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So, I bought a Pioneer 363......

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So, I bought a Pioneer 363......

Old 02-13-04, 09:13 PM
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So, I bought a Pioneer 363......

Okay, so I purchased a Pioneer 363 from HKFlix on their ebay auction and paid about $15 ($190.00 - includes insurance) less than I normally would by going through their website.

I went for it due to the price and the look. However, I did have my eye on the JVC 602. So I contacted Jeff at HKFlix and he told me he would switch my order for the 363 for the 602 for $20 more dollars.

Right now, the JVC 602 is at 165.00 on ebay (on their auction). He offered this to me by going with their By It Now price which is $185.00.

My question to all of you is this. Should I bite and take it for the extra $20 or just stick with my "decent" (his words) player.

I know in the end, the decision is mine, but I am looking for opinions.

Last edited by Bill Geiger; 02-19-04 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 02-13-04, 09:29 PM
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I would probably pick up one of the Toshiba's and save myself $100. But if I were you, i'd ask for a refund, then bid on the JVC.

Last edited by DrGerbil; 02-13-04 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 02-13-04, 10:16 PM
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Nah, ain't that simple.. if it were, might be an option. I actually like the Pioneer look and their quality is well known.

Toshiba brand, I have never owned anything from them.

I have already owned a cheap player and I got what I paid for. I won't do that again.

Thanks for the feedback though.
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Old 02-14-04, 01:40 AM
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Bill

Can't go wrong with Pioneer or JVC.
I suggest JVC, as I bought the NA-70 & love it!
I totally recommend HKflix & Jeff...great guy!

Good luck,
Barry
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Old 02-14-04, 09:24 AM
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Barry,

I agree that you can't go wrong. Personally, the Extra that the 602 adds for me would be DVD-A which I do't think I would ever use. Jeff did say JVC was better "somehow" (my quote) in Pal to NTSC conversion in progressive scan.

Overall, I think I'll stick with the Pioneer.
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Old 02-15-04, 03:38 PM
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What's the difference bewteen the 602 and the N50/55 for the same price???
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Old 02-15-04, 03:49 PM
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Looks like just the DVD-Audio.
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Old 02-15-04, 09:12 PM
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hmmm, but then why are they the same price??? Weird.
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Old 02-15-04, 11:17 PM
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Bill,

Don't know about in your part of the world, but over here in the UK, Toshiba DVD players have a superb reputation as producing some of the very top players and sometimes beat Pioneer in group reviews. Price is immaterial to this it would seem
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Old 02-17-04, 09:06 AM
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The player arrived this morning! That was fast! Looks great!!
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Old 02-17-04, 05:55 PM
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Well, in testing out the player, the pictures goes off and on when viewing Region 1, Region 2 PAL and Region 4 PAL. So far, the only problem. I am in the process of contacting HKFlix about the problem. My R2 NTSC copy of Ronin UE plays flawlessly.
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Old 02-17-04, 06:10 PM
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A problem and what a surprise, it was from hkflix. I've heard some horror stories and had friends' order with bad experiences. I guess the deal was too good to pass up, eh?
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Old 02-17-04, 06:32 PM
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The "fall-out" if you will only occured on PAL discs at the start. For the Region 1's... it was throughout (well..I could only take so much). Oh, my Taxi 2 R3 NTSC disc played flawlessly.

Waiting to hear back from them. We'll see.

I have no doubt the situation will work itself out. HKFlix will hopefully come through for me.

Edit: I am sure I am pissing them off. Not my intention.

Last edited by Bill Geiger; 02-18-04 at 12:00 AM.
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Old 02-18-04, 10:59 AM
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Here is everything that was discussed in another thread:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DrGerbil
[quote]
Originally posted by Bill Geiger
Looks like I should have done the same. My Pioneer goes in and out on R1, R2 & R4 discs at the beginning of the film (opening credits). With the R1 Wonderland, it did it throughout the movie. I asked to switch for a different player and they said no go since it was opened. How was I supposed to know it wouldn't work right? They are trying to figure out the problem but looks like I am going to have to deal with the PAL problem. BS if you ask me if I have to.
[quote]

Is it a flickering effect or does it go to black? You could try searching the net to see if others have had similar problems and to find a solution, though I bet you've already tried that...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
18-04 12:26 AM
Bill Geiger

It goes black and then comes back. Sometimes it rolls as if it is doing a VCR type of "tracking" if you know what I mean.

I really hope everything comes out good on this.

What burns my ass is that they state this:

We've modified this player via hardware and firmware to play any region DVD. This player will also correctly convert PAL to NTSC in the proper aspect ratio, allowing you, for example, to play European Region-2 PAL DVDs on your American NTSC television.

Yes, it will play it, but obviously not properly. Atleast this not this one that I have.

Last edited by Bill Geiger on 02-18-04 at 12:36 AM

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02-18-04 12:47 AM
DrGerbil

WOW! So it could be the hardware or the firmware. Since the machine was modded, shouldn't they be obliged to accept returns? Shoddy craftsmanship is not your fault, it's theirs! The flickering makes me think the problem is with whatever converts the pal signal to ntsc. Since the disk plays, its probably not a firmware issue. How good are you with electronics? Perhaps you could take a look under the hood...what else do you have to lose at this point?

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02-18-04 12:54 AM
Bill Geiger

Well, here is what was said to me just a few minutes ago:

My email

So basically, I am stuck in regards to the way the player plays the PAL discs, correct? If so, I have to say that stinks. I figured, I pay $200 for a player and expect it to work as it says it does on your site and auctions.

Bill

Their reply

If our site or auction has incorrect information, please let me know. I mentioned to you before we shipped that the JVC has better PAL conversion capabilities. Like I said, if there is a defect, we will fix it. PAL conversion is a tricky process that involves downconverting higher resolution and lower frame rate per second PAL into NTSC. It is very complex and some chips simply do a better job than others. I made that clear to you before we shipped and you declined the offer of the JVC.

...and as I said before...since I opened the box...no exchanges can be made...they can only look at the player themselves and see if there is a problem. I did inquire about an exchange for another player but that was a no go.

As far as looking under the hood...I wouldn't know where to begin.

Last edited by Bill Geiger on 02-18-04 at 12:58 AM

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02-18-04 01:07 AM
DrGerbil

Originally posted by Bill Geiger
Well, here is what was said to me just a few minutes ago:

Like I said, if there is a defect, we will fix it. PAL conversion is a tricky process that involves downconverting higher resolution and lower frame rate per second PAL into NTSC. It is very complex and some chips simply do a better job than others. I made that clear to you before we shipped and you declined the offer of the JVC.
They say they will fix the defect, but they refuse to give you a refund? He even uses the qualifier 'if' to imply that yours is not defective. He wants to make it seem as if the player may not, in fact, be 'broken'. The last line puts all the blame on you, as if you could have envisioned such shoddy workmanship. If they installed it, they are obliged to at least fix it and pay for it to be shipped back to them. If they refuse...well, what you do then depends on how civil you choose to be after paying $200 for a broken player.


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02-18-04 01:13 AM
Bill Geiger

Well, he offered me the JVC 602 for $20 more and I declined. I figured why bother since they both convert PAL to NTSC PROPERLY. But I take it they mean aspect ratio only. Not the fact that the movie blinks off and on. That I guess is supposed to be a given. Like I said, it is BS really.

I don't care if the skipping on some discs are at the beginning during the opening only or on others throughout the movie. There should be ZERO problems with a new player. End of story!

I'll be the first to admit I am anal when it comes to many things, especially on a higher dollar item, such as this. Is that so wrong?

All I want is a working player or my money back. It is that simple. Hell, keep the $5 I paid extra for insurance.

Last edited by Bill Geiger; 02-18-04 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 02-18-04, 11:04 AM
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Okay.... so now It appears I am stuck with the problem. It appears that they feel they can stand behind an email sent to me stating that I might want to consider a more expensive player (JVC 602).

The lastest email I sent and their reply:

You are absolutely right. You also stated that as far as you knew, no complaints have come in regarding this player, correct? Look, I am not trying to be rude or anything. All I would like is the player to play properly. I am sure you would want the same. You have been EXTEMELY nice and helpful. You are doing your best..that is all I can ask.

I just didn't expect a jumpy picture several times during a movie.

Bill


Their reply:

Hi Bill,

Yes, we havenít had any complaints on the 363. In our tests, the 363 did not perform as well as mediamatics machines like the JVCs and Malatas. Weíve had several complaints on the 563 from people who ďupgradedĒ from a Malata player. I think if people donít have any comparison to base things on, they donít tend to complain. Iím surprised you had such a great experience with the cyberhome as that machine did extremely poorly in our tests with bad contrast, overscan, and progressive output. Thereís nothing I can do about PAL conversion on the 363. Thatís a factor of the chipset. You may possibly get better results if you output in Progressive. Mediamatics machines perform much, much better in a progressive environment. However, if youíre having consistent serious problems with NTSC playback, that is an issue we need to address.
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Old 02-18-04, 11:27 AM
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Here is my response. I personally think I was very nice.

Well, I guess I will have to see what happens on your end. It is a shame that you sell a machine that doesn't work properly (regarding PAL issues) and won't resolve that problem to make the "customer" happy. All I want is a machine to play PAL discs.

I asked for a refund, that weas denied because you don't take back open merchandise. Well, isn't opening it the only way to find out if it works right? I would gladly send the machine back at my own expense.

I am now extremely disappointed. You know, if I walked into a Walmart of any other store and said: "This item doesn't work properly, I would like my money back." Most of the item, there would be no issue. However, when I explain that the product isn't to my satisfaction and the reason is due to the unwatchablity caused by a machine that you sell and told basically that "I am stuck with it" is unacceptable.

Did you try and get me to get the JVC 602, yes you did. Did I decline, yes I did. I personally thought you were just trying to get a couple more bucks out of me, that is all. That is why I stuck with my purchase of the 363.

Now, had your ebay auction stated something regarding the Pioneer's jumping in and out of the picture on PAL discs, then most certainly I would have not made the purchase. All you stated to me was that the JVC performed better which I took for, a better picture. Not the fact that the JVC can actually show you the entire movie, unlike the Pioneer.

Sincerely,
Bill Geiger
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Old 02-18-04, 12:19 PM
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Wow, Bill. That is absolutely horrible. Personally, I think you are being WAAAY too nice on this issue. I have the 602, and if I would have noticed this thread earlier would have tried to lean you that way. It is a great player.

This situation makes me know never to deal with HKFlix. I bought my player at JVBdigital and yes it was a little bit more than HKFlix, but it was obviously worth it.

Bill, kudos on your patience.
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Old 02-18-04, 12:23 PM
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Thanks. I am being nice because I don't want to come off as a dick to anyone. I am not trying to be one. All I want is a working player. I would gladly do an even exchange for a JVC of equal value and eat the shipping charges to send it back to them.

Worst case, I'll sell it back on ebay at a loss though I would prefer them to swap me players.
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Old 02-18-04, 01:53 PM
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Everything indicates that your player is defective, especially if it's happening on NTSC and PAL material. If they offer a swap one for one, then do so. Pal conversions works or it doesnt, there's no inbetween. Anything else is a hardware defect that needs to be addressed as a warranty issue. I hate to sound like a dick, but really, a toshiba would have been cheaper, better or equal quality, and easier to return to best buy or what have you. I'm sure you'll be able to work something out as a warranty issue, as it's clear your player IS defective.
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Old 02-18-04, 02:20 PM
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No, I didn't take what you said to be "dickish" at all. I agree 100% with your opinion. But, I bought what I did and have to stick with that. I agree the player is defective. Haven't heard back from them yet today. Well, see what is up then. Hopefully they'll be nice and come to a solution.
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Old 02-18-04, 02:50 PM
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The saga continues.... hopefully with a non-violent ending.
I think they came to their conclusion the day you bought their player. They are just trying to be subtle about it so they don't piss you off. If your player does ntsc, and has trouble with pal, they will not accept a return. Well, that doesn't make any sense. hkflix should take it back because THEY are the ones that modified the bloody thing! The chip is NOT supposed to cause flickering. If other people complained about it, they shouldn't ship it with that chip. So either way, they are in the wrong. Damn, stupid sales representatives piss me off...

Last edited by DrGerbil; 02-18-04 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 02-18-04, 04:58 PM
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I agree DG....no word back yet. Like I said previously, I just want this resolved in a fair way. I don't want to come off as rude..but impatient...I may be.
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Old 02-19-04, 02:48 AM
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Still no word back but, here is an email I sent giving an update on things.

Just some further information for you. I tested all of my PAL discs. Many of them worked perfectly. However, the ones that did not were Touchstone Pictures discs.

Enemy Of The State R2 PAL
Romy & Michelle's High School Reunion R4 PAL
10 Things I Hate About You R4 PAL
Armegeddon R4 PAL
Ransom R4 PAL

At the very start of the movie, the picture flashed in and out. The same occured on my Region 1 Count Of Monte Cristo (Touchstone). Right at the beginning the flashing in and out occured. I also tested my Toy Story R1 (Disney) and the same happened at the beginning. This is to add to the other discs previously mentioned:

Wonderland R1 (Lions Gate)
Stoned Age R1 (maybe even R0 - Trimark)

Thought you might like to know.

Bill
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Old 02-19-04, 03:18 AM
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So it's just Touchstone DVDs... and Disney... and you aren't hooked up through component video cables, but you have it set to progressive output? It's most likely a setting I think. Perhaps it is flashing because it is auto detecting or some such thing. I don't know. I don't know if it would've made any difference, but I would've suggested going with JVC because it had the mediamatics chip and I was unfamiliar with the Pioneer... maybe I should've said something.
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Old 02-19-04, 10:44 AM
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I am not running in Progressive Scan at all.
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