Jay G.

I don't think that the point is that you Must Absolutely purchase the version with the best subtitles, and that purchasing a different version makes you a bad person.

The point is that subtitles are important, but are barely mentioned in reviews or comparisons of different DVD editions of films, if at all. Criterion's the Killer may be a bad example, since it's OOP and expensive to buy, but if given two versions near the same price, it'd be nice if one could know if one of them has better subtitles, to make a better purchase decision.

Jay G.

There are, but they're rare. And like I said, the majority seem to be Sony releases that are mastered with worldwide distribution in mind, since these discs are released in identical versions in other countries (which is why people can play the "R3" Superbits on their R1 DVD players.

Which is why it's more profitable to sell the international rights than just allow imports.
I don't think it's ethnocentric to want subtitles in your native language. What I thought was incorrect was your inference that a distributor intended their DVD to be imported simply because it has English subtitles on it. That's ignoring all the other English speakers in the world, and especially the English speakers in the country of release that the DVD was most likely intended for.

If a DVD was an easily available import, it'd be in those stores, much like how Suncoast often has the Tai Seng imports of Hong Kong DVDs. A local video store did have those films and Hero available for rent on import DVD while they were playing in theaters. Those DVDs were almost always checked out, even the R3 DVDs. It didn't have an import DVD of Ong Bak though, because of the lack of English subtitles.

You may scoff at the posibility of "stolen" audiences, but US studios and distributors do worry. Sony blamed the low box office of House of Flying Daggers and Kung Fu Hustle partly on the availability of imports with subtitles. Sony even went so far as to remove the English subtitles and dub from the R3 DVD from Crounching Tiger, Hidden Dragon due to concerns that importing would hurt the theatrical performace of that film.

There's also the factor that most Hong Kong subtitles are made on the fast and cheap, usually using someone who's not a native English speaker. So a combination of lack of ability, lack of resources, and lack of time can contribute to the quality of many subtitles.

natesfortune

Absolutely correct.

And I wouldn't advocate buying a $100 DVD over the HKL because of the subtitles either, unless you can afford it.

But I do think it's ridiculous to "trade up" from the Criterion to the HKL as so many seem to have done, simply because the HKL has a better picture - as if that's the only thing that matters. By trading out those versions, the better movie is being traded for the inferior movie simply because we're all DVD fanatics(rightfully so) and have this idea that picture quality is all that matters.

I'd say if you already have the Criterion, or can get it easily and affordably, then it is by far the better version than the HKL, regardless of having lesser picture quality - it's the better version because the translation makes the film so much better than the the translation on the HKL.

And this thread is here for people who care about subtitles - hopefully we can trade information on subtitle translations - especially on new DVDs that may be "replacing" an older version. Reviewers don't give the new subtitle translations a second glance, crowing on about picture quality and extras while ignoring a change that impacts the viewing experience more than any other new change on a disc.

Hopefully we can exchange information from each other and avoid spending money on movies that may have a better-looking picture, but movies we are dissapointment by when we finally get them home because the new translation is worse than the old disc we already have.

Tutut

When movies has no interest anymore you sometimes find a cheap international release with lots of languages and subs.
For example:
Menus

Subs


I don't understand the relation between high quality (superbits) and region codes, could you be more please.

I don't agree with you on this, if people heard about a good movie they can't watch at their local theatre, because distributors decided to release it later, they try to get the DVD from another region. English is main language used to communicate but people prefer their native language first and then the main language in the region which is not automatically english. In Asia, I could understand (for historical, cultural reason) why the english subs for HK, but I wonder why I find english subs in the korean release of a japanese film when there are none in the japanese one. It's a problem of respecting the copyright laws to me, which is a big issue in Asia.

It's easy for editors and distributors to put the pressure on stores to stop them selling import DVDs if they're rightholders for the country or the region.

It's difficult in Asia to do some high quality work knowing that 75% of pirate DVDs come from this region, I guess editors try to lose the less as possible.
That's why the work of the local editor/distributor is important for quality of packaging, image, sound and subs.

Josh Z

He's not relating high quality to region codes. The point is that Sony (the studio that makes Superbits) does not author separate discs for Region 1 and Region 3. They only author one disc with a full set of subtitles for either American or Asian viewers, region code that disc for both 1 and 3, and sell the same disc in both markets. It's a method of cutting expenses, so that they don't have to waste money authoring separate discs with separate subtitle options in more than one Region.

That's why you can buy a "Region 3" Superbit and it will play in a Region 1 DVD player.

Tutut

Thanks for the precisions.

Zenigata

Great thread. Truly. I'm always complaining to my friends about how comparison sites will have aneurisms over a "soft" patch on a small part of a single frame, or some such, but will COMPLETELY overlook horrid subtitles. Then again, the quality of writing on a lot (that serves as a nice example. A LOT IS TWO WORDS) of these sites isn't too hot. I just dislike how everyone seems more concerned with presentation minutia than actual filmic content (which comes through via subs). That's not to say that I don't appreciate a site telling me that a certain edition is pale and washed out and another is rich and vibrant, I just wish we had a site that put greater emphasis on content comparisons. I feel like I sift through every DVD site on the web when I'm trying to buy a certain version of a film and, if I'm lucky, I'll get a paragraph of text in total that vaguely addresses subtitles. As those Killer quotes indicate, knowledge of the original language isn't needed to tell when a line sounds poorly worded, extremely simplified, or just plain silly. Obviously it's a great aid, but anyone can tell with some of those lines. I'd rather have the Criterion edition, honestly. Ah, this discussion reminds me of a good example of inaccurate subs. It might be lost on people unfamiliar with the film, but oh well. A few weeks ago my Japanese cinema class watched Shohei Imamura’s Vengeance is Mine. The main character is confronting his Christian father and wife in regards to an attraction between the two. He says to his father, “God? You worship your daughter’s ass!” It is translated as something akin to, “Forget God, you’re into your daughter.” There’s another example later in the film in which the father is talking to the daughter about how the daughter should leave, and he’ll just move to an old folks home and sit in the sun drooling. Her reply, “I’ll lick the spittle off your face” becomes “I’ll come everyday and whip your chin” in the subs. Anyway, just a few examples that serve to significantly downplay what is being said. Of course, you check out the comparison on dvdbeaver.com and there is no mention of subs whatsoever. Obviously they can’t be expected to know the original language, but the spelling errors and awkward phrasings should jump right out.

So what do you guys say, want to ban together and start a sub-centric website?

natesfortune

I'm in!

Great idea.

Tutut

People are more concerned in countries which don't use dubbing, I think of scandinavian countries, Netherlands in Europe or Japan in Asia.
Some links about translation problems:

http://herbs.tsukaeru.jp/english_top.html
read the comments on this:
http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=newsmaker&id=266
What about regional differences:
http://www.blogthings.com/amenglishdialecttest/
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...393037,00.html
And the last one, my favourite (Shangai bootleg of "Revenge of the Sith"),
take a deep breath before reading :
http://winterson.com/2005/06/episode...e-of-west.html
Better than the famous engrish «All your base are belong to us».
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engrish

Josh Z

I received an email complaint about my House of Fury review that is pertinent to this discussion. I wish the writer had started a forum thread so that the issue could be discussed by others, but he sent an email instead. I don't want to post someone's personal email in public without their permission, so I'll just say that the gist of the complaint was that because I don't speak Cantonese I have no business commenting on the quality of the subtitle translation.

Here was my response: