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OK, I really am that naive' - what IS the difference between ...?

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OK, I really am that naive' - what IS the difference between ...?

Old 07-14-03, 04:07 PM
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OK, I really am that naive' - what IS the difference between ...?

My track record for posts stinks. I thought I found a place to purchase DVD's from an International vendor and everyone screamed 'Bootleg!'

Is it a bootleg if you are buying it from overseas? I know the whole site isn't bogus because I bought a deer processing DVD from a little company in the UP through them - and they have a lot of little vendors selling other non-DVD items.

When is an International PAL DVD bootleg and when is it not? This will probably get moved, but since I was gone when the thread was locked I can't very well find out there.
Old 07-14-03, 04:14 PM
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Not everything is a bootleg that comes from over seas. But as your last thread indicated, they were selling dvds of films that were still in the theater. Check the international forum in regards to legit sites from overseas.

Also, before you go buying a PAL disc..make sure you have the dvd player that can play it. Many regions in this world... not all dvd players can play them. Hope I helped a little bit.
Old 07-14-03, 04:52 PM
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Bootleg (verb):

To produce, distribute, or sell without permission or illegally.

Bootleg (noun):

A product that is illicitly produced, distributed, or sold.

Whether it came from overseas or not, unless it is approved by the studio who owns the rights, it's a bootleg. As Bill stated, several of those movies haven't even left the theatre yet.
Old 07-14-03, 05:10 PM
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If a web site sells movies still in the theaters, I would bet that the rest of their dvds are bootlegs also. Is this a ceratin web site that sells the original Star Wars Trilogy dvds? If so, all of their dvds are bootlegs!!! I would rather spend the extra $5 and get the real thing.
Old 07-14-03, 09:03 PM
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You guys aren't specific enough. I bought "Bend It Like Beckham" from cd-wow.net three weeks before it opened in theaters in the USA. My copy is entirely legit and completely authorized by the studio, it is R2 and PAL.
Old 07-14-03, 09:31 PM
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That's a very rare case of a film that opened in the UK before it did in America. The majority of films open in the US first. Bend It Like Beckham is a British-produced film. 28 Days is also released on DVD there in R2 because it's already completed its theatrical run. The previous posters were referring to the common release pattern of movies, not the special instances of foreign/import films coming to America long after they've run in another country.
Old 07-14-03, 09:44 PM
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journeywoman - A good hint if something is a bootleg is if it is listed as "all-region" or "region 0". Very few legit DVDs are region code free. Chinese subtitles also hints at bootleg very strongly. This is from an anime site on how to spot bootlegs - anime is very prone to bootlegging:




It should also be noted that recently DVD pirates have become more sophisticated using higher print quality and holographic stickers on their packaging, similar to official licensing stickers, to add an extra level of authenticity to their counterfeit products.

Like official companies, some counterfeit DVD firms even include their e-mail address in the small print along with other contact details. If they are using Yahoo, Hotmail or similar free e-mail account you can be certain they are DVD pirates, after all what sort of entertainment company would use a free e-mail account instead of a more high profile domain name?

A title that proves popular bootleg title is the "Archives of Studio Ghibli" DVD set (which is not to be confused with the official Archives of Studio Ghibli Artbooks). No legally licensed equivalent of this currently exists.

Many pirate anime DVDs have certain factors in common, they are almost always set to All Regions or Region 0. They have Chinese subtitles as well as the Japanese audio track, and many often have an English subtitle track which will vary in quality and accuracy of translation. This type of pirate DVD is not uncommon on on-line auction sites such as eBay.

Very few officially licensed DVDs sold in Taiwan, Hong Kong and other Region 3 countries have English and Cantonese/Chinese subtitles, this includes "Spirited Away", "My Neighbour Totoro" and "Kiki's Delivery Service", which do have official releases (with English subtitles) but are still being pirated. More details about these titles can be found at Nausicaa.net.
http://www.digital.anime.org.uk/piratefaq.html#dvd
Old 07-14-03, 10:04 PM
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Thanks for the info (and for not flaming me).

I am trying to contribute and not just take from the site. I'm bound to find something sooner or later.

Old 07-14-03, 10:33 PM
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Originally posted by GreenMonkey
A good hint if something is a bootleg is if it is listed as "all-region" or "region 0". Very few legit DVDs are region code free.
Most of the legit DVDs produced in Hong Kong are all-region (code free) so that is not necessarily an indication of a bootleg.
Old 07-14-03, 11:25 PM
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Marty..I was about to say the same thing. Like I said, anything coming from the International forum's store list is legit.. region 0, 2, 3, or 4. Plain and simple.

As far as Bend It Like Beckham or 28 Days... yes, they are exception to the rule. However, if those films are listed as Region 0, I would always question it!
Old 07-15-03, 12:40 AM
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there are lots of region 0 dvds that aren't bootlegs.

just use your common sense.
Old 07-15-03, 02:06 AM
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Originally posted by marty888
Most of the legit DVDs produced in Hong Kong are all-region (code free) so that is not necessarily an indication of a bootleg.
That's true, but many American films are region coded in Hong Kong. If everything a seller has is all-region coded, then they are most likely selling bootlegs.
Old 07-15-03, 08:47 AM
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Journeywoman,

I would avoid sites that offer multiple sellers unless you are confident about what you are buying. This is essentially the same as ebay, but with a store front. If you order something, and it turns out to be questionable, you will probably go through a hassle to send it back.

Your best bet is to stick to the "dvdtalk approved" vendors, and I'm not necessarily talking about the ones recommended by Geoff. I'm talking about the feedback in the store forum. Just because your original post got a "bootleg, bootleg" response, you shouldn't feel discouraged. At least people were alerting you to the fact you were potentially buying something inferior.

Sometimes your best move is to research an item and see if it appears on other sites with a photo. For example, about a year ago, I found "Johnny Suede" on a site called Movie Doctor. However, I could not find the item anywhere else. There were no technical specs, just a picture, seemingly from the cover. Based on this, I avoided the DVD.

Good luck!
Old 07-15-03, 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by purplechoe
Is this a ceratin web site that sells the original Star Wars Trilogy dvds? If so, all of their dvds are bootlegs!!! I would rather spend the extra $5 and get the real thing.
Alas, that is not an option in the case of the Star wars Original Trilogy. I would buy that too, from a legit source, if it were available. George Lucas and LucasCorp have no business complaining about bootleges of those movies, when they stubbornly refuse to release them on DVD!
Old 07-15-03, 09:09 AM
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But if there's major traffic in bootleg version of the SW trilogy [or any movie], couldn't that potentially remove the motivation for an official release? That's the problem that occurred 6-10 years ago with anime; there was so much fansubbing and under-the-counter sales going on, that many producers didn't think they would recoup their costs in officially translating anime that people already had. A few companies took the risk, and it took off.
Although it could be argued that the existence of bootlegs, and the popularity of certain films on bootleg, should help inspire a legit release, since it shows the demand is there.
But just because Lucas [or whoever] doesn't want to release something in a certain format [for whatever reasons], doesn't give the bootleggers the right to do what they do. Uneducated consumers might buy them [thus rewarding criminals], be disappointed in a [usually] inferior product, and transfer those feelings to the legitimate creator [Lucas], because they don't know any better.
That said, I do wish Lucas would release the trilogy on DVD; I think the technology is there to do what he wants with it. But it's his right as a creator/copyright owner. [I also want all the Cardcaptor Sakura and Cowboy Bebop DVD's, which are available on ebay in 'region free' versions for less than 30 bucks; but I'm saving my money, looking for deals, and buying the legit.]

Another sign to be wary of when dealing with Ebay is:
if it says 'Does not include all the extras', like I am seeing more of nowadays;
and if the picture in the auction listing is a stock photo of the disk, taken from some official website. It's much easier to tell if there is a personally-taken photo of the actual item that is being listed [good advice with any ebay auction, actually.]
Old 07-15-03, 09:21 AM
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i think star wars is a poor example... it is no anime (ie limited audience). trust me, george lucas has plenty of motivation to make an official release (ie moolah).

of course, bootlegging is wrong. but frankly, i don't search for bootlegs NOR do i read up on all the technical ways to determine whether one is or not. some of you guys sound like deputy sherriffs.

i think boc4ever's suggestion is probably the best way to go; buy from real vendors and trust that they've done their part.
Old 07-15-03, 09:40 AM
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Originally posted by Qui-Gon John
Alas, that is not an option in the case of the Star wars Original Trilogy. I would buy that too, from a legit source, if it were available. George Lucas and LucasCorp have no business complaining about bootleges of those movies, when they stubbornly refuse to release them on DVD!
I'm sorry, but I don't understand that rationale.

They have no reason to complain when someone illegally steals their material and profits from it?
Old 07-15-03, 10:28 AM
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Copyright is a contracted monopoly between the public and artists. It serves the public good by encouraging the creation of new works of art and it does that through granting artists a limited time in which to profit from their work, after which the art passes into the public domain and is available to all for free. Despite the radical, self-indulgent twistings of copyright law in recent decades by distributors, that original bargain is the only moral and ethically defensible position of what is effectively a state-granted monopoly in an otherwise free market system.

Given that historical context, Lucas and company are not living up to their end of the bargain. They have works of art for which they have been granted copyright, yet they are not willing to sell it to the public. Instead relying on the recent and immoral trend of indefinite copyright extensions to eventually, maybe, one day, bring the product to market. As they aren't living up to their end of the bargain, neither should the public be required to live up to their end of the bargain either.
Old 07-15-03, 11:28 AM
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SPOT ON Jah-Wren Ryel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Couldn't have said it better myself.
Old 07-15-03, 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by Dave C
I'm sorry, but I don't understand that rationale.

They have no reason to complain when someone illegally steals their material and profits from it?
Yep. Because all they'd have to do is release quality anamorphic versions of the Original Trilogy and it would drive most of the bootleggers of Star Wars out of business. Who would buy an inferior, non-anamorphic bootleg when for just a few sheckels more they can have the legit high-quality anamorphic versions.

And by the way, how are the bootleggers "stealing profits" from LucasCorp. They're not frickin' selling the Original Trilogy, so their profits are ZERO, all due to their own arrogance.

Last edited by Qui-Gon John; 07-15-03 at 11:47 AM.
Old 07-15-03, 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by Qui-Gon John
Yep. Because all they'd have to do is release quality anamorphic versions of the Original Trilogy and it would drive most of the bootleggers of Star Wars out of business. Who would buy an inferior, non-anamorphic bootleg when for just a few sheckels more they can have the legit high-quality anamorphic versions.

And by the way, how are the bootleggers "stealing profits" from LucasCorp. They're not frickin' selling the Original Trilogy, so their profits are ZERO, all due to their own arrogance.
Because when they do eventually make it available legally people who have bought the bootlegs won't purchase it.

I totally disagree with your logic on this guys, but you've obviously put a lot more thought into it than I have. The whole illegal part just has a bad ring to it.

Sorry you guys are so upset about this. Maybe you could channel that anger to be a force for good in the universe.
Old 07-15-03, 12:15 PM
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I agree that the bootleggers don't directly 'steal profits' from Lucas [or anyone else from whom they bootleg], but they are stealing the work. And I do think Lucas etc could make zillions of dollars if they would release a good DVD edition, but it's his right not to do so.
Copyright law is certainly a very indepth and confusing realm of law, and I certainly am no lawyer, but the argument of 'After x years it becomes public domain', and Jah-Wren Ryel's implication that they 'owe' the consumer a release, or to let the copyright slide, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. [Jah-Wren Ryel: if you are paraphrasing some actual legal opinion, I will yield to that interpretation.] It's like saying 'This piece of art that I created [say, a sculpture, to make it slightly more concrete] is only mine for X years, then it goes to the public. If I keep it in my garage past X years, then I 'owe' it to the public to sell it.'

I can think of very few cases in which a person who creates an item, whether concrete or 'virtual', has a 'legal' responsibility to sell it. He may have a moral responsibility if, say, it's a cure for cancer or whatever.

While in the case of the bootleggers/Star Wars, they are not affecting Lucascorp's profits, but they are profiting from stolen material. Just because it doesn't directly remove a possession from the owner doesn't mean it's not stealing. And then to profit from it--it's like the difference between an honest crook and a dishonest crook. If someone had a bootleg of Star Wars, and posted it on the net for everyone to download, or gave away DVD's, that would be an 'honest crook.' But to sell obviously inferior stolen product, especially if it is represented as legit [I don't know if it is, in this example], that is a dishonest crook. Again, like the bootleggers on ebay. They steal/copy some things which have legitimate releases; then sell it. To me, that is only one step above a porn spammer.

Qui Gon: Unfortunately, some people would still buy the illegitimate version: Some people wouldn't know any better, as to why anamorphic is better; and some just see the dollar signs--if the legit costs 35$, and the boot costs 15$, they'll buy the boot. Many, perhaps most, of the bootleggers would lose business, but they would just get craftier and choose another hot item.
Old 07-15-03, 12:26 PM
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The problem with the logic is that so many people believe the world OWES them something, and it's their god-given right to take it. If Lucas doesn't feel like selling his movies in DVD format, that's HIS right. It's HIS work. NOBODY has the right to take his work and do with it as they please, REGARDLESS of what he does with it. It's not your RIGHT to view his movies on DVD....by all accounts, it's your PRIVLEDGE to do so. I mean, that's like saying that your neighbor has a classic vette sitting in his garage that he hasn't driven in 2 years, so it's your right to take it and drive it, because when he bought it, he agreed to drive it around so that everybody could admire it. Please!

Why not just use this logic: Lucas already made money off the theatre release and the VHS sales, not to mention the thousands of royalties. I feel that he's made as much money as he should off these movies, so it is my right to bootleg them.

Last edited by imp66; 07-15-03 at 12:31 PM.
Old 07-15-03, 01:48 PM
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"It's not your RIGHT to view his movies on DVD....by all accounts, it's your PRIVLEDGE to do so"

It is my right if I have bought these movies in any form. Hence the RIGHT in copyright. I have a right to do what I please with my copy!

"it's your PRIVLEDGE to do so"

And again it is my right not a privledge.

"I mean, that's like saying that your neighbor has a classic vette sitting in his garage that he hasn't driven in 2 years, so it's your right to take it and drive it, because when he bought it, he agreed to drive it around so that everybody could admire it."

That's a completley ridiculous statement. Look at any poster store and you'll see what Jah-Wren Ryel is trying to say. The Mona Lisa for example. I can go out right now and get one. Is that stealing from DaVinci....I think not. Are th profits for this poster going to the surviving members of the DaVinci....again I think not. We are talking about a piece of art that is being held back for no reason what so ever. By the time he gets around to realeasing these movies DVD will be dead and we will have HD DVD at which point Mr. lucas will refuse to release them in that format. It's just ridiculous. He's pissing off the same people that put him in the position he is in today. So I say screw'em! He has no respect for his fans or else he would give them what they want...plain and simple.

Last edited by C_Fletch; 07-15-03 at 01:55 PM.
Old 07-15-03, 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by Jah-Wren Ryel
Given that historical context, Lucas and company are not living up to their end of the bargain. They have works of art for which they have been granted copyright, yet they are not willing to sell it to the public.
No - they are not willing to sell it to the public in the FORMAT YOU WANT. I already have the SW films on Laserdisc and had them at one time on tape. There are legal copys out there to be had - you just choose to ingore them.

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