everything is on the up and up but they don't. However, the problem happens on both sides and that's my main point.


Well, thank you for thinking that. From what I read from you here, I don't think you're any slouch at all. It's great to see someone else out there with this much passion for these movies.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you aren't entitled to thinking that the performances by the non-Asians in Legend of Chen Zhen were horrible and to post about it. What prompted me to reply was the fact that your posts honed in on this as if it was an issue exclusively with Hong Kong films.

The biggest problem that is exclusive to Hong Kong films that I really believe should be made more of deal of by people out there is the low quality of English subtitle translations. Sure, there has been improvements compared to back in the day as there has been some surprisingly well made English translations that have come out here and there from Hong Kong companies but there are still many rotten subs coming out of them. It's an embarrassment that an Asian B movie like Sasori got a far better English translation by its company than any of the Hong Kong English subtitles made for Johnnie To's movies. In fact, I'll go a step further and just say that many supposed Chinese film fans are probably not that much of fans of these movies as they claim. They may watch a lot of them but I don't think they actually respect them.

When that whole issue with Magnolia's DVD of Let The Right One In came out, there was practically a universal internet uproar because the subtitles Magnolia used on the DVD were said to be bad and worse than the ones shows in theaters. This was so much of an outcry that Magnolia responded to it.

What about Chinese films though? Harvey Wenstein has released movies like Infernal Affairs, Shaolin Soccer, Iron Monkey and Hero with flat out MADE UP subtitles. Literally, the words you are reading on his releases of those movies are not what is being said at all in the original dialog. Where was the internet uproar about this? No one even buzzed about this. No one said anything at all. It's one thing to have an inferior translation and it's another to just blatantly make up anything that comes to your head and call it a translation no matter how disconnected it is to the Chinese dialog.

In fact, go ahead and complain about this on forums like this and the feedback you're most likely to get is being called a "whiner" and a "fanboy" which I know you have experienced yourself. Yet, there was an entire internet squad at the ready for Let The Right One In getting good subtitles and they got it and yet Hong Kong films despite how popular they seem still have the dark cloud of bad English subtitles hovering over them to this day. That is an exclusive problem with Chinese films right there.

Yeah, that's definitely why it happened and that's also why I don't care for award shows anymore.

I wanted to put this last since my reply here will be digressing from the other comments about non-Asian actors and their acting.

Since I saw the movie, I have to say that I disagree with you. Yeah, it was quite lame but the blame I submit really goes to Gordan Chan's script. Concept wise, it's fantastic. It's a period/superhero/political espionage/martial arts movie. Sounds like a winner to me in theory but Gordan Chan's script doesn't explore any of those aspects fully or take advantage of it. It's a half-assed script that comes across to me as a rough draft at best. I don't think there was really any way to make a great movie out of it no matter who the director was.

Here's the thing though. I don't think Legend of Chen Zhen was any worse a movie than Ip Man 1 & 2 which, like Legend of Chen Zhen, I don't particularly care for aside from the action. Ip Man 1 & 2 were pretty bad scripts but the reason I think there has been a voice of disappointment by many online over Legend of Chen Zhen and not the Ip Man movies has to do with what I noted about Chan's script. Unlike the Ip Man 1 & 2, this one was aiming higher so the fall may be felt greater whereas the Ip Man 1 & 2 were essentially no different than the same kind of martial arts Chinese nationalistic propaganda fluff seen in the 70s which many I suppose have gotten used to.

JHosk

Has anyone seen John Woo's Reign of Assassins yet ?? I just pre-ordered the bluray (it's out on the 25th). Looks promising.

Dr Mabuse

Yes.

It's one of the best Wuxia films in recent years, just fantastic. So many things to like about this film.

Brian T

Sorry for the late reply, Running Man. Half forgot about this thread because I posted late at night last time, and half avoided revisiting because I figured there'd be a sudden collective upswing in favour of Mr. Dominik.

I appreciate your response. I must say that while I've never rushed out to see any of his films, I do think Orlando Bloom is a better overall performer than Mr. Dominik (not suggesting you were comparing, but hey). Admittedly, that probably comes from having had better opportunities, better connections, whatever, and not having to pay the bills in a foreign country where he was largely a novelty available for any gig that came along. Bloom's perfs have never made me stop following the plot or his character to think about anything he's doing particularly poorly, whereas Dominik's did.

Even with CHEN ZHEN's lousy Chinese dubbing, Dominik was clearly--to me at least--operating at the level of lightly seasoned dinner theatre, nothing more. And in fairness, the filmmakers were probably satisfied enough that he photographed reasonably well.



Agreed. Many Canadians in Hong Kong movies shot here are barely actors on the self-proclaimed level of a Mr. Dominik, nor did they really sell themselves as such (they couldn't get away with it here anyways, whereas he can in China).

In fact, some were little more than local extras who lucked into speaking gigs in flicks by visiting productions that didn't really care about authenticity of non-Chinese in their casts (hey, just like Andrew Lau!). Examples can be found in the opening scenes of the Olivia Cheng starrer THE WILD ONES. I think I already mentioned IT'S A MAD MAD MAD WORLD II, which I firmly believe trumps your BLACK CAT by a long shot: the gwailos in that were surely friends, neighbours and colleagues of the dual-citizenship Chinese cast and crew members, and were probably easily recruited.



Yes. It came to me only after watching a LOT of Korean cinema over a number of years, including many documentaries about the North and its people. I can also--usually--tell when South Korean actors are doing "mock" North Korean and rural dialects versus "straight" ones. In the case of the former, it's generally obvious in both the exaggerated physical and vocal attributes of the performance (much as it can be in western films, i.e. the "redneck", for example); other times it's more subtle and a sign of attention to detail on the part of the performer or director or writer. I'm assuming it was the mocking performances that made it easier for me to hear the sincere ones. But again, it IS possible, but not something for which I could type out hard and fast rules.

On a related note, I recently asked someone at YouTube about the English title (irrelevant to this conversation) of a Mandarin martial arts movie clip they'd posted and they were keen to know how I could tell it was Mandarin when they assumed it was Cantonese (I think because it had some Hong Kong regulars in it). In other words, this YouTube user, evidently a big martial arts movie buff who has hundreds of clips on his channel, couldn't distinguish the two main versions of Chinese, when to me (and presumably you and others here) they're entirely different beasts. As such, that YouTube user is not likely someone I'd trust to rate performances in these pictures (not saying that's what he does, but if he did, and I found out he couldn't at least distinguish Mandarin from Cantonese, that'd be the foundation for skepticism).

If one can first make the effort to appreciate the differences in languages, then dialects, and one immerses oneself in enough cinema/television/culture of one group (Cantonese) or the other (Mandarin), or better yet both, one is on his/her way to being better-equipped to smoke out weak performers from strong. At least that's been my experience.

BAKERY AMOUR just raced through my head all of a sudden, but I digress . . .



Agreed in principle, but I still feel that the quality of the Asian performers (regardless of the fact they were speaking the wrong dialect) was more professional in THE DEPARTED, than the non-Asian performers in CHEN ZHEN. And that's where I deduct EXTRA points from the Chinese film. But perhaps I can't blame them when the available talent pool in Shanghai appears to consist of folks like Mr. Dominik, who anywhere else would be advised to keep his day job.



It's a sickness sometimes. It really is. My thanks to you as well.

On your comments about subtitle translations, I wholeheartedly agree with you, even as I long ago developed the ability to "fill in the blanks" in my head as I watch most Hong Kong movies, a task that gets a little easier the more I watch and the more cognizant I become of (and here's where I go full circle) the language, the dialects, and the subtleties of performances (and performers) in a language that's not my own.



This is a VERY good point, and one I've seen reinforced at various internet forums I've perused (but never joined) over the years. The enjoyment of the films seems to be there -- that goes without saying -- but there's often an underlying contempt, intentional or otherwise, that suggest many professed fans see Hong Kong films as considerably more disposable than films from other regions, or worse, as novelty items because they (the fans) limit themselves to specific genres, namely action/martial arts/wuxia and maybe horror and never get the full scope of the city's output, then and now.

The poor subtitle translations only make matters worse in my opinion, because too often they serve to reinforce the perception held bymany that the films are more akin to throwaway drive-in fare than the rich, populist, metropolitan cinematic tradition they collectively are, that they're somehow less "important" than those produced by more "respected" industries around the world, including Mainland China's. "Another bloated, overproduced, nationalistic wuxia epic? Well, that's all the rage! The Hong Kong youth ensemble romances of Patrick Kong? Well those are just . . . wait, who dat?"



I think more people were bitching about this than you suggest (I certainly recall reading plenty of carping at various forums, product listings, blogs), but I think everyone ultimately knew they weren't dealing with Magnolia. They were dealing with the Weinstein company, and in particular a couple of British imports who had no trouble defending the subs, the cuts, the retitlings, the inproper languages, the incorrect aspect ratios, etc. because, well, it's not like these films were important, you know, they were just cool. Slap on a commentary dropping names, spotting locations and reinforcing the notion that the only thing people apparently need to love about Hong Kong cinema are the martial arts, and you're good to go! When it comes to disrespecting Asian cinema at the corporate level, nowhere did the act seem more sanctioned than at Chez Harv, despite the occasional home run DVD (just so I soften any potential backlash).



True enough about the treatment afforded someone who complains of dire subtitles on Hong Kong films at discussion forums, in blogs or even in product reviews (a la Amazon), versus those who complained about it on a single release of a "prestige" arthouse darling like LET THE RIGHT ONE IN. That's a perfect example of the hypocrisy inherent in internet fandom. I think this extends right back to the early days of Hong Kong cinema first making inroads into the west with that awkward, atrocious dubbing ("You killed my . . . . . . brother! Now . . . you . . . mustdienow!"). It's so rarely been given a fair shake, but wishing that it would be seems to violate a status quo that fans are simply comfortable with after so many years of it being the norm.



The script is definitely a problem. I didn't give it enough attention in my previous ramblings. The concept is loaded with subtext that isn't explored in the finished product the way the audience should be expecting it to be, but that's almost de rigueur for Andrew Lau when he's not working with Alan Mak (who really, really needs to direct more often). That fantastic opening sequence could have been expanded into a compelling feature in its own right. Seriously, who honestly knew much, if anything, about the Chinese labourers toiling on the frontlines of Europe during World War I? I went home and read more about it the very same night. I love it when a movie inspires me to do that, but unfortunately that sequence is only the powerful opening salvo in a very pedestrian piece of work. "Rough draft" is apt.